Was 9/11 an inside job?

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Yes (sane and rational)

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Inside job meaning ordered by Bush and carried out by the US govt. Seems like half the so called tea partiers on FB believe that crap.

The truthers are the half of the tea party that are actual libertarians rather than just repackaged Bush Republicans upset about a black Muslim president.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

No. Even if I think he would have done it if he'd ever had the capacity to think of it, George Bush was just too much of a dumb bastard to ever mastermind something that massive.

George Bush would not have had to have personally masterminded the logistics of such an operation, anymore so than he personally ordered the particular battle tactics being used on the ground in Iraq.

That doesn't mean he's absolved of responsibility for things that went on under his authority.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

No. Even if I think he would have done it if he'd ever had the capacity to think of it, George Bush was just too much of a dumb bastard to ever mastermind something that massive.

George Bush would not have had to have personally masterminded the logistics of such an operation, anymore so than he personally ordered the particular battle tactics being used on the ground in Iraq.

That doesn't mean he's absolved of responsibility for things that went on under his authority.

Maybe it's because the aliens who hybridized humans have influence over human governments? Wouldn't David Icke agree?

I'm not sure how that addresses my post, sorry. 9/11 Liars sure have a strange way of debating.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

No. Even if I think he would have done it if he'd ever had the capacity to think of it, George Bush was just too much of a dumb bastard to ever mastermind something that massive.

George Bush would not have had to have personally masterminded the logistics of such an operation, anymore so than he personally ordered the particular battle tactics being used on the ground in Iraq.

That doesn't mean he's absolved of responsibility for things that went on under his authority.

Maybe it's because the aliens who hybridized humans have influence over human governments? Wouldn't David Icke agree?

I'm not sure how that addresses my post, sorry. 9/11 Liars sure have a strange way of debating.

So, why don't you provide some evidence for your hypothesis? Or do you still remember being destroyed on this topic the last time you debated it?

Oh? Go ahead and dig up the old thread, Gus, let's see who it was who refused to ever debate the facts.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

The 9/11 truth conspiracy is the stupidest thing I have ever heard. Bush wasn't THAT evil, was he?

The 9/11 lie conspiracy sold by the Bush administration is quite a bit stupider, I assure you.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

I recently discovered to my horror that one of my brothers is a 9-11 truther.  I spent a lot of time talking to him about the process of preparing a controlled demolition of a building and how buildings collapse under such a process as opposed to how the twin towers collapsed.  I also spent a lot of time showing him photos and testimony of plane wreckage at the Pentagon, to refute the theory that the building had been hit by a missile.  The evidence I gave him had utterly no effect.  Trying to talk to him made me appalled that we in this country can't even agree on relatively easily accessible facts anymore.

Al Qaeda attacked the U.S. on 9/11/01.  The U.S. government had no bigger role in this specific attack than underestimating lots of cues that something like it would happen, and not keeping a close enough watch on who was in the country.  That's what the facts establish.  And that's already bad enough.  No conspiracy theories necessary or true.

I've run into the same thing debating these so called "truthers". They laughed at me when I pointed to a Popular Mechanics article which basically took every truther question and obliterated it. They basically tell me that I am "brainwashed" by the government, etc. lol Instead of debating these losers it's really just best to make fun of them really.

Except that "Popular Mechanics" hit piece has been thoroughly debunked countless times, just like all the other "Debunking 9/11 truth" nonsense.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

For the record, here is Libertas debate piece providing evidence for the facts of the matter:

Libertas, I'm curious, how come none of the millions upon millions of the engineers educated all over the world, many in countries that are hostile to the US and many with anti-American personal political convictions have pointed out the impossibility of this happening?

Plenty of engineers have dismissed the official government conspiracy theory as bunkum. Not that appeal to authority is a legitimate argument to begin with.

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Because that would be ridiculous. Muslims would not have had inside access to the WTC to plant the necessary explosives.

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Um, no the specifics of the WTC collapse are very much relevant to this discussion.

He doesn't of course actually mention any engineers. Even if there were plenty he doesn't really explain why this isn't accepted as universal fact. I know many engineers personally. My brother is an engineer. Why wouldn't any of the engineers I know tell me that this is impossible if it really is?

Again, this isn't rocket science. Construction engineering isn't a field containing 5 people who can be bribed or threatened or anything. There are lots and lots.

On the more important point, Libertas has also had this to say:

The airplanes that crashed into the World Trade Center were real. That doesn't conflict with the controlled demolition theory.

Yes...but why? Why fly the airplanes into the buildings at all if you're doing controlled demolition anyway? I don't see what the point would be in adding unnecessary risk of getting caught.

Because that's what the whole terror attack was about. The idea of commercial airliners that we've all been on being hijacked so easily with box-cutters and then crashed into iconic American steel skyscrapers had a psychological effect on people. It unnerved them.

Plus it also seemed plausible to the average American who wasn't going to delve deeply to ever question what the government said.

If the buildings just started collapsing out of nowhere, it would have looked pretty darn suspicious. Islamic extremists being able to set up a controlled demolition of the twin 110-story towers of the World Trade Center would have stretched believability too far even for the average unthinking American.

I still don't see why muslims being able to set up controlled demolition would have stretched the imagination more than something which is, according to Libertas, physically impossible and something that millions of people around the world would easily spot as physically impossible.

Anyway, Libertas, don't you think there was any physically possible way that Muslim terrorists could have destroyed WTC? If there is one, then why wouldn't the government have done it that way if they wanted to frame Muslim terrorists?

If there were Muslims involved in the September 11 attacks, it was incidental. Whoever did it was doing it with the knowledge and backing of the Bush-Cheney regime.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Really the biggest hole in the theories (out of the many) is where the people willing to be suicide bombers came from if they were not much more than mercenaries basically.

No, there's no "hole" there. There were (and are) plenty of fanatics willing to blow themselves up for al-CIAda to recruit.

Guys, guys, GUYS! As much as I have to remind myself this (and frequently forget ), Libertas's primary ideological adherence on the forum isn't conservative or libertarian, it's "attention whore who thinks he's 'edgy'".

Libertas is a truther nut (or a nut who's also a truther; take your pick). Don't feed the troll.

Officially starting the countdown to when I ignore my own words here.

I'm not edgy. This stuff is mainstream now.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Really the biggest hole in the theories (out of the many) is where the people willing to be suicide bombers came from if they were not much more than mercenaries basically.

No, there's no "hole" there. There were (and are) plenty of fanatics willing to blow themselves up for al-CIAda to recruit.

There are plenty of people willing to blow themselves up to benefit neocon corporate conspiracies or whatever?

No, willing to blow themselves up for Allah (though really motivated by politics rather than religion).

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Libertas, you're still ignoring my question: if the government faked this then why did they do it in a way that muslims couldn't possibly have done it and tried to fake that it was done in a way that no one could have done? Why not just do it in a way that would have been possible for Muslim terrorists and leave it at that?

Muslims may have hijacked the planes. But they didn't bring the towers down.

People are easily fooled. The government knew that the overwhelming majority of people would just accept whatever story they put out uncritically. There are even useful idiots who do the regime's job for them in attacking any questioning of the 9/11 story as unpatriotic/retarded/offensive/etc. We see that on display right here in this thread. People don't want to believe that they've been lied to- and that they've fallen for the lies- by our oh-so-benevolent government that's always looking to protect us.

As P.T. Barnum said...you can fool some of the people all of the time; you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can never fool all of the people all of the time.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Muslims may have hijacked the planes. But they didn't bring the towers down.

Correct.  The planes the Muslims were flying brought down the planes; but that is just a technicality.

I'm glad you agree that the Muslims did not bring down the towers.

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What statements? It's incredibly easy for the government and it's media outlets to concoct "evidence" like that. Bin Laden made statements to a Pakistani newspaper a few weeks after 9/11 explicitly denying involvement in the attacks.

"I have already said that I am not involved in the 11 September attacks in the United States. As a Muslim, I try my best to avoid telling a lie. I had no knowledge of these attacks, nor do I consider the killing of innocent women, children and other humans as an appreciable act. Islam strictly forbids causing harm to innocent women, children and other people. Such a practice is forbidden even in the course of a battle. It is the United States, which is perpetrating every maltreatment on women, children and common people of other faiths, particularly the followers of Islam. All that is going on in Palestine for the last 11 months is sufficient to call the wrath of God upon the United States and Israel. There is also a warning for those Muslim countries, which witnessed all these as a silent spectator. What had earlier been done to the innocent people of Iraq, Chechnya and Bosnia? Only one conclusion could be derived from the indifference of the United States and the West to these acts of terror and the patronage of the tyrants by these powers that America is an anti-Islamic power and it is patronizing the anti-Islamic forces. Its friendship with the Muslim countries is just a show, rather deceit. By enticing or intimidating these countries, the United States is forcing them to play a role of its choice. Put a glance all around and you will see that the slaves of the United States are either rulers or enemies of Muslims.... I have already said that we are not hostile to the United States. We are against the [U.S. Government] system, which makes other nations slaves of the United States, or forces them to mortgage their political and economic freedom. This system is totally in the control of the American Jews, whose first priority is Israel, not the United States. It is clear that the American people are themselves the slaves of the Jews and are forced to live according to the principles and laws laid down by them. So the punishment should reach Israel. In fact, it is Israel, which is giving a blood bath to innocent Muslims and the U.S. is not uttering a single word. "
--Osama bin Laden, Ummat, 28 September 2001

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Then what about the multitude of statements later on contradicting those?  Especially his own statements justifying the attacks in the context (albeit his own twisted version) of Islam?

No reason to believe those over this. Osama became a boogeyman that nobody could find. The U.S. government could release whatever statements it wanted; not like anyone could call up Bin Laden to verify.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Libertas, you're still ignoring my question: if the government faked this then why did they do it in a way that muslims couldn't possibly have done it and tried to fake that it was done in a way that no one could have done? Why not just do it in a way that would have been possible for Muslim terrorists and leave it at that?

Muslims may have hijacked the planes. But they didn't bring the towers down.

People are easily fooled. The government knew that the overwhelming majority of people would just accept whatever story they put out uncritically. There are even useful idiots who do the regime's job for them in attacking any questioning of the 9/11 story as unpatriotic/retarded/offensive/etc. We see that on display right here in this thread. People don't want to believe that they've been lied to- and that they've fallen for the lies- by our oh-so-benevolent government that's always looking to protect us.

As P.T. Barnum said...you can fool some of the people all of the time; you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can never fool all of the people all of the time.

What a bunch of paranoid, delusional nonsense. My uncle was a steamfitter who was in the towers on 9/11- he was working on the building and you know what: no explosives, anywhere.  Oh wait, maybe he is also part of the grand conspiracy.  I also know a bunch of people who were working for Port Authority who were tasked to protect those buildings and would have noticed explosives being planted.  I guess those hundreds more people are in on it and I must look at them all as shifty bastards now.

Skepticism is a healthy emotion-paranoia is not.

Anecdotal evidence is not really evidence at all. The fact that your uncle didn't see explosives does not mean that there weren't any.

As William S. Burroughs said, paranoia means having all the facts.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Libertas, you're still ignoring my question: if the government faked this then why did they do it in a way that muslims couldn't possibly have done it and tried to fake that it was done in a way that no one could have done? Why not just do it in a way that would have been possible for Muslim terrorists and leave it at that?

Muslims may have hijacked the planes. But they didn't bring the towers down.

People are easily fooled. The government knew that the overwhelming majority of people would just accept whatever story they put out uncritically. There are even useful idiots who do the regime's job for them in attacking any questioning of the 9/11 story as unpatriotic/retarded/offensive/etc. We see that on display right here in this thread. People don't want to believe that they've been lied to- and that they've fallen for the lies- by our oh-so-benevolent government that's always looking to protect us.

As P.T. Barnum said...you can fool some of the people all of the time; you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can never fool all of the people all of the time.

What a bunch of paranoid, delusional nonsense. My uncle was a steamfitter who was in the towers on 9/11- he was working on the building and you know what: no explosives, anywhere.  Oh wait, maybe he is also part of the grand conspiracy.  I also know a bunch of people who were working for Port Authority who were tasked to protect those buildings and would have noticed explosives being planted.  I guess those hundreds more people are in on it and I must look at them all as shifty bastards now.

Skepticism is a healthy emotion-paranoia is not.

Anecdotal evidence is not really evidence at all. The fact that your uncle didn't see explosives does not mean that there weren't any.

As William S. Burroughs said, paranoia means having all the facts.

Haha, Ive never seen you provide a bit of evidence. You believe what you want to believe on all issues despite the facts. It is not m uncle it is thousands and tens of thousands of people. What you suggest is simply not possible and you have always refused to engage with other posters when you have been proven wrong.  It is really useless to even reply.  I am not sure what your goals are in life, but I fear your current attitude may get in your way.    

Evidence for what? You people who adhere to Bush's story don't want to discuss any real issues, you just make these kinds of vague statements that can't possibly be refuted. Oh it's "simply not possible" because you said so.

It's funny how emotional you people get over something like this. "He called my president a liar, how dare he?!"


Btw, a Bush-Linked Company Handled Security for the WTC, Dulles and United

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

No reason to believe those over this. Osama became a boogeyman that nobody could find. The U.S. government could release whatever statements it wanted; not like anyone could call up Bin Laden to verify.

We don't need to call him.  There are videos of him speaking - definitely Osama, not some American actor (just to head off your next idiotic delusional argument).  Why is it, then, that we can't find him?  Because he's in hiding.  Why is he in hiding?  Because he knows that if caught, he'll go on trial for his crimes, and he wants to avoid facing justice for what he has done.

Oh, definitely Osama? Because you've studied exactly what the real Osama bin Laden looked like and could tell who he is immediately from a mysterious low-quality video that somehow manages to show up on fedgov's doorstep? Riiiight....

Not to mention they could easily change the audio track even if they did use a video of the real Osama, to make him say what they wanted him to say.


By the way, Afghanistan offered to hand over Osama bin Laden to the U.S. if evidence were provided that he was behind the attacks. The Bush regime refused the offer, saying "There's no need to discuss innocence or guilt. We know he's guilty".

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Libertas, you're still ignoring my question: if the government faked this then why did they do it in a way that muslims couldn't possibly have done it and tried to fake that it was done in a way that no one could have done? Why not just do it in a way that would have been possible for Muslim terrorists and leave it at that?

Muslims may have hijacked the planes. But they didn't bring the towers down.

People are easily fooled. The government knew that the overwhelming majority of people would just accept whatever story they put out uncritically. There are even useful idiots who do the regime's job for them in attacking any questioning of the 9/11 story as unpatriotic/retarded/offensive/etc. We see that on display right here in this thread. People don't want to believe that they've been lied to- and that they've fallen for the lies- by our oh-so-benevolent government that's always looking to protect us.

As P.T. Barnum said...you can fool some of the people all of the time; you can fool all of the people some of the time, but you can never fool all of the people all of the time.

What a bunch of paranoid, delusional nonsense. My uncle was a steamfitter who was in the towers on 9/11- he was working on the building and you know what: no explosives, anywhere.  Oh wait, maybe he is also part of the grand conspiracy.  I also know a bunch of people who were working for Port Authority who were tasked to protect those buildings and would have noticed explosives being planted.  I guess those hundreds more people are in on it and I must look at them all as shifty bastards now.

Skepticism is a healthy emotion-paranoia is not.

Anecdotal evidence is not really evidence at all. The fact that your uncle didn't see explosives does not mean that there weren't any.

As William S. Burroughs said, paranoia means having all the facts.

Haha, Ive never seen you provide a bit of evidence. You believe what you want to believe on all issues despite the facts. It is not m uncle it is thousands and tens of thousands of people. What you suggest is simply not possible and you have always refused to engage with other posters when you have been proven wrong.  It is really useless to even reply.  I am not sure what your goals are in life, but I fear your current attitude may get in your way.    

Evidence for what? You people who adhere to Bush's story don't want to discuss any real issues, you just make these kinds of vague statements that can't possibly be refuted. Oh it's "simply not possible" because you said so.

It's funny how emotional you people get over something like this. "He called my president a liar, how dare he?!"


Btw, a Bush-Linked Company Handled Security for the WTC, Dulles and United

Ah, Jesus Christ.  Are computers planting explosives now?  They handled parts of electronic security systems in the 90's and their contracts had run out.  Private Security was heading by up by John Oneill's outfit and WTC was and is part of the PANY.  They were based there and had hundreds of personnel and officers.  Further, the NYC office of emergency management was based in WTC7.  Tough to convince all these unions guys to become part of a grand neo-con conspiracy. But all things are possible in fanstasyland, I guess.
Even within the article the blogger mentioned that they  handled a United contract in the 90's
What else you got?

Nobody is claiming that there was some "grand neo-con conspiracy" involving low-level employees. What else you got besides strawman arguments and a pissy attitude?

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

What else you got besides strawman arguments and a pissy attitude?

Libby, you just described your M.O.

The lengths people will go to avoid engaging in respectful and serious debate...

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

Oh, definitely Osama? Because you've studied exactly what the real Osama bin Laden looked like and could tell who he is immediately from a mysterious low-quality video that somehow manages to show up on fedgov's doorstep? Riiiight....

Not to mention they could easily change the audio track even if they did use a video of the real Osama, to make him say what they wanted him to say.

I haven't, but plenty of experts (not just Government experts) have, and they all agree it's Osama, and that he is saying the things the video records him as saying.  And the video's aren't that low quality; nor did they just magically appear on the government's doorstep.

More vague allegations. Oh, "plenty of experts agree".

This is basically what the whole official 9/11 conspiracy theory is based on. Vague allegations built upon vague allegations which people use to justify in their minds what would otherwise appear to be a blatantly absurd theory put forth by the Bush administration.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

What is the strawman? Your facts are wrong and your reading comprehension was terrible on the blogger evidence you put forward.  There is video evidence of the planes hitting the buildings and the engineering facts explain how the towers fell.  Comprehensive works are out there explaining in detail how this transpired.  I don't see any valid evidence or scenarios that cannot be shot down without much effort from your "side".  How was your theory done and by whom and by what means?  

There are comprehensive works out there explaining why the official story could not have happened, and comprehensive works which explicitly refute the "refuters".

I don't deal in conspiracy theories; I deal in conspiracy facts. And the fact of the matter is, the official government story behind 9/11 is full of gaping holes. There are too many unanswered questions; there needs to be a new and independent investigation into the whole affair.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

This is basically what the whole official 9/11 conspiracy theory is based on. Vague allegations built upon vague allegations which people use to justify in their minds what would otherwise appear to be a blatantly absurd theory put forth by the Bush administration.

How is "a group of terrorists spend years preparing for one major terrorist strike on major centers of finance, government, and defense, and then execute those plans" a blatantly absurd theory?  It sounds pretty realistic to me.

Because, Benjamin, it is not reasonable to believe that a group of ragtag fundamentalists in Afghanistan somehow managed to pull off massive terrorist attacks with military precision in the homeland of the most powerful nation in the world.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

there needs to be a new and independent investigation into the whole affair.

And in the event that investigation doesn't show what you believe to be true.....it's obviously rigged, right?

Um, it's the government and it's defenders that don't want to open a new independent investigation. It's not the truthers who are apparently frightened by the thought of letting some sunlight in so we can try to piece together what really happened.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

"Military precision"?  One plane didn't make it, the second WTC plane nearly missed the tower altogether; this is not military precision.

Seriously? Do you know how much precision it would have required just to fly those planes the way they did, never mind everything else that had to fall into place and be just right for the attacks to have happened as successfully as they did?

Also it's not entirely surprising that the plane that didn't make it was the plane supposedly headed for Shrub's house.

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No, unlike the regime's defenders; we are not interested in defending any preconceived theories, we just want an objective investigation to find out the truth.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

"Military precision"?  One plane didn't make it, the second WTC plane nearly missed the tower altogether; this is not military precision.

Seriously? Do you know how much precision it would have required just to fly those planes the way they did, never mind everything else that had to fall into place and be just right for the attacks to have happened as successfully as they did?

Libby, these terrorists were trained pilots.  It isn't that difficult for a trained pilot to do what they did.

Somehow I doubt that you're speaking from experience. Flying the jetliners into skinny skyscrapers- and even more unbelievable, the way the plane was flown so close to the ground with military skill perpendicularly into the Pentagon- are hardly easy feats of flying.

And as I said, flying the planes was not the only thing that required a precise operation typical of a major world government, not of some ragtag Muslims in a cave in a backward country. For example, there's also the issue of why the planes weren't shot out of the sky...why did Dick Cheney order NORAD to stand down?

We had an objective investigation; it didn't say what you wanted it to say, so you rejected it.

No, it didn't. It had a sham 'investigation' that didn't even try to address the most glaring questions. It was not at all independent nor objective nor even very inquisitive.

Of course 40 years everyone believed what the Warren Commission had to say about JFK's assassination; nowadays it's conclusions are nearly-universally acknowledged to be full of holes. As the emotional and psychological shackles start to break off, people will begin to question the 9/11 story just as well.

[Obnoxiously Slutty Girly Girl]

You know the best part is Libertas is probably going to parade about how he's winning this argument and owning everyone when the poll results show pretty clearly how good he is at convincing people.

Uh yeah, I know your whole life revolves around just following the crowd, but poll results don't determine truth and fiction, nor right and wrong.