Israel-Gaza war

[windjammer]

I have 0 expertise on this but it looks like a final suicide act from the Hamas right? There is no way they will be able to survive this.

What do the experts think of that?

[windjammer]

They elected Hamas to power in the first place.  After Israel withdrew. 

in 2006, a plurality of voters in the Gaza Strip voted for Hamas candidates to represent them in the legislature of the Palestinian National Authority.

The cumulative vote totals of Districts 12 thru 16, the five Gaza-based districts, was as follows:

Hamas: 48.27%
Fatah: 43.60%
others: 8.13%

so even in this election 17 years ago, most Gazans didn't vote for Hamas.

nor did most Hamas voters support the party's hardline stances, as this post-election survey demonstrates. 75% say Hamas should acknowledge Israel's right to exist and abandon their commitment to Israel's elimination. Also, 84% support peace with Israel. Because these numbers are so large, we can mathematically infer that even a majority of Hamas's own voters opposed their belligerence and warmongering!

Regardless of all the above, however, this vote was NOT about "who controls the Gaza Strip", it's about "who will represent you in the PNA Legislative Council". In no way should these results be used to legitimize the Hamas coup AGAINST the PNA, nor its armed takeover of the Gaza Strip and its imposition of a de facto independent government not affiliated with the rest of Palestine

The Hamas dictatorship has no democratic legitimacy whatsoever. The results of a PNA legislative election did not somehow proactively ratify the Hamas coup AGAINST the PNA - it's a claim literally straight out of the propaganda Hamas uses to maintain their dictatorship.

Hamas is a terrorist group and the many innocent civilians forced to live under its thumb are not in any way responsible for the horrifying massacres and other atrocities Hamas is doing.

Looking at the polls I suppose that people from Gaza would support Fatah over Hamas but let's not pretend otherwise Hamas doesn't have a significant part of Gaza"s population that are backing its methods. Probably not 50% but at least 30% and this is scary in itself.

[windjammer]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

[windjammer]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

Not firing missiles at hospitals, giving a more reasonable evacuation timeframe for civilians and not cutting off water to children don’t seem unreasonable expectations

Hospitals are literally where the missiles are being launched.

[windjammer]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

So what would you do?

[windjammer]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

You didn't reply to my question lol.


It's quite telling no one ever in this thread responded to me with a concrete plan about what they would be doing if they were Israel After that Hamas would have raped abducted Israeli women and beheaded babies.

[windjammer]

The most unhinged thing about Hamas it is that they are literally killings their own population with these missed missiles.

Truly insane degenerates.

[windjammer]

What is likely going to happen?

Will Hamas lose power?

[windjammer]

I sent Senator AFE and moderator KoppaDaQuick personal messages that they should be ashamed of themselves for openly supporting the terrorists of Hamas. Instead, they should support Israel and the Jewish People, who have been encircled and oppressed and killed for centuries by various enemies and who have every right to defend themselves and go after Hamas terrorists, now and forever!

Hey bud, if I "support" Hamas as you baselessly accuse me of, show me any one of my posts here where I do.

For the record in my case I don't believe you are supporting what Hamas is doing. However you're supporting a ceasefire. So you give them a free pass for what they have done. Like for you they can abduct civilians, rape them, decapitate them and Israel cannot destroy them and some kind of ceasefire should be imposed so Hamas will nicely be able to do the same thing in a few months/few years.


You really don't see how this ceasefire you want it to be implemented is going to make Hamas survive do you?

[windjammer]

What is going to be the future of Gaza and Hamas ?

[windjammer]

What is going to be the future of Gaza and Hamas ?

Officially: TBD

If Hamas had any brains they'd announce their leadership will exit Gaza and they agree for their government apparatus to be subsumed by the PA. that will give them at least de facto control in various parts of Gaza

Call me optimistic but I think that Israel is going to be much safer post war. Removing Hamas for ever will greatly stabilize the region

[windjammer]

What is going to be the future of Gaza and Hamas ?

Officially: TBD

If Hamas had any brains they'd announce their leadership will exit Gaza and they agree for their government apparatus to be subsumed by the PA. that will give them at least de facto control in various parts of Gaza

I don't think people understand how much bad blood there is there.

It's like thinking the Contras would agree for their government apparatus to be subsumed by the Sandinistas or something.

If the PA/Fatah were allowed into Gaza and given run of the place, they'd straight up start imprisoning/executing everybody tangentially connected with the group. (And Hamas would do precisely the same thing in the West Bank if they were given wherewithal to.)

So let's give Gaza to Fatah then if that means they will kill all Hamas leaders?

[windjammer]

How long will this military operation continue?

[windjammer]

Israel's support is down to Fuzzy and Vosem types at this point. The consequences of ignoring 20+ years of warnings that they're wolf warrior diplomacy was leading to isolation minus the evangelical death cult/anti-Arabs.
https://twitter.com/ettingermentum/status/1730719161972674717

The poll shows Israel with majority support despite two months of non-stop anti-Israel propaganda in every source of media? Seems a lot less disastrous for Israel than it’s being presented as…

Look at the age gap.

US's support for Israel is on borrowed time.

Yes it's crystal clear that young people will never change their mind about anything when they will become older!

[windjammer]

Honestly,
People need to stop overreacting about young people having some kind of far left views. They aren't fully integrated into society yet and university is a hotbed for farleft overthinker.

Most of them won't keep these views when they will grow older.

[windjammer]

Honestly,
People need to stop overreacting about young people having some kind of far left views. They aren't fully integrated into society yet and university is a hotbed for farleft overthinker.

Most of them won't keep these views when they will grow older.

There are few things more condescending than a know-it-all boomer looking down on younger generations.

I'm not a boomer, I'm 28 years old haha.
 

[windjammer]

Honestly,
People need to stop overreacting about young people having some kind of far left views. They aren't fully integrated into society yet and university is a hotbed for farleft overthinker.

Most of them won't keep these views when they will grow older.

That's not really the issue. Plenty of young leftists (including those on this forum) proudly sport Hamas-friendly rhetoric without explicitly condoning them. I am aware of the large pro-Israel bias in right-leaning media, but the gap is incredible. The current war is perhaps the most scrutinized military campaign in human history, and is fought between the IDF, the morally gray though legitimate military of a morally gray but still legitimate country, fighting absolute monsters that actually enjoy sadistically raping, mutilating, parading and disgracing dead bodies, and whose most oppressed victims are actually the population of Gaza.

The left-leaning media will outright portray unfolding events in a false light. Even if not explicitly condoning Hamas, turning a blind eye just to paint Israel as the aggressor is irresponsible at best, and willingly supportive of antisemitic terrorism at worst. This is exactly the type of PR stunts Hamas want to pull off in the West.

The UN Women took 8 WEEKS to officially recognize that rape has occurred on October 7th, when there were live streams by Hamas of teens with bloody crotches on the day it happened. I mean, what the actual f@ck. The hypocrisy is sickening.

How much worse it is when the youth during the last century was praising Polpot or Mao?

[windjammer]

The reason why "But Hamas"  fails as a justification for Israeli brutally is because Hamas is a terrorist organization. A civilized nation like Israel should be holding themselves to a much higher standard.

No, the same laws should apply to all militaries and nations. Otherwise you're just hoping "the civilized nation"/whoever takes those laws seriously loses.

The difference in rhetoric is just that Hamas does not bother to deny war crimes, so there is no conversation to be had there, while Israel puts such ridiculous effort into not doing them that catching some slip-up (which, amusingly, doesn't seem to have happened yet in this conflict) would damage their credibility, and so people feel very motivated to go look for "Israeli war crimes". A very important task for the future of democracies being able to wage wars at all is to prevent people like this from having important positions in media organizations, though hopefully this can be neatly solved by having monopolistic media organizations not exist in the near future.

You don't get to be as barbaric as a terrorist organization and also hold yourself to a moral high ground.

If Israel's government wants to use the same standard that Hamas does, the international community gets to consider Israel's government a terrorist organization the same way it considers Hamas a terrorist organization.

I doubt that Vosem would accept that.

Indeed, obviously not. (You shouldn't accept it either!) I've made it clear that the area belongs to Israel according to international law; that it is one of the goals of extant Palestinian liberationist organizations to commit genocide, which is not true for Israel; that Israel does not use human-shield-style tactics; or take hostages without charging them with some specific crime. The first two of these are the most important for understanding the broader Israeli-Palestinian conflict and why Palestinian liberationism should be destroyed; the third and fourth for understanding why Hamas specifically is a terrorist organization.

There's no "both sides-ing" the conflict. One side is incredibly wrong. The other is right, but that argument is sort of academic based on how wrong the other side is.

I clearly believe that Hamas needs to be fully destroyed but at the same time let's be honest as long as there is no viable future for a Palestinian state it's obvious that some terrorist groups are going to reappear.

Palestine needs to have its own state based on the Oslo agreements.

[windjammer]

We can question Israel massively, but let's not pretend Hamas are good guys.

Name a few users who do that.

It is not an extant position on this forum, thankfully, but it is in all too many other leftist spaces, especially online.

Hamas is, of course, the Palestinian extreme right, and part of the singularly nasty nature of this war is precisely that it is being fought between two governments made up of murdering racist grifters.

I mean, it's really sad the high casualties. However I'm very much optimistic for the future. Both Hamas and Netanyahu are definitely going to be gone very soon

[windjammer]

Does anyone know what the Arabs Israelis citizens think of this conflict?
At the same time they are culturally close to the Palestinians but on the other hand they are being targeted as well but Hamas terrorist attacks.

[windjammer]

Once again Biden proves to be the most reasonable voice in this conflict