2020 Protests megathread

[Estrella]

I put this in the MN thread, but this is probably a more appropriate place

NYPD cars plowing into protesters:

https://twitter.com/pgarapon/status/1266885414016688134

An improvised lone wolf terrorist attack vs this. Spot the difference.

I, for one, can't.

[Estrella]

I'm so sick of watching all the evil cops tonight making everything worse. Doesn't matter where you look they are there. There are a few good ones, but few and far between.

I think that's so unfair to claim only a few cops are good ones. Yes, there are a lot of bad cops out there, yes police brutality exists, and there are a lot of racist cops out there.
The whole criminal justice system needs dramatic review and reform top to down from police officers in the streets, to prison, and the courts.
I know a lot of good cops out there, one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. It's never smart or wise to generalize.

This might or might not be true, but regardless of how many good cops there are, they need to stand up to the bad ones and change the system. If good cops are the majority, they have the responsibility to push for reform - and they clearly aren't doing that because if they were, murders like this wouldn't be such a common occurence. If they are a minority, that would make Gass right.

(As an aside, on one single issue I'm turning into a Reaganite: the ideal outcome of all of this would be the police unions being blown into smithereens, like what Ronald did to air trafic controllers in 1981. That obviously isn't gonna happen, but one can dream.)

[Estrella]

https://twitter.com/Gingersonfire/status/1266884385854255104

+1 for dedication - people whose ideology involves turning back the clock to Middle Ages rarely go as far as to use weapons from those times.

Also, attorney general Barr apparently wants to prosecute the protesters using the Anti-Riot Act, which forbids crossing state lines and using interstate facilities to participate in violent riots.

Oh, by the way, the law was a part of the 1968 Civil Rights Act. Irony isn't in short supply these days.

[Estrella]

I'm so sick of watching all the evil cops tonight making everything worse. Doesn't matter where you look they are there. There are a few good ones, but few and far between.

I think that's so unfair to claim only a few cops are good ones. Yes, there are a lot of bad cops out there, yes police brutality exists, and there are a lot of racist cops out there.
The whole criminal justice system needs dramatic review and reform top to down from police officers in the streets, to prison, and the courts.
I know a lot of good cops out there, one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. It's never smart or wise to generalize.

This might or might not be true, but regardless of how many good cops there are, they need to stand up to the bad ones and change the system. If good cops are the majority, they have the responsibility to push for reform - and they clearly aren't doing that because if they were, murders like this wouldn't be such a common occurence. If they are a minority, that would make Gass right.

(As an aside, on one single issue I'm turning into a Reaganite: the ideal outcome of all of this would be the police unions being blown into smithereens, like what Ronald did to air trafic controllers in 1981. That obviously isn't gonna happen, but one can dream.)

That's the job of politicians. The problem has always been there, the difference now it's being filmed on cameras.
My uncle used to work as a police officer at a prison, he always used to talk about how ill-equipped and underfunded the prisons were, and not enough help provided to rehabilitate prisoners, this problem was known since the 70s. But wasn't taken seriously.
Today in America released prisoners are more likely to rearrested than any other country in the western world. You can blame law enforcement all you want and they do deserve a lot of blame but why didn't our elected politicians do something about it?
Reform, review, and properly fund the system. You cant fund the system on the cheap. And yes Republican administrations are more guilty of gutting law enforcement funding. I personally trust Democrats more when it comes to law enforcement reform.
It's easy to sit back and talk sh!t about cops and many deserve it, but this anti-cop rhetoric will have dangerous ramifications that are already being felt. The drop in police officers applicant particular among minorities is a perfect example.

I agree with a lot of that - a lot of changes, even small change that could have big results, are hamstrung by a system of government not fit for the 21st century, political polarization, ingrained mentalities*, post-9/11 security fanaticism and incompetent politicians. But it's not like politicians tell sixty or however many percent of cops to engage in domestic abuse. Politicians don't tell them to shoot people begging for their life, or, as with those WV cops, to do the Hitler Salute. The police has a deep, ingrained mentality whose human equivalent would be something like a skinhead with fetal alcohol syndrome. I'm genuinely sorry to the good cops out there, but you are a part of the problem.

* And the paleoconservativism and resistance to any change that took over the GOP caused a big part of that, I agree

[Estrella]

I'm so sick of watching all the evil cops tonight making everything worse. Doesn't matter where you look they are there. There are a few good ones, but few and far between.

I think that's so unfair to claim only a few cops are good ones. Yes, there are a lot of bad cops out there, yes police brutality exists, and there are a lot of racist cops out there.
The whole criminal justice system needs dramatic review and reform top to down from police officers in the streets, to prison, and the courts.
I know a lot of good cops out there, one bad apple spoils the whole bunch. It's never smart or wise to generalize.

This might or might not be true, but regardless of how many good cops there are, they need to stand up to the bad ones and change the system. If good cops are the majority, they have the responsibility to push for reform - and they clearly aren't doing that because if they were, murders like this wouldn't be such a common occurence. If they are a minority, that would make Gass right.

(As an aside, on one single issue I'm turning into a Reaganite: the ideal outcome of all of this would be the police unions being blown into smithereens, like what Ronald did to air trafic controllers in 1981. That obviously isn't gonna happen, but one can dream.)

That's the job of politicians. The problem has always been there, the difference now it's being filmed on cameras.
My uncle used to work as a police officer at a prison, he always used to talk about how ill-equipped and underfunded the prisons were, and not enough help provided to rehabilitate prisoners, this problem was known since the 70s. But wasn't taken seriously.
Today in America released prisoners are more likely to rearrested than any other country in the western world. You can blame law enforcement all you want and they do deserve a lot of blame but why didn't our elected politicians do something about it?
Reform, review, and properly fund the system. You cant fund the system on the cheap. And yes Republican administrations are more guilty of gutting law enforcement funding. I personally trust Democrats more when it comes to law enforcement reform.
It's easy to sit back and talk sh!t about cops and many deserve it, but this anti-cop rhetoric will have dangerous ramifications that are already being felt. The drop in police officers applicant particular among minorities is a perfect example.

I agree with a lot of that - a lot of changes, even small change that could have big results, are hamstrung by a system of government not fit for the 21st century, political polarization, ingrained mentalities*, post-9/11 security fanaticism and incompetent politicians. But it's not like politicians tell sixty or however many percent of cops to engage in domestic abuse. Politicians don't tell them to shoot people begging for their life, or, as with those WV cops, to do the Hitler Salute. The police has a deep, ingrained mentality whose human equivalent would be something like a skinhead with fetal alcohol syndrome. I'm genuinely sorry to the good cops out there, but you are a part of the problem.

* And the paleoconservativism and resistance to any change that took over the GOP caused a big part of that, I agree

I think you're generalizing here. Obviously what WV cops did was reprehensible and they all ought to lose their jobs.
In such occasions, decisive tough actions should've been taken against police officers for misusing their power. That hasn't always been the case and as a result, great injustice and distrust being felt towards the law enforcement from African American communities. I think every law enforcement leader should deeply be concerned by the lack of confidence and support the institute holds among the African American community.
I've been reading through threads and comments in this forum since the tragic murder of George Floyd and I've noticed its quite fashionable to bash and generalize cops in such a negative way.
Btw I don't work for law enforcement. I used to serve in the Navy and currently I work as an accountant.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, I meant you as in the "good cops."

Again, I agree with a lot of what you say and sympathize with that. We can't just demolish everything, we have to fix what we already have. The police is not going away and improving trust in policing in the community would be removing the biggest block on the way forward. But still, I feel like the whole system is rotten to the core - not necessarily beyond repait, but it's very bad. For example, look at the police unions, which supposedly represent the officers' interests: these unions had a big role in making sure almost all of similar cases that happened in the past resulted in a slap on the wrist and a cushy pension to top it off. Yes, if we had willing politicians, we could try to fix this, but why do we have people getting away with it in the first place?

[Estrella]

https://twitter.com/NBCNews/status/1267101298832355328?s=19
The headline is a bit iffy because he waffled, but to see someone as anti-police as DeBlasio cower at his chance for criticism tells it all.

It speaks more to DeBlasio's general incompetence and laziness, tbh.

I'd say that in this situation a seemingly moderate-ish response like de Blasio's is outright dangerous. It sounds like a paradox, but he and other mayors are playing a game of chicken by waffling like this. If they don't give at least an impression of trying to deal with police violence, they risk escalating the situation even more. Perhaps not during this wave of protests, but during the next one - which will come - you might very well get people so radicalized by their inaction that they'll go all Three Bilboards Outside Ebbing and start throwing Molotovs at police stations en masse.

[Estrella]

https://twitter.com/sa0un/status/1267138323623092225

I wonder what goes through the heads of these people - I'm pretty sure that us lesser mortals doing that would get us killed

[Estrella]

Red meat for the midwest suburbs.

Polls suggest he's losing ground because of the protests. He's failing.

You guys need a life beyond polling lol

These are striking visuals.

If you’re going to call something a political winner and polling says otherwise then of course it will be mentioned on a political forum. Also with all due respect you seem to be interpreting how suburbs will react to this through your personal bias and your kinda a massive racist with a lust authoritarian governance so your view might be skewed here

Trust me, if you heard half of what I've heard from Cleveland/Akron 20-40 yr olds, mostly women, they'd be banned for "hatefulness".

It's not playing well. Perhaps with college kids and African Americans.

People going on racist rants ≠ automatically approving of how Trump handles this. If he could tone down his rants and appear like a uniter, he wouldn't be getting these numbers in polls.

[Estrella]

Police unions and their disastrous impact have been mentioned in this thread before, but I've been thinking about something.

There have been some attempts to reform police forces in various cities, and most of them ultimately ended in failure.

What's the purpose of an union? Protecting its workers and negotiating better conditions for them, of course. Higher wages, better equipment and yes, unfortunately sometimes also protection from being fired despite obvious incompetence.

Incompetence is always harmful, but not all unions are created equal. A bad power-tripping teacher can never do as much harm as a bad power-tripping cop.

So why do we allow an instiution armed up to its teeth to boss around elected representatives of the people? If this wasn't America but a poorer, browner country and these people's uniforms were green instead of blue, this behavior would be - rightly - called out as an authoritarian deep state. Just as there needs to be civilian control of the military, there needs to be civilan control of the police. Effective control, that is.

[Estrella]

HOLY COW

https://twitter.com/ppollingnumbers/status/1267941135521067011?s=21

That's quite a contrast to the reactions of the country in the wake of civil rights protests and riots in the late 1960s.  We've come a long way indeed over the past fifty years....

https://www.crmvet.org/docs/60s_crm_public-opinion.pdf  

I know it's easy (and justified) to be pessimistic, but nothing says "it gets better" more than this (from page 4 of that pdf)

Gallup Poll (AIPO) [October, 1964]

PEOPLE HAVE DIFFERENT VIEWS ABOUT THE NEGRO DEMONSTRATIONS. WITH WHICH VIEW DO Y OU AGREE? SOME PEOPLE SAY THE NEGROES SHOULD STOP THEIR DEMONSTRATIONS NOW THAT THEY HAVE MADE THEIR POINT EVEN THOUGH SOME OF THEIR DEMANDS HAVE NOT BEEN MET. OTHERS SAY THEY HAVE TO CONTINUE DEMONSTRATING IN ORDER TO ACHIEVE BETTER JOBS, BETTER HOUSING, AND BETTER SCHOOLING. (WITH WHICH VIEW DO YOU AGREE?)

73% NEGROES SHOULD STOP DEMONSTRATIONS
19% HAVE TO CONTINUE
8% DON'T KNOW

[Estrella]

6 Atlanta officers have been charged in violent tasing incident

Arrest warrants have been issued for six Atlanta police officers who were caught on video tasing two college students Saturday. The students were stopped for violating curfew, Georgia’s Fulton County District Attorney Paul Howard Jr. said Tuesday.

The officers stand accused of aggravated assault, illegally pointing a taser, and criminal damage to property, said prosecutors. Video of the brutal arrest went viral over the weekend, leading to the firing of two officers involved; three others were placed on desk duty.

Be afraid, cops. Be very afraid. Accountability is coming.*

* This offer may not apply in every jurisdiction. For more information, please call 1-800-THEY-WILL-GET-JUST-A-SLAP-ON-THE-WRIST-ANYWAY.


Still, whatever ends up happening with this case, it shows an important symbolic change in policy.

[Estrella]

https://twitter.com/MatthewBorgard/status/1267297260251025408

Sic semper tyrannis

Et tu, teargas?

[Estrella]

I wouldn't kill people over a business, but.......

You're not from Idaho then.

Coeur d'Alene

https://youtu.be/0kUDGfSOrQQ

Such a sweet feminine soft French name.

Incidentaly, there's a place near Coeur d'Alene which is (was?) full of literal Nazis. Hm.

[Estrella]

I wouldn't kill people over a business, but.......

You're not from Idaho then.

Coeur d'Alene

https://youtu.be/0kUDGfSOrQQ

Such a sweet feminine soft French name.

Oh by the way, a comment from below the video:

Begining of paramilitaries in USA: UNITED SELF DEFENCE FORCES OF AMERICA. Just like in Colombia with the AUC.

For reference.

The United Self-Defences of Colombia (Autodefensas Unidas de Colombia, or AUC, in Spanish) was a Colombian far right paramilitary and drug trafficking group which was an active belligerent in the Colombian armed conflict during the period from 1997 to 2006.

It's not like I'd expect these cretins to be able to organize anything more than a white power march or whatever it is they do in their free time, never mind a drug cartel.

[Estrella]

I'm genuinely not sure I trust 2020 to be a free and fair election at this point. Sitting US Senators are calling for the military to be used to put down protests on US soil (and the New York Times is running this fascist drivel for some reason), and the conservative Christian intelligentsia has been ramping up the warmed-over Falangism for at least a year now.

You're expecting integrity from the newspaper that uncritically cited a race scientist in one of their op-eds.

BUt NeW yoRk TimES haS LibErAl bIaS

(or, even more nonsensically, "left-wing bias")

[Estrella]

Oops. My mistake there. I meant to link this.



The NYTimes staffers are, quite rightly, very unhappy.

And today is the 31st anniversary of the day when, er, "nothing" happened in Tiananmen Square. Why do I feel like Senator Cotton would like a similar "nothing" to happen in the streets of Washington?

[Estrella]

https://twitter.com/Breaking911/status/1268026849231286275?s=19

So bad, poor people worked all their lives, it's a sad site.

Honey, black lives matter didn't trash your store. A bunch of ignorant ass thugs and assholes sikandar use the protests as an excuse to score some quick bucks did. There's a big big difference yeah.

That's not the point though? We don't know whether it was some bigoted white nationalists trying to sabotage the peaceful protests that did this, or some professional looters, or extreme parts of the Black lives matter movement. And yes there are some extreme elements of BLM, "pigs in a blanket, fry 'em like bacon". This lady might be wrong in blaming black lives matter for the damage done to her business, but that's not the point.
You can clearly hear from the tone of the lady's voice some real sadness and frustration rather than anger. I can't imagine how she or her co-workers are feeling after seeing their shop trashed. It took them massive sacrifices to build this business and create a somewhat comfortable life and to see it go within minutes must be soul-crushing, I hope the insurance company does cover her business. I know for a fact those insurance companies are gonna try to play dirty tricks in the book to avoid paying for the damage being done, that's how the insurance industry operates. Our insurance industry is rotten to the core and requires an urgent overhaul and reforms but that's another subject.

Rover, I'm not sure I disagree with a word you said, particularly about the anguish this woman is going through. I'm a small business owner myself, and me and my partner own the office building that are firm plus about 20 other tenants work in. I would be heartbroken if it burned down, notwithstanding having insurance and are files being almost all on the cloud. The one point I have to disagree with is when you say that's not the point. When this poor woman lambaste black lives matters for the destruction of her business oh, no matter how understandable it may be out of her grief, placing blame on a movement opposing police brutality is an accurate or Fair, no matter how heartbroken she is.

This underlies how weird the whole situation is. There is no black lives matter unified organization. Not saying I should be, but my point is the shades between a peaceful protester, a rioter who lets their anger over long simmering police brutality cross the line to axle vandalism and arson, some antifa s***stirrer, or opportunistic criminal trash using the opportunity to steal stuff with any concerns they have about George Floyd and police brutality being decidedly secondary, I'll probably all chanting the phrase black lives matter at some point in their actions. But that doesn't mean we can't or, more importantly, shouldn't distinguish between them. Lord knows Trump isn't, but we need to.

I guess I'm also being infuriated that this woman is being quickly passed around right-wing media I see as the excuse to send in the troops and have the police crack down even harder on protest based on the mistake and fallacies that most protesters are violent thugs rather than peaceful, and it's necessary to "protect" blacks from themselves. It's b******* all around, so I will call out even a disenfranchised business owner wild with grief when she's wrong. I hope they catch the SOB's who did this to her business and put them under a prison cell, FTR.

I don't disagree with anything you've just said. I think it's human nature to blame anyone you perceive the culprit, in this case, the lady perceives the BLM as the culprit. I don't agree with her because I simply don't know who are the culprits and what were their motives.

I mostly view the past week in two prisms. The first, which is the majority, basically peacefully protests seeking justice after the appalling murder of George Floyd. The second, which is the minority lawless criminals trying to hijack and sabotage the protest by looting and rioting.

I strongly agree with the principles of BLM, all of them actually. I don't see anything wrong with their aims. I didn't like the kneeling to the flag as someone who served in the military, but hey this is a free country, you can do whatever you like.

What I find most disturbing and irritating is the constant generalization of cops as "they're all bad and evil", which firstly not true and makes the person making this argument fall under the category of generalization, that's not a good look.
Law enforcement needs a massive overhaul. Anyone that loves the police and law enforcement and wants them to succeed can see that.
The conduct of a large minority of cops is disgraceful and unforgivable and in many cases, they've been given an easy pass for things average Americans can't get away with.
We can just look at what happened in Ferguson a few years ago, the entire situation was sad. I felt at the time it was a huge missed opportunity to reform law enforcement. President Obama was too conservative in his reaction, he didn't want to upset law enforcement leaders. The roots of the problem were very clear, yet sidelined. From that moment it was pretty apparent to any fair-minded observer, that if this happened again, there will be a bigger backlash.
Anti-police rhetoric has become mainstream among a significant chunk of the population. And this is bad, because how can you reform with good faith an institution you hate. One of the first symptoms of the anti-cop rhetoric is the decline of young African Americans joining law enforcement. In many parts of the US, police academies are finding it challenging to recruit young African Americans and it's becoming ever more difficult. How can you solve law enforcement racism, if you don't have enough African Americans among your ranks leading the reforms?

Regarding the last point, you will always find rightwing hacks and left-wing hacks using stories, videos, and events to make a point. In this case, it's far-right hacks. Their talking points are mostly wrong and incoherent, they shouldn't be taken seriously.

I again agree with almost all of what you said, but there's something I need to add regarding anti-police sentiment and why I think it's justified.

In criminal justice, restorative approaches are infinitely more effective than punitive ones. Sometimes, this extends to instituional reform as well, especially when said institution has the kind of collective mentality that US law enforcement has. But cute fluffy 100% restorative justice doesn't work - there need to be a few strong but well-aimed (not literal) blows of punishment for it to be effective.

I've just read this FiveThirtyEight article about how cops perceive issues of race and policing and what I think it clearly shows is that police is an institution utterly incapable of being reformed from inside and by "restorative" means. They (and not just their representatives in dealing with politicians) are clearly dishonest actors who instead of finding a compromise seek to scuttle any attempt at reform. It's only appropriate that they receive the same treatment in return.

However, we can't (and shouldn't!) just smash the whole institution of police to pieces. What we need to do is, to put it plainly, vote for politicians who have the balls to grab a gavel and use it to beat some sense into cops' heads. Yes, they need to be afraid - afraid of losing their positions, their jobs and pensions, even going to jail. Fear is good. It keeps things civil.

Only when the law enforcement is shown that their don't have the upper hand and are at the mercy of politicians will they be willing to compromise. And then they can sit at a table with them and civil society and talk about reasonable reforms. That's how we can make the police a trusted institution again.

[Estrella]

Yet another casualty, as a young woman is in deep despair as a protester shot and killed her sister

https://nypost.com/2020/06/03/sister-of-iowa-woman-shot-dead-sobs-in-heartbreaking-video

Terrorism is defined by three elements:

1. Violence (or the threat of violence), and
2. against civilians, for
3. political reasons.

Call it what it is: This is domestic terrorism.

Anyone causing death and destruction right now is simply a terrorist.

I’m very disappointed with this nation.

Thank you for agreeing that the police are terrorists. They fit all three elements of your definition.

IIRC the definition of terrorism technically involves non-state actors, but then the police are so out of control and often straight out ignoring what mayors tell them that it's probably still correct.

[Estrella]

Yet another casualty, as a young woman is in deep despair as a protester shot and killed her sister

https://nypost.com/2020/06/03/sister-of-iowa-woman-shot-dead-sobs-in-heartbreaking-video

Terrorism is defined by three elements:

1. Violence (or the threat of violence), and
2. against civilians, for
3. political reasons.

Call it what it is: This is domestic terrorism.

Anyone causing death and destruction right now is simply a terrorist.

I’m very disappointed with this nation.

Thank you for agreeing that the police are terrorists. They fit all three elements of your definition.

Eh, police violence isn't "political".

Wasn't that long ago that I'd have said that too, but the scandals about police's infiltration by neo-Nazis, their behavior around white supremacist marches and their loud support for Trump say otherwise.

[Estrella]

Kind of off topic, but when New York F***** Post publishes an article called "7 movies and documentaries about racism that you should watch now", you know that this murder (and the protests!) was straw that broke the camel's back and things are changing, for real.

[Estrella]

https://twitter.com/StribJany/status/1267471624397361162

Violent criminal history of George Floyd? Terrorist movement?

Seriously?

I'm one more idiotic statement like this away from agreeing with Adam Griffin:

The logistics of these protests and demonstrations are just so embarrassing. Every protest, every demonstration and every riot needs to be held at or in close proximity to a police station. Right now, all of these randomized demonstration locations mean that whenever cops pop their power-boners or the event breaks down into riots, the damage is always done in areas that don't send a message, leading to plenty of collateral residential and commercial damage.

The cops are invariably going to show up and start beating the s[inks]t out of people regardless of how the event occurs or where, so it only makes sense to push them back to their home turf - and with enough people at various locales, minimizes the chances of police being able to gang up on individual sites. It also ensures that there's no collateral damage of innocent residences and businesses.

This way, when the cops decide to start attacking people and acting like animals, it's only going to be the cops who are getting hurt/killed and only police stations getting torched (i.e. the only parties deserving of such).

(emphasis mine)

[Estrella]

https://twitter.com/RosaGoldensohn/status/1268711808807981056

He's such a DINO that I heard two dozen archeologists follow him everywhere he goes.

[Estrella]

Louisville BBQ man who was fatally shot when police dispersed crowd used to feed officers for free

Talk about biting the hand that feeds you.

[Estrella]

"Lib DEM" Mayor of Portland Oregon...

Another Night of Ted Wheeler over-reaction show in Portland Oregon...

Cops still appear to be using Tear Gas and other chemical agents against protesters in the City, not to mention various other crowd control items.....

https://www.oregonlive.com/portland/2020/06/portland-protests-against-police-brutality-continue-friday-live-updates.html


Getting to a point where anyone supports Wheeler and PDX activity quite frankly need to be removed from office immediately....

Tear Gas & Rubber Bullets are not "Non-Lethal" crowd control techniques, which our British Colonial Masters attempted to pioneer in Northern Ireland around 1970....

I don't give an eff about whatever police departments use such tactics regardless of DEM nor PUB cities, but any political figure that support such actions should be voted out of office immediately, cause quite frankly don't need that crap rolling down my neighborhood, especially from "Democratic" political leaders supporting the crooked cops in the hood at a time of righteous rage.

Portland will have a mayoral runoff in November, so Wheeler better watch out.

What his opponent has to say:
sarah2020.com/en/policies/george-floyd-protests

[Estrella]

https://mobile.twitter.com/JulianStephen/status/1268568671426940929?cxt=HGwWgsC8...