What should Israel choose?

[Lunar]

So, Israel wants three things ideally:

To be a Democratic (human-rights-respecting), Jewish state that occupies the entire land of Israel.

*  They can choose to be democratic and Israeli (geographically), but then they'd have to adjust to their Arab population (both in Palestine and Israel) that is rapidly growing relative to the Jewish population.  This would require surrendering their long-term Jewishness (that's a word, crazy),

* They could choose to be Jewish and Israeli (geographically), but then they'd need to deny long-term democratic rights to other religions or violate other human rights (forcing populations out of the country and other generally illiberal actions).

*Or they could choose to be Jewish and democratic, but then they'd no longer be able to to hold onto their ideal of being Israeli geographically, which is important innumerable ways.  Generally, both sides of the conflict consider many aspects of the country to be indivisible goods, like control of Jerusalem and various other holy sites.  It's kind of hard to say that I'll get control of various holy sites on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays but you can get them on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and Saturdays, and then we'll split Sundays, y'know?


I'm actually relatively pro-Israeli compared to everyone I've known except my ethnically Israeli roommate one semester.  I'm not all about Palestinian rights, but I find this an interesting dilemma.  I think Israel's a noble state that's forced to do unpleasant things because it has these three binary goods that it doesn't want to bargain over (symbolic territory, religion, democracy), and thus it's left somewhere in the middle of it all.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Democracy, Israeli Territory. Any other option is racist.

[Lunar]

It's racist to let the Palestinians have a substantial part of Israeli territory?

Israel would have to give up a bit more of its current land if it wanted to have a long-term Jewish state, but not a whole lot. 


I agree with your choice though.

[Governor PiT]

I think the 3rd. is the only option.

[Хahar 🤔]

Doesn't matter. They lose with any option.

[Matt Damon™]

Democracy, Israeli territory. Establish a secular state complete with secular marriage laws, a single school system, give the palis citizenship, annex the west bank, no more exemptions from the draft for yeshiva students and invite the refugees home. Don't take any land away from current land owners, what's done is done. Pay the refugees a one time compensation fee of 100 grand each.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

They need to keep their Judaism, an undivided Jerusalem, and remain democratic.

[Хahar 🤔]

They need to keep their Judaism, an undivided Jerusalem, and remain democratic.

Which is of course impossible. Judaism and democracy will quickly become incompatible as the Arab population overtakes the Jewish one.

[dead0man]

One man, one vote, one time!

[Хahar 🤔]

One man, one vote, one time!

If Israel is a Jewish state right now, does it not follow that it would be an Islamic state when Muslims become the majority?

[dead0man]

Well yeah, because there won't be many Jews left.  I'd assume we wouldn't be calling it Israel much longer either.

[Хahar 🤔]

Well yeah, because there won't be many Jews left.  I'd assume we wouldn't be calling it Israel much longer either.

Of course there would be Jews. They'd continue to reproduce, just not as fast.

[dead0man]

You don't think there will be great changes to the liberal democracy the Jews have created there once Muslims are a majority?

[Хahar 🤔]

You don't think there will be great changes to the liberal democracy the Jews have created there once Muslims are a majority?

I think that there's a fundamental problem with your outlook.

[dead0man]

Maybe.  Doesn't answer my question though.

[Хahar 🤔]

Perhaps it doesn't.

But I do love how you sit on your pedestal and accuse all and sundry of anti-Semitism. Especially if they're People You Don't Like.

[dead0man]

I know it's a scary question for you, but come on man.

[Хahar 🤔]

Yes? Israel isn't a democracy now, not until the occupied territories vote.

[dead0man]

Are the occupied territories part of Israel?

[Хahar 🤔]

For all intents and purposes.

And no, an Arab Palestine will not be democratic. It cannot be democratic, for it shall be poor, and democracy is for the bourgeoisie.

[dead0man]

What will become of the Jews?

[Хahar 🤔]

Seeing their lack of power, most will probably emigrate. The ones that stay will either become poor and indistinguishable from the Christians or will stay rich and become a lighning rod for discontent (for obvious reasons).

[dead0man]

Which is what I said 3 hours ago.

Well yeah, because there won't be many Jews left.  I'd assume we wouldn't be calling it Israel much longer either.

So we're back to where the OP started.  What do you think the Jews of Israel should do?  Just give up and move to.....Canada?  What about the poor Jews?  If poor people can't move from Michigan to Idaho, it's not going to be easy to get from Tel Aviv to Toledo.  Switch to Islam?  Pray they aren't slaughtered in mass again?

or should we all just say screw 'em, they get what they deserve for trying to live surrounded by backwards thinking fundies?

[Хahar 🤔]

They had it in for them when they tried to exercise a 2,000-year-old claim.

[Kaine for Senate '18]

They had it in for them when they tried to exercise a 2,000-year-old claim.

You mean when the UN partitioned them?  I mean seriously, enough about the 2,000 year old claim.