Israel-Gaza war

[AtorBoltox]

MODERATOR WARNING: I understand how this thread can quickly become heated and respect that different people have differing views and opinions on the matter. However, any kind of inappropriate posts, including support for indiscriminate killing of civilians, and severe personal attacks against other posters will not be tolerated. This thread has been cleaned up and several posts deleted, most without infraction. As much as reasonably possible, please keep discussion on-topic and respectful.

For making several extremely inappropriate posts cheering on indiscriminate killing of civilians, MATTROSE94 has been muted from this board from 24 hours.

DavidB stated in a post, he wished for my death in my native language.

English is the main language of this forum but is posting in another actually against the rules?

It's not the fact that he posted in dutch, it's what he posted in dutch that matters.



Translated in: "Your father should have used sexual protection. Would have been better for everyone".

I didn't need clarification, I wasn't confused about this part.

[YPestis25]

Can we please drop it?

Something very distasteful about these stupid fights in a thread devoted in part to discussing hundreds of civilian deaths.

[🇺🇦 Purple 🦄 Unicorn 🇮🇱]

What a horrifying series of events

Like Ukraine, it was Israel that was attacked this time in a 9/11 or Pearl Harbor-style terror attack.

I think they can respond accordingly, because time and time again it seems the nearby Arab countries want to destroy Israel and wipe it off the Middle-Eastern map.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Situation is still ongoing in Israeli border towns, but the army is in the area.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

A thought: what does Hamas really see as its core constituency? What does it see as its goals? We should not look at this purely from the perspective of territory, we should think of this in terms of political goals achieved or flunked, or neither (and not just short-term ones).
Even a conventional defeat might play into Hamas' hands, as Bibi and co could have difficulty getting their goals through in both Gaza and West Bank simultaneously, and the Arab World would be more outraged at what Israeli military actions unfold in Gaza than at Hamas' actions. If its mojo of fighting the Israelis is in better shape than at the start, and they aren't completely smashed, this might even be a net win outcome for Hamas, given they oppose normalization, and value cred as a premier anti-Israeli force in the eyes of the Arab street.
Of course, a messy outcome leaves room for both Hamas and Bibi to end up as net winners in the short-term. Long-term, is another story.

[ingemann]

I will mostly stay out of this thread, because if I said what I thought I would look like a hypocrite when we’re going to see the Israeli counter-reaction, but I support Israel in this crisis, just as I supported Armenia. I will say this; Hamas leadership are undisciplined morons, they have made a very successful plan and instead of doing their most to take hostages and not mistreat civilians, which would have given them a strong hand in any negotiations. Now there won’t be any negotiation and I expect to see large scale massacres of Palestinian civilians and the butchering of pretty much anyone connected to Hamas.

But there’s one criticism of Israel. The IDF shift to a primarily an occupation force have clearly resulted in some institutional rot, and I think Israel should rethink their strategy on the West Bank.

Also as anyone else I did not see this coming, when I first saw the maps of this on Reddit, I thought it was fictive, and I predict this will become vastly more ugly, in the coming days and weeks.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

What a horrifying series of events

Like Ukraine, it was Israel that was attacked this time in a 9/11 or Pearl Harbor-style terror attack.

I think they can respond accordingly, because time and time again it seems the nearby Arab countries want to destroy Israel and wipe it off the Middle-Eastern map.

What year are you posting from? The only nearby country (aside from Palestine itself) that is really at odds with Israel these days is too busy killing its own citizens these days. (Lebanon and Iraq don't really count because the militants don't actually control their countries).

[America Needs R'hllor]

Everyone please refrain from fighting and making useless posts here. Keep it for updates and analysis.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Everyone please refrain from fighting and making useless posts here. Keep it for updates and analysis.

What do you think about my above post re: Hamas? I greatly appreciate feedback.

[ingemann]

A thought: what does Hamas really see as its core constituency? What does it see as its goals? We should not look at this purely from the perspective of territory, we should think of this in terms of political goals achieved or flunked, or neither (and not just short-term ones).
Even a conventional defeat might play into Hamas' hands, as Bibi and co could have difficulty getting their goals through in both Gaza and West Bank simultaneously, and the Arab World would be more outraged at what Israeli military actions unfold in Gaza than at Hamas' actions. If its mojo of fighting the Israelis is in better shape than at the start, and they aren't completely smashed, this might even be a net win outcome for Hamas, given they oppose normalization, and value cred as a premier anti-Israeli force in the eyes of the Arab street.
Of course, a messy outcome leaves room for both Hamas and Bibi to end up as net winners in the short-term. Long-term, is another story.

I don’t see Bibi coming out out this as a winner, he has clearly failed the Israeli population, I expect this will result in even more extreme parties coming out on the top. As for Hamas, I don’t expect a lot of survivors.

[oldtimer]

God help us all, God help us

Calm down, War has been going on there for 23 years.

When Peace is declared in the Middle East, that would be real news.

[🇺🇦 Purple 🦄 Unicorn 🇮🇱]

What a horrifying series of events

Like Ukraine, it was Israel that was attacked this time in a 9/11 or Pearl Harbor-style terror attack.

I think they can respond accordingly, because time and time again it seems the nearby Arab countries want to destroy Israel and wipe it off the Middle-Eastern map.

What year are you posting from? The only nearby country (aside from Palestine itself) that is really at odds with Israel these days is too busy killing its own citizens these days. (Lebanon and Iraq don't really count because the militants don't actually control their countries).

I was referring more to the global situation in the Arab world: it could very well be that some in the leadership of these countries are not as hostile towards Israel and Jews and work towards a more peaceful cohabitation. But the overwhelming majority of Arab citizens (if not 90% or more)  is either critical of Israel and Jews or want them completely gone from "their" lands. Which in turn means to erase Israel from the map. That is what I mean by nearby countries.

[oldtimer]

Everyone please refrain from fighting and making useless posts here. Keep it for updates and analysis.

That reminds me of this old joke:

This is a thread abour War, of course one could expect fighting.

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

I have long made myself clear that I support the Palestinian cause, however this is no excuse for Hamas to launch attacks on civilians, be it Israeli or Palestinian. I'm praying for the safety of the families of my Palestinian friends in Gaza and praying for the safety our our Israeli posters here.

[Intell]

These are obviously morally depraved and not part of some noble Palestinian resistance. But there is a broader point what's the end game for Israel-Palestine that doesn't end with military occupation/segregation/ethnic cleansing.

[The Mikado]

At least in the short term Hamas is likely to meet its goal of sinking efforts to normalize relations between Israel and the Gulf Arab states.

They're going to do this at the cost of their lives.

Interesting cost-benefit analysis on their part but they seem to think it's worth it.

As always with Hamas ask yourself if the hand of Iran is pulling the strings, as they'd obviously be the biggest winners in Israel and KSA ending normalization talks.

The biggest losers are going to be the people of Gaza, but that's been true forever and is the reality of any Israel/Hamas clash.

What Hamas did in Southern Israel today is a category difference from any previous attack, not just a scale difference. This is a full on onslaught and it sure looks like Hamas is using everything it has in this. Remember that when you use everything you have in an all out attack, by definition you end up with nothing left afterwards.

[ingemann]

These are obviously morally depraved and not part of some noble Palestinian resistance. But there is a broader point what's the end game for Israel-Palestine that doesn't end with military occupation/segregation/ethnic cleansing.

Honestly I have a hard time seeing how this won’t end in large scale ethnic cleansing. I won’t be surprised if we see much or all of Gaza being emptied into Egypt. So this may end up as the second big ethnic cleansing campaign in last month in the Middle East. The only other alternative result will be Gaza coming under full Israeli occupation again, but I don’t think Israel have the stomach for a new never ending occupation, especially as Hamas have given them SUCH a nice excuse for ethnic cleanse the entire population of Gaza.

[Ferguson97]

Whatever injustices accompanied the creation of Israel in 1948, the median age of an Israeli citizen is like 29. Native-born individuals, definitionally, cannot be "settlers." So, unless you're prepared to start pulling out the calipers before deciding who is and who isn't deserving of citizenship or the indigenous label, people need to ditch the blood and soil rhetoric. An Israeli had as much say in their place of birth as a Palestinian. If you believe that your country is under an occupation, that would justify an armed resistance against the occupying military. It never justifies an attack on civilians, especially when it's been almost four generations. 97+% of the people living in Israel today played no part in the formation of the country in 1948. And none of this excuses the treatment of Palestinian civilians by the Israeli government and the IDF. Nobody should be surprised by the resentment that Palestinians feel towards the Israeli government. Hamas takes advantage of these legitimate grievances to advance its own genocidal agenda.

[Hnv1]

These are obviously morally depraved and not part of some noble Palestinian resistance. But there is a broader point what's the end game for Israel-Palestine that doesn't end with military occupation/segregation/ethnic cleansing.

Well, Hamas just made the whole Gaza-soon-not-habitable to be a whole lot sooner. If the Egyptians don't open the borders the humanitarian situation there is going to be dire

[Hnv1]

Lapid calls for a grand coalition and wartime cabinet.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Hopefully Israel can quickly and swiftly destroy Hamas

[oldtimer]

These are obviously morally depraved and not part of some noble Palestinian resistance. But there is a broader point what's the end game for Israel-Palestine that doesn't end with military occupation/segregation/ethnic cleansing.

The disputed territory of the Holy Lands is too small for 2 states, but they can't kill millions to make an ethnically pure land either, too Nazi for the civilized world.

They should try a federation of Israel and Palestine, afterall that was the proposed UN solution for Cyprus for turks and greeks that have been fighting on and off for 200 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution

[jaichind]

Energy prices will surge on Monday.

In the meantime, Biden already ran down the USA strategic oil reserve

[Excessive Hyperbole]

Lapid calls for a grand coalition and wartime cabinet.

Endorsed

[Intell]

These are obviously morally depraved and not part of some noble Palestinian resistance. But there is a broader point what's the end game for Israel-Palestine that doesn't end with military occupation/segregation/ethnic cleansing.

The disputed territory of the Holy Lands is too small for 2 states, but they can't kill millions to make an ethnically pure land either, too Nazi for the civilized world.

They should try a federation of Israel and Palestine, afterall that was the proposed UN solution for Cyprus for turks and greeks that have been fighting on and off for 200 years.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One-state_solution

There is no way a one state solution works unless there's a dictatorship.

 I think we are going to see military occupation which inadvertently/inevitably leads to a mass ethnic cleansing. The Netanyahu government won't accept less after these depraved attacks.