are you proud to be an American?

[Frodo]

Always have been, always will be. 

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I noticed that you really so no other point than to spew vague, annoying statements around.

I think I've made my thoughts on this general issue fairly clear in this thread. Not my fault if you've not read them.

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Don't I?

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Do I?

[Keystone Phil]

I think I've made my thoughts on this general issue fairly clear in this thread. Not my fault if you've not read them.

You use circular arguments and make very vague, totally unrelated comments. When I point out what you mean, you say, "I don't mean that" and don't elaborate.

Basically, you make a silly point, argue that it's a logical point and if you don't understand it you're just not bright/didn't read them.

There's more to a city than geography. There's more to a country than geography. You can be proud of both.

[Reluctant Republican]

I’m proud to be an American in the 21st Century yes. But if I had to chose, I’d rather be French in the present times then American in the 19th or even most of the 20th century. (Nothing against the French, just an example.) But If I could chose to live in any country other then America today, I think I’d stay here, it works for me. I’d probably move a bit west though.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You use circular arguments

Not real ones. Or at least, I don't think so.

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Never do that. Comments are always related.

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I like to read things. I always assume that this is true of other people. To not do so would be rather rude, wouldn't it.

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I don't usually make silly points. Strange ones, maybe. Probably. Guilty.

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Sure. All I was saying (really) was that cities have an, er, objective physical existence that "nations" and "countries" don't. Cities simply are. Nations are not like that.

[Keystone Phil]

Sure. All I was saying (really) was that cities have an, er, objective physical existence that "nations" and "countries" don't. Cities simply are. Nations are not like that.

What do you mean by physical existence and how do countries not have that?

[Ban my account ffs!]

Al... I don't follow you.

I can tell when I'm in a different country by looking at the architecture.  And yes, the architecture is relevant in identifying a country as the country is really just a collection of states/provinces which have a collection of cities which have a collection of businesses and households which tend to follow a certain type of building style.

The boundaries of a city are determined using many of the same criteria as the boundaries of a state or country:  Natural barriers like rivers/lakes/oceans or mountains, or by pre-existing cities/towns. 

Also, many of the same things that can make you proud of the city you live in can make you proud of hte state or country you live in.  There are values that I share with all Americans while there are values that are more regional or more local as well... but to separate one from the others as being somehow unique just sounds like arguing for the sake of arguing.

[Keystone Phil]

but to separate one from the others as being somehow unique just sounds like arguing for the sake of arguing.

Thank you. With this crew, that's probably the case.

[Nym90]

I see what Al's getting at, but Snowguy is right as well. A nation is a larger collection of cities, and states, and provinces, just like a city is a larger collection of houses and businesses.

And national borders do delineate culture, sometimes simply due to their existence rather than their existence being based on any particular culture, but nonetheless they are distinctive.

[Keystone Phil]

I see what Al's getting at, but Snowguy is right as well. A nation is a larger collection of cities, and states, and provinces, just like a city is a larger collection of houses and businesses.

And national borders do delineate culture, sometimes simply due to their existence rather than their existence being based on any particular culture, but nonetheless they are distinctive.

Yeah...I've been arguing that for awhile now. I guess it's easier to give the credit to someone less controversial/more in line with your way of thinking. 

[Ronnie]

I do live on the greatest nation on Earth.

Not saying that other nations are inferior, but the US just owns IMO.

[Хahar 🤔]

I do live on the greatest nation on Earth.

Not saying that other nations are inferior, but the US just owns IMO.

Any reason? The US isn't the freest country in the world. Nor the one with the best government.

[Platypus]

I like America, and think it's one of the best countries out there, I'm glad I was born here etc. etc.

...but I'm not really sure I'm comfortable with some ideas of national "pride," which seem either proxies for nationalism or personal pride.

I'm kind of the same (but about Austral;ia). I'm very happy with Australia and glad to be Australian but actually being proud of being Australian, not so much. Maybe i'm proud to be Melburnian...nah, just very very glad to be Melburnian.

[Smid]

I like America, and think it's one of the best countries out there, I'm glad I was born here etc. etc.

...but I'm not really sure I'm comfortable with some ideas of national "pride," which seem either proxies for nationalism or personal pride.

I'm kind of the same (but about Austral;ia). I'm very happy with Australia and glad to be Australian but actually being proud of being Australian, not so much. Maybe i'm proud to be Melburnian...nah, just very very glad to be Melburnian.

I'm proud to be a Queenslander. We're very parochial. I do love Melbourne, though, and am enjoying living down here.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I can tell when I'm in a different country by looking at the architecture.

Obviously (to a point anyway). But that's not what I meant. What I meant (and mean) is this; when I cross the border between England and Wales is it immediately obvious that I'm now in a different country? The only obvious signs are signs. The landscape is the same. The accents are the same. The architecture is the same. The strangely sweet fumes from the Kronospan works in Chirk don't stop at the border with England. Even placenames are unreliable (choosing one fairly small section of the border as an example; Hengoed, Weston Rhyn, Gobowen and Street Dinas are all in England, while Overton, Bronington, Eyton and Worthenbury are all in Wales).
On the other hand, I know when I'm in Manchester or Birmingham (or, haha, Bangor). I'm not talking about official city boundaries or anything, but cities as a physical entity. You can even tell when you're moving from the suburbs to the city proper.

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Again, I'm not thinking about boundaries, but actual existence.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I see what Al's getting at, but Snowguy is right as well. A nation is a larger collection of cities, and states, and provinces, just like a city is a larger collection of houses and businesses.

Ah, you have to be an American to be able to use the word "nation" is such a free sense

But even in a physical sense a city is more than just a collection of buildings; it has an actual physical existence all of its own. For one thing, they grow. And their growth can be observed;

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Yeeeeeeesssss... but even so border areas will often have more in common with the area on the other side of the border than with the rest of the country that they're in.

[Keystone Phil]

I can tell when I'm in a different country by looking at the architecture.

Obviously (to a point anyway). But that's not what I meant. What I meant (and mean) is this; when I cross the border between England and Wales is it immediately obvious that I'm now in a different country? The only obvious signs are signs. The landscape is the same. The accents are the same. The architecture is the same. The strangely sweet fumes from the Kronospan works in Chirk don't stop at the border with England. Even placenames are unreliable (choosing one fairly small section of the border as an example; Hengoed, Weston Rhyn, Gobowen and Street Dinas are all in England, while Overton, Bronington, Eyton and Worthenbury are all in Wales).

Uh...I can say the same for certain areas that border Philadelphia.

[Ban my account ffs!]

I see what Al's getting at, but Snowguy is right as well. A nation is a larger collection of cities, and states, and provinces, just like a city is a larger collection of houses and businesses.

Ah, you have to be an American to be able to use the word "nation" is such a free sense

But even in a physical sense a city is more than just a collection of buildings; it has an actual physical existence all of its own. For one thing, they grow. And their growth can be observed;

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Yeeeeeeesssss... but even so border areas will often have more in common with the area on the other side of the border than with the rest of the country that they're in.

This is a thread about America... and yes, we can throw the word "nation" around... because we refer to ourselves as a nation.  We are not bound to the confusing political history of words like you Brits are... hence things like public schools actually being private and liberals actually being conservative.

My point is that there is not enough of a difference between a city and a state or country for it to be silly to be proud of one thing and not proud of another.

Being proud because your'e from Minneapolis where 3M is headquartered which invented Scotch tape and the Post It note is not all that different from being proud because you're from Minnesota, where 3M is headquartered....

Americans can be proud that their country invented post it notes... but so can Minnesotans, and so can Minneapolitans.

You cannot, however, be proud as a Minneapolitan, for the invention of Spam, which is actually made in Austin... but despite having been made in Austin, it is still an icon in Minnesotan culture.

As to states have physical existence like a city, you're taking a decidedly European view of it.  In America, city boundaries change whenever it is politically prudent to do so.  Cities like Omaha, Nebraska have ballooned in size geographically because it makes it easier for infrastructure and management purposes.

Nearly all of our cities are planned and the way cities grow is almost completely a political decision as certain areas are zoned for Industrial, commercial, or residential purposes.

This is the same way a state works.  While states are no longer growing or shrinking, it wasn't all that long ago that they were and these were all political decisions as well.  Where the capital was located in a state was not always determined by it being the most prominent or populous city at the time.. many state capitals are in the middle of the state as to make the city equally accessible from all areas within that state.

It's a completely different system here... so might you just think for a second that we find it odd *not* to be proud of your state or country....

[Filuwaúrdjan]

This is a thread about America...

Sure. But general concepts can be applied to America as much as they can to anywhere else.

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More to the point the normal meaning of nation (with all the associated ethnic trappings) has never really been introduced to America. Which I why I wrote that only an American can really use that word is such a free sense.

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I would argue that it's American political terminology that's often bizarre and confusing (American useage of the word "liberal" especially... though the same does apply, to a more limited extent, to "conservative", actually...)

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I don't think that I ever wrote that it's silly to be proud of a country. My answer to the initial question;

The "I'm not an American" answer, I think.

But in a more general sense... I'm I proud to be British? No, I don't think so, it's a little artificial isn't it. Welsh? English? Hmm... I don't know. I certainly don't think "thank God that I'm Welsh and English", but all the same I do love my country, though I'm not entirely sure what "my country" is. In any case, it's more of a gentle emotional pull, no, tug, than a cheast-beating, flag-waving thing.

Moving on...

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Ah, I've written several times now that I'm not talking about official boundaries but, really, almost the city as a landscape (or something like that. Or as something almost alive).

Look at the maps of the growth of Birmingham I posted. See the thick red line? That's the official boundary of the city right now. It's every bit as arbitrary as the boundaries of America cities, perhaps more so because in places it was actually imposed centrally (though Brum suffered less on that count than, say, Leeds).

I'm not talking (writing actually) about the city as-the-officially-sactioned-public-body.

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Same here actually, though zoning is not so common. City vandals planners can be very powerful.

[Хahar 🤔]

Cities don't really exist here, either. There are about 50 of them around these parts, which should be combined into one but never will be.

[Nym90]

I see what Al's getting at, but Snowguy is right as well. A nation is a larger collection of cities, and states, and provinces, just like a city is a larger collection of houses and businesses.

Ah, you have to be an American to be able to use the word "nation" is such a free sense

But even in a physical sense a city is more than just a collection of buildings; it has an actual physical existence all of its own. For one thing, they grow. And their growth can be observed;

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Yeeeeeeesssss... but even so border areas will often have more in common with the area on the other side of the border than with the rest of the country that they're in.

This is a thread about America... and yes, we can throw the word "nation" around... because we refer to ourselves as a nation.  We are not bound to the confusing political history of words like you Brits are... hence things like public schools actually being private and liberals actually being conservative.

My point is that there is not enough of a difference between a city and a state or country for it to be silly to be proud of one thing and not proud of another.

Being proud because your'e from Minneapolis where 3M is headquartered which invented Scotch tape and the Post It note is not all that different from being proud because you're from Minnesota, where 3M is headquartered....

Americans can be proud that their country invented post it notes... but so can Minnesotans, and so can Minneapolitans.

You cannot, however, be proud as a Minneapolitan, for the invention of Spam, which is actually made in Austin... but despite having been made in Austin, it is still an icon in Minnesotan culture.

As to states have physical existence like a city, you're taking a decidedly European view of it.  In America, city boundaries change whenever it is politically prudent to do so.  Cities like Omaha, Nebraska have ballooned in size geographically because it makes it easier for infrastructure and management purposes.

Nearly all of our cities are planned and the way cities grow is almost completely a political decision as certain areas are zoned for Industrial, commercial, or residential purposes.

This is the same way a state works.  While states are no longer growing or shrinking, it wasn't all that long ago that they were and these were all political decisions as well.  Where the capital was located in a state was not always determined by it being the most prominent or populous city at the time.. many state capitals are in the middle of the state as to make the city equally accessible from all areas within that state.

It's a completely different system here... so might you just think for a second that we find it odd *not* to be proud of your state or country....

True, my part of Michigan has more in common with Wisconsin than Michigan (and in some ways, more in common with Canada than the United States).

What you say about cities is correct though in the sense that the people who live within tend to shop in the same places, work in the same places, etc. which makes it more similar than a country or a state.

And yes, coming from a continent where the common usage of nation is the same as country, and not from your continent where people remember its use following "aryan", I am able to use it in that context.