Kyrsten Sinema says she makes decisions by listening to business leaders, when asked about PRO Act

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Today I learned that a majority passing legislation is an authoritarian fantasy.

But we get it there Rahm, you don't want actual policy changes Democrats are just placeholder not Republicans for you. You can just cool it a little on your endless quest to scold those damn kids who expect legislatures to do things.

Rules are rules.  You don't like 'em?  That's fine, change the rules.  There's a mechanism in place to do that.

What you can't do is just decide to ignore the rules when you don't like them.  That's like if you threw a pitch, it was a foul, and you said "screw you ump, my entire team voted and we said it was a strike, so we win."  I don't support that, a majority of the country doesn't support that -- but that's not a majority that matters to you I suppose.

A lot of this is driven by sour grapes.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Today I learned that a majority passing legislation is an authoritarian fantasy.

But we get it there Rahm, you don't want actual policy changes Democrats are just placeholder not Republicans for you. You can just cool it a little on your endless quest to scold those damn kids who expect legislatures to do things.

Rules are rules.  You don't like 'em?  That's fine, change the rules.  There's a mechanism in place to do that.

What you can't do is just decide to ignore the rules when you don't like them.  That's like if you threw a pitch, it was a foul, and you said "screw you ump, my entire team voted and we said it was a strike, so we win."  I don't support that, a majority of the country doesn't support that -- but that's not a majority that matters to you I suppose.

Ok this is just ridiculous. The mechanism in place for changing rules is overruling the parliamentarian. And Senate rules are not laws. And government isn't a game. We have no obligation to be 'fair' to a minority party. The whole point of democracy is that outcomes reflect the popular will and current Senate rules prevent that.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Today I learned that a majority passing legislation is an authoritarian fantasy.

But we get it there Rahm, you don't want actual policy changes Democrats are just placeholder not Republicans for you. You can just cool it a little on your endless quest to scold those damn kids who expect legislatures to do things.

Rules are rules.  You don't like 'em?  That's fine, change the rules.  There's a mechanism in place to do that.

What you can't do is just decide to ignore the rules when you don't like them.  That's like if you threw a pitch, it was a foul, and you said "screw you ump, my entire team voted and we said it was a strike, so we win."  I don't support that, a majority of the country doesn't support that -- but that's not a majority that matters to you I suppose.

A lot of this is driven by sour grapes.

Yeah bunch of whiners that can't just accept that an entrenched oligarchy has a defacto veto power.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Today I learned that a majority passing legislation is an authoritarian fantasy.

But we get it there Rahm, you don't want actual policy changes Democrats are just placeholder not Republicans for you. You can just cool it a little on your endless quest to scold those damn kids who expect legislatures to do things.

Rules are rules.  You don't like 'em?  That's fine, change the rules.  There's a mechanism in place to do that.

What you can't do is just decide to ignore the rules when you don't like them.  That's like if you threw a pitch, it was a foul, and you said "screw you ump, my entire team voted and we said it was a strike, so we win."  I don't support that, a majority of the country doesn't support that -- but that's not a majority that matters to you I suppose.

A lot of this is driven by sour grapes.

Yeah bunch of whiners that can't just accept that an entrenched oligarchy has a defacto veto power.

Sour grapes that the swing votes in the Senate are a moderate woman with moderate convictions and an older white moderate man from West Virginia? You bet.
Plenty of people have misguided ideas on policy and misguided ideas about how the government out to work. (And on both left AND right)

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Today I learned that a majority passing legislation is an authoritarian fantasy.

But we get it there Rahm, you don't want actual policy changes Democrats are just placeholder not Republicans for you. You can just cool it a little on your endless quest to scold those damn kids who expect legislatures to do things.

Rules are rules.  You don't like 'em?  That's fine, change the rules.  There's a mechanism in place to do that.

What you can't do is just decide to ignore the rules when you don't like them.  That's like if you threw a pitch, it was a foul, and you said "screw you ump, my entire team voted and we said it was a strike, so we win."  I don't support that, a majority of the country doesn't support that -- but that's not a majority that matters to you I suppose.

A lot of this is driven by sour grapes.

Yeah bunch of whiners that can't just accept that an entrenched oligarchy has a defacto veto power.

Sour grapes that the swing votes in the Senate are a moderate woman with moderate convictions and an older white moderate man from West Virginia? You bet.
Plenty of people have misguided ideas on policy and misguided ideas about how the government out to work. (And on both left AND right)

Libelum Vetos aren't a moderate position. The are the position of someone willing to run the nation into the ground to protect their personal prerogatives.

And the most pernicious misconception on how government out to work is that politicians from both sides must accept something, as a matter of principle, for it to be implemented. And it's close cousin on the policy side, let's hurt everyone a little so that it's fair. Something, something gored oxen.

[GeneralMacArthur]

what even is the point of having a parliamentarian if the majority party can just ignore her whenever the rules get in their way?

There's an opportunity at the start of every Senate session to set the rules for the upcoming session.  That is how previous changes have been made.  If you don't like the rules, you can change the rules.  You can't just arbitrarily decide to throw out the rules you don't like mid-game.

It's just like the NFL Season. At the start of the season, you can change the rules, and every year they do change some rules.  But you can't change the rules in the middle of the game.  And you can't just have your team decide "well we want it to be a TD so we're overruling the referees, Saints win."

But even this argument is moot because in order to buy the "it's Sinema's fault we don't have a $15 minimum wage" argument, you also have to believe that:

A) All 42 Dems who voted Yes in a political show vote would also have voted Yes on an actual bill to raise the minimum wage to $15.
B) The 8 Dems who voted No in the political show vote were actually in favor of $15 but were cowed by Sinema/Manchin into voting No.
C) All 50 Dems would also have voted to break the rules specifically so a $15 minimum wage could pass

None of these three points are true.  But people believe them anyway.  So it's not even an argument about ethics or consequences or what's right... it's just straight up reality that the bill was never going to pass.  It was not written with intent of passing.  Sanders came up with the idea just to divide the Dems because he knew it wasn't going to pass.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Beware the Knight Templar who disregards norms and institutions under the conviction they are right and not only considers themselves the only ones who can judge what is and isn't true and is good policy but is prepared to run roughshod over everyone who might oppose them as if they are nothing.

[Sestak]

It was not written with intent of passing.  Sanders came up with the idea just to divide the Dems because he knew it wasn't going to pass.

Sanders didn't even write this, though? This was part of the text that was in the House bill (and in fact passed the House with all but two Dem votes). The parliamentarian forced it out of the Senate bill, then a vote was held to send it back in. The notion that Bernie Sanders is this secret saboteur deliberately trying to sabotage the Democratic party (while pretty much consistently holding to and supporting the party's line as budget chair), while Senators who actively work against the party and its majority should be considered loyal members, is ridiculous.

There's an opportunity at the start of every Senate session to set the rules for the upcoming session.  That is how previous changes have been made.  If you don't like the rules, you can change the rules.  You can't just arbitrarily decide to throw out the rules you don't like mid-game.

As I have said before this is blatantly false. The operation of the Senate works on a very precedent-based system - even the Senate website page on the rules makes a clear note on the role of precedents set by real-time Senate votes.

The parliamentarian acts as an advisor to help work through this set of rules and precedents; since Senators who preside over the chamber are politicians and have not memorized the details of all of these Senate precedents and rules, the parliamentarian advises them on what to do/say on any given point based on the established rules and precedents of the Senate. None of this precludes the Senate from setting new precedents to change the procedures if it so wishes.

[Diabolical Materialism]

Beware the Knight Templar who disregards norms and institutions under the conviction they are right and not only considers themselves the only ones who can judge what is and isn't true and is good policy but is prepared to run roughshod over everyone who might oppose them as if they are nothing.

What the f#ck are you talking about

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Beware the Knight Templar who disregards norms and institutions under the conviction they are right and not only considers themselves the only ones who can judge what is and isn't true and is good policy but is prepared to run roughshod over everyone who might oppose them as if they are nothing.

What the f#ck are you talking about

The importance of institutional stability and moderate pragmatism in governance, mainly? You know, the kind of stuff that actually makes the government work in practice.

[Diabolical Materialism]

Beware the Knight Templar who disregards norms and institutions under the conviction they are right and not only considers themselves the only ones who can judge what is and isn't true and is good policy but is prepared to run roughshod over everyone who might oppose them as if they are nothing.

What the f#ck are you talking about

The importance of institutional stability and pragmatism in governance, mainly? You know, the kind of stuff that actually makes the government work in practice.

Interesting, do you have another tv tropes page I can read more about this on?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Beware the Knight Templar who disregards norms and institutions under the conviction they are right and not only considers themselves the only ones who can judge what is and isn't true and is good policy but is prepared to run roughshod over everyone who might oppose them as if they are nothing.

What the f#ck are you talking about

The importance of institutional stability and pragmatism in governance, mainly? You know, the kind of stuff that actually makes the government work in practice.

Interesting, do you have another tv tropes page I can read more about this on?

I don't see the point of doing that. I pulled that up only to make it easier for others to flesh out their understanding of what I was talking about.
If you want to argue that
"Sometimes, the Forces of Light and Goodness get a little bit too hardcore. In a deadly combination of Well-Intentioned Extremist, The Fundamentalist, Moral Guardians, and sometimes He Who Fights Monsters, they get blinded by themselves and their ideals, and this extreme becomes tyrannical sociopathy. It's not the Forces of Darkness' fault, but they are laughing their asses off and feel so satisfied knowing that they were right."
isn't in any way relevant to politics, then say so.

[Badger]

Beware the Knight Templar who disregards norms and institutions under the conviction they are right and not only considers themselves the only ones who can judge what is and isn't true and is good policy but is prepared to run roughshod over everyone who might oppose them as if they are nothing.

What the f#ck are you talking about

The importance of institutional stability and pragmatism in governance, mainly? You know, the kind of stuff that actually makes the government work in practice.

Interesting, do you have another tv tropes page I can read more about this on?

I don't see the point of doing that. I pulled that up only to make it easier for others to flesh out their understanding of what I was talking about.
If you want to argue that
"Sometimes, the Forces of Light and Goodness get a little bit too hardcore. In a deadly combination of Well-Intentioned Extremist, The Fundamentalist, Moral Guardians, and sometimes He Who Fights Monsters, they get blinded by themselves and their ideals, and this extreme becomes tyrannical sociopathy. It's not the Forces of Darkness' fault, but they are laughing their asses off and feel so satisfied knowing that they were right."
isn't in any way relevant to politics, then say so.

Are you high right now?

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Beware the Knight Templar who disregards norms and institutions under the conviction they are right and not only considers themselves the only ones who can judge what is and isn't true and is good policy but is prepared to run roughshod over everyone who might oppose them as if they are nothing.

What the f#ck are you talking about

The importance of institutional stability and pragmatism in governance, mainly? You know, the kind of stuff that actually makes the government work in practice.

Interesting, do you have another tv tropes page I can read more about this on?

I don't see the point of doing that. I pulled that up only to make it easier for others to flesh out their understanding of what I was talking about.
If you want to argue that
"Sometimes, the Forces of Light and Goodness get a little bit too hardcore. In a deadly combination of Well-Intentioned Extremist, The Fundamentalist, Moral Guardians, and sometimes He Who Fights Monsters, they get blinded by themselves and their ideals, and this extreme becomes tyrannical sociopathy. It's not the Forces of Darkness' fault, but they are laughing their asses off and feel so satisfied knowing that they were right."
isn't in any way relevant to politics, then say so.

Are you high right now?

No. shrug.

[DS0816]

https://twitter.com/kenklippenstein/status/1385001322391429127

#VoteBlueNoMatterWho

[GeneralMacArthur]

Just noticed that this whole thread is based on a tweet from an Intercept pundit, doing what Intercept pundits do -- taking something out of context, twisting and editorializing heavily with his own opinions to make it seem like she said something she didn't actually say.  Bet nobody watched the actual clip.

[Santander]

Just noticed that this whole thread is based on a tweet from an Intercept pundit, doing what Intercept pundits do -- taking something out of context, twisting and editorializing heavily with his own opinions to make it seem like she said something she didn't actually say.  Bet nobody watched the actual clip.

Change your avatar to blue already.

[darklordoftech]

The massive hate train for Kyrsten Sinema is utterly ridiculous.  I'm surprised at the level of restraint she's shown given how dedicated a large part of the internet is to turning her into the next Hillary Clinton.

She’s more Joe Lieberman than Hillary Clinton.

[Morning in Atlas]

Beware the Knight Templar who disregards norms and institutions under the conviction they are right and not only considers themselves the only ones who can judge what is and isn't true and is good policy but is prepared to run roughshod over everyone who might oppose them as if they are nothing.

What the f#ck are you talking about

The importance of institutional stability and pragmatism in governance, mainly? You know, the kind of stuff that actually makes the government work in practice.

Interesting, do you have another tv tropes page I can read more about this on?

I don't see the point of doing that. I pulled that up only to make it easier for others to flesh out their understanding of what I was talking about.
If you want to argue that
"Sometimes, the Forces of Light and Goodness get a little bit too hardcore. In a deadly combination of Well-Intentioned Extremist, The Fundamentalist, Moral Guardians, and sometimes He Who Fights Monsters, they get blinded by themselves and their ideals, and this extreme becomes tyrannical sociopathy. It's not the Forces of Darkness' fault, but they are laughing their asses off and feel so satisfied knowing that they were right."
isn't in any way relevant to politics, then say so.

Are you high right now?

Do you ever get nervous?

[GeneralMacArthur]

The massive hate train for Kyrsten Sinema is utterly ridiculous.  I'm surprised at the level of restraint she's shown given how dedicated a large part of the internet is to turning her into the next Hillary Clinton.

She’s more Joe Lieberman than Hillary Clinton.

Call me when she actually singlehandedly torpedoes important legislation.  Right now everyone's acting like she singlehandedly killed the minimum wage amendment when there are 18 other senators who also voted no that you need to flip to get to 60, and there probably would have been more if it actually had a chance of passing since plenty of Dems who oppose $15 voted Yes anyway just to avoid primary challenges.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

The massive hate train for Kyrsten Sinema is utterly ridiculous.  I'm surprised at the level of restraint she's shown given how dedicated a large part of the internet is to turning her into the next Hillary Clinton.

She’s more Joe Lieberman than Hillary Clinton.

Call me when she actually singlehandedly torpedoes important legislation.  Right now everyone's acting like she singlehandedly killed the minimum wage amendment when there are 18 other senators who also voted no that you need to flip to get to 60, and there probably would have been more if it actually had a chance of passing since plenty of Dems who oppose $15 voted Yes anyway just to avoid primary challenges.

She is the one (of two, but the other one is chronically inconsistent) insisting on keeping a weird rules glitch that makes 60 votes required to close debate, effectively forestalling regular legislation.
So yes, until that changes she is torpedoing allot of major legislation. PRO Act, HR1, ect., less important than giving extra-constititional powers to Republican conference leaders.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Just noticed that this whole thread is based on a tweet from an Intercept pundit, doing what Intercept pundits do -- taking something out of context, twisting and editorializing heavily with his own opinions to make it seem like she said something she didn't actually say.  Bet nobody watched the actual clip.

Change your avatar to blue already.

The tweet was bait, tbf.

[Spectator]

The amount of hate Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin get when they haven’t actually opposed anything of significance where their votes would matter will never make sense to me.

[MT Treasurer]

The amount of hate Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin get when they haven’t actually opposed anything of significance where their votes would matter will never make sense to me.

I like how their shtick is even working on an audience like this yet many are convinced that Sinema doesn’t know what she’s doing.

[Spectator]

The amount of hate Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin get when they haven’t actually opposed anything of significance where their votes would matter will never make sense to me.

I like how their shtick is even working on an audience like this yet many are convinced that Sinema doesn’t know what she’s doing.

For real. Let’s be honest, her and Manchin will both vote for HR1 and DC Statehood if Schumer has 48 other votes already.