England Turning Resentful of Scottish Desire for Independence

[Frodo]

Scotland's hunger for independence proves annoying in England

By Sarah Lyall
Published: July 17, 2008

EDINBURGH: Stuck in a chronic sports slump, Britons are eternally searching for a home-grown tennis star with a fighting chance of winning Wimbledon. Their latest is 21-year-old Andy Murray, who this summer demonstrated traditional British come-from-behind pluck in advancing to the quarter finals. He finally lost to the eventual champion, Rafael Nadal.

But there was a small problem. Murray is Scottish, and fiercely so. Asked once who he planned to support in the World Cup soccer tournament, he replied: "Anyone but England."

And many English people found his recent behavior at Wimbledon - he emitted warlike whoops, bared his teeth and flexed his biceps in a provocative manner - more suited to a remake of "Braveheart" than to the gentle green courts of west London.

"Part of the reason some of us have found it difficult to like him is that he is so obviously Scottish," the columnist Stephen Glover said bluntly in The Daily Mail. Or, as Tony Parsons wrote in The Daily Mirror: "If the English can survive the attentions of the Luftwaffe, the IRA and Al Qaeda, then I quite fancy our chances against Andy Murray."

Their vehemence was surprising. The English usually tend to regard the Scots as their slightly prickly but relatively harmless and quashable northern cousins. But lately, there has been a newfound resentment in England that has mirrored a growing confidence and sense of nationalistic entitlement - a general flexing of the biceps - in Scotland. With relations at their uneasiest point in decades, there is even talk that unless the balance of power can somehow be renegotiated, the union is in danger of unraveling.

"This is about a shift in British attitudes," said Joyce McMillan, a columnist for The Scotsman newspaper. "We've always been seen as slightly exotic or decorative. But if we start on as if we were some kind of self-determining nation, it provokes a kind of atmosphere of hurt and anger, like 'Oh, what was wrong with the way we were ruling you? Why aren't you grateful?"'

Scotland has been the inferior partner since 1707, when it and its Parliament were subsumed by the larger country of Britain. But three centuries is no time at all in the minds of many Scots, who have fumed in resentment and, to a lesser or greater extent, clamored for independence, ever since.

The current era in Scottish-English relations began in 1997, when Tony Blair's Labour government addressed the persistent irritant of Scottish nationalism by giving the Scots more power to settle their own affairs. Scotland got its own Parliament, with responsibility over areas like health, social services and education.

Devolution, as this transfer in power is called, was supposed to "kill Scottish nationalism stone dead," in the saying of the time. But instead, it has only magnified the Scots' differences with the English.

"What you've had since devolution is that England and Scotland are starting to drift apart culturally and politically, so they seem like entirely different countries," said Guy Lodge, a senior research fellow at the Institute for Public Policy Research, a left-leaning study group in London.

[Albus Dumbledore]

Free scotland and give Ulster back to Ireland.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

These articles seem to get churned out on a semi-regular basis. They're onto something, but, regrettably, an inabilty to actually think means that they don't even bother to find out what it is. Instead we get cliche's and dodgy examples by the bucket-load.

[Torie]

They will be brought back to heel when the oil runs out. My impression, perhaps erroneous,  is that without the oil, Scotland is a welfare case.

[Keystone Phil]

I've always had an interest in the union dissolving. Let Scotland go, give Northern Ireland back and just let Wales...uh...do their own thing, too.

[Torie]

I've always had an interest in the union dissolving. Let Scotland go, give Northern Ireland back and just let Wales...uh...do their own thing, too.

The Northern Irish (a majority) don't want to be given back, and these days the more prosperous Republic of Ireland, doesn't want them. There's the rub.

[Keystone Phil]

I've always had an interest in the union dissolving. Let Scotland go, give Northern Ireland back and just let Wales...uh...do their own thing, too.

The Northern Irish (a majority) don't want to be given back, and these days the more prosperous Republic of Ireland, doesn't want them. There's the rub.

My apologies. I meant give it back (put it to a vote) or even let it become its own, totally independent country.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I've always had an interest in the union dissolving. Let Scotland go, give Northern Ireland back and just let Wales...uh...do their own thing, too.

I've always had an interested in Italy dissolving. Let Lombardy go, give South Tirol back and just let the South... uh... do their own thing, too.

[Keystone Phil]

I've always had an interest in the union dissolving. Let Scotland go, give Northern Ireland back and just let Wales...uh...do their own thing, too.

I've always had an interested in Italy dissolving. Let Lombardy go, give South Tirol back and just let the South... uh... do their own thing, too.

Why be an asshole about it? I have no impact on whether it happens or not. It's just an opinion.

Don't be so hostile because I don't like your "comedy" routine everywhere else, Al. Really. Or are you mad because Wales is rather pointless?

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Why be an asshole about it?

Hmm... what? When? Where? I don't see why calling for the breakup of Italy is anymore absurd than calling for the breakup of the U.K. Historically speaking it makes more sense, actually.

Though as it happens I'm not overfond of nation states at all. Beyond a certain, basically nominal, point at least.

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How is it pointless? Millions of people live here, millions of people work here. A sizeable minority of people still speak the Welsh language and most people speak interesting (and very Welsh) dialects of English. There is a simple but distinctive cuisine, great cultural traditions and much regional diversity. There are cities (small cities mind, but cities all the same), towns, industrial townships, villages, seaside resorts, ports and isolated farmsteads. There are factories, offices, farms, power stations, railway lines, schools, hospitals, chapels, universities, roads, bridges and even a few mines and quarries left. There are mountains, hills, cliffs, coasts, islands, forests and valleys. There are rugby clubs, choirs, football teams, cricket sides, trade unions, heritage organisations, local business groups, farmers rackets organisations, community councils and old radical political and religious traditions that have managed to survive, in one form or another, for a few centuries now. And so on and so forth. I don't see what's so pointless about all that. Wales is certainly no more pointless than Sicily. Or Pennsylvania, for that matter.

Tragically, we have the crachach as well. But then everywhere must have a self-annointed elite to despise.

[Albus Dumbledore]

Wales has more point than pennsylvania hth. Pennsylvania is the michigan of the east coast.

[Keystone Phil]

Hmm... what? When? Where? I don't see why calling for the breakup of Italy is anymore absurd than calling for the breakup of the U.K. Historically speaking it makes more sense, actually.

Though as it happens I'm not overfond of nation states at all. Beyond a certain, basically nominal, point at least.

You only responded the way I did to get under my skin. It wasn't relevant to the discussion.

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Sicily and Pennsylvania aren't countries. Sicily and Pennsylvania each have a better economy than Wales. Sicily and Pennsylvania actually have much more major destination points. Sicily and Pennsylvania have a much more interesting history.

I can see this going on for awhile but I'll just say that my not so serious comment was only posted because you wanted to pick a fight about Italy. I wasn't looking to insult anyone concerning the break up of the United Kingdom. I've posted quite seriously about it in the past.

[Albus Dumbledore]

Free Padania!

[Torie]

Why be an asshole about it?

Hmm... what? When? Where? I don't see why calling for the breakup of Italy is anymore absurd than calling for the breakup of the U.K. Historically speaking it makes more sense, actually.

Though as it happens I'm not overfond of nation states at all. Beyond a certain, basically nominal, point at least.

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How is it pointless? Millions of people live here, millions of people work here. A sizeable minority of people still speak the Welsh language and most people speak interesting (and very Welsh) dialects of English. There is a simple but distinctive cuisine, great cultural traditions and much regional diversity. There are cities (small cities mind, but cities all the same), towns, industrial townships, villages, seaside resorts, ports and isolated farmsteads. There are factories, offices, farms, power stations, railway lines, schools, hospitals, chapels, universities, roads, bridges and even a few mines and quarries left. There are mountains, hills, cliffs, coasts, islands, forests and valleys. There are rugby clubs, choirs, football teams, cricket sides, trade unions, heritage organisations, local business groups, farmers rackets organisations, community councils and old radical political and religious traditions that have managed to survive, in one form or another, for a few centuries now. And so on and so forth. I don't see what's so pointless about all that. Wales is certainly no more pointless than Sicily. Or Pennsylvania, for that matter.

Tragically, we have the crachach as well. But then everywhere must have a self-annointed elite to despise.

I am amazed you did not mention the Welsh gift of voice and song. That is what "we" know abut Wales, other than coal mines (closed now no?), and that Thomas Jefferson was of allegedly Welsh ancestry, along with allegedly my Dad, but the latter  seems more myth than reality, despite sporting the first name Lloyd.

Phil, I am not sure Sicily has a "better economy" than Wales, but Milan certainly does.

Naples has some nasty slums surrounding it, as you will see when you go there.

[The Man From G.O.P.]

Shame on Welsh bashers, Phil I must say I don't think a Southern Italian wants to argue about who is from a backwater area of their country, Wales had cable.



Everyone cool it anyway.



God save the Queen and the Union.

[Keystone Phil]

Naples has some nasty slums surrounding it, as you will see when you go there.

I've been there. It doesn't seem that bad though I don't live there so I haven't truly experienced it.

I don't think a Southern Italian wants to argue about who is from a backwater area of their country

Often exaggerated.

[minionofmidas]

Millions of people live here, millions of people work here.

Three of them.

Sicily and Pennsylvania aren't countries.

Of course Sicily is a country! 900 years of Norman, Spanish, Napolitan and Piemontese enslavement cannot end that!
Sicily and Pennsylvania each have a better economy than Wales. [/quote]Pennsylvania yes. Sicily no.

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Eh. Pretty much a wash. Include business trips and Pennsylvania heads this table. Exclude em and it sinks to the bottom.

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As extremely fascinating as Welsh history is, Sicily has Wales beat here.

Putting Pennsylvania (or any other of the random divisions of the US, frankly, as opposed to the US at large) in here would be an insult to basic human intelligence if it weren't a symptom of local pride, which is of course perfectly fine.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

I am amazed you did not mention the Welsh gift of voice and song.

I wanted to avoid stereotyping

But I did mention choirs...

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That's because all "you" know about Wales is How Green Was My Valley

(and not quite; all the deep mines are gone, but there are quite a few drift mines and opencast works left)

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Three of them.

Yes, yes, details, details

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Sort of obvious when you consider where Sicily is

[Filuwaúrdjan]

You only responded the way I did to get under my skin.

Of course.

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Nonsense. It was most certainly relevant to the discussion. All I did was take an argument and change a few minor details.

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Lewis hath dealt with this already

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When did I do that [qm].

[afleitch]

They will be brought back to heel when the oil runs out. My impression, perhaps erroneous,  is that without the oil, Scotland is a welfare case.

I would disagree. Scotland has, financially speaking, greater wind, wave and hydroelectric energy potential than it ever would with oil. It also has great potential when it comes to clean coal (if that process is ever refined). We are also currently a net energy exporter without oil and also a net exporter of fresh water (for which we pay higher water rates because we have to pay for the upkeep of the infrastructure )

[Torie]

Yes, but how does one make money off of all of that?  Can Scotland make a living selling electricity to England?

[J. J.]

Quick, call the the Duke of Cumberland.

[Јas]

I've always had an interest in the union dissolving. Let Scotland go, give Northern Ireland back and just let Wales...uh...do their own thing, too.

The Northern Irish (a majority) don't want to be given back, and these days the more prosperous Republic of Ireland, doesn't want them. There's the rub.

Mmm...I don't want to hijack this thread, so I shall try to be brief.
First, yes a majority of that construct known as Northern Ireland would not favour unification - however, that majority is narrowing and it's not inconceivable that it could overturn in a couple of generations, possibly even in my lifetime.

Second, the great majority of the population in the South favour unification. However, there is a recognition here that 50% +1 of the voting population of the North is insufficient because if unification is going to take place with any success it would require the acceptance of the Unionists. This has been the accepted position for some time here and was effectively chisseled into stone with the Good Friday Agreement. The Government's policy has been to promote cross-border co-operation at every opportunity and to generally work a charm offensive with the Unionists. Today, relations between the Irish Government and the DUP are comfortable, even genial - which is considerable progress when you consider that they used to distrust and hate us even more than BRTD does, for example.

[Хahar 🤔]

Sicily and Pennsylvania have a much more interesting history.

Go and read about Welsh history sometime.