Opinion of Jesus Christ

[dead0man]

Huge FF. Now if only Christians actually followed what he preached, America the world would be a better place.

[Franzl]

Huge FF. Now if only Christians actually followed what he preached, America the world would be a better place.

while that's undoubtedly true, American Christians, in my experience, can be particularly un-Christian.

The strongest proponents of....say: capital punishment, banning gay marriage, abolishing welfare all not only call themselves Christians, but try to find a basis for their positions in Christianity, which is even more disgusting.

Of course this shouldn't be used as a generalization. Those are just fractions of any population.

[dead0man]

Do you think Jesus wanted us to form huge, wastefull govts to feed the poor?  Or do you think he wanted us as individuals to feed the poor?

[Franzl]

Do you think Jesus wanted us to form huge, wastefull govts to feed the poor?  Or do you think he wanted us as individuals to feed the poor?

most certainly as individuals, but Jesus wasn't familiar with the way things really work

[dead0man]

Well, they would work just fine if more people did what He wanted them to do.  I'd guess if Christians stopped giving 10% of their gross income to the church and started giving it straight to the ones who need it, that we'd all be better off...and pretty quickly too.

[Franzl]

Well, they would work just fine if more people did what He wanted them to do.  I'd guess if Christians stopped giving 10% of their gross income to the church and started giving it straight to the ones who need it, that we'd all be better off...and pretty quickly too.

yes, that's true.

My point wasn't about the exact procedures though. I intended to show that many principles of Christians in this country practically contradict their religion. You will find a good amount of them that, in fact, wouldn't donate anything to the needy. They'd back it up with something like: "if those lazy bums just got off their butts....."

Or really, take different issues. The most hypocritical one is probably capital punishment. They pick and choose parts of the Old Testament, while completely ignoring what Jesus himself said.

Or take global warming (I do NOT want to argue with you about this topic, I'm just using it as an example): Fundies say "God created the Earth, and I'm convinced that nothing we humans do could possibly destroy it. So therefore, man-made global warming is a hoax." And simultaneously, these same Christians preach about "God given free will".

The hypocrisy gets to me after a while.

[dead0man]

Oh no doubt.  I agree with you 100%.  I was just pointing out that Jesus wouldn't have preferred the govt to solve the problem, He would want us to do it.  Jesus was a kind individualist, not a bleeding heart socialist.

[King]

Jesus was a FF, his devout followers are mostly HP, however.

[John Dibble]

Jesus was a FF, his devout followers are mostly HP, however.

Isn't that why their religion says the need Jesus?

[JSojourner]

Oh no doubt.  I agree with you 100%.  I was just pointing out that Jesus wouldn't have preferred the govt to solve the problem, He would want us to do it.  Jesus was a kind individualist, not a bleeding heart socialist.

This is the problem I have with false choices.  The Bible is pretty clear that solving these problems is everyone's job.  Church, individuals and government.  The judgment of the nations in Matthew 25 is key.  "Whatever you did for the least of these, you did to me."  If Jesus is speaking to individuals, what happens to the Christian doctrine that we are saved by grace and not works?  More, the Greek word for "nations" implies a group judgment.  "Ethnos" specifically implies that rulers and legislators are enjoined, with individuals, to the task of ending poverty, comforting the sick and visiting prisoners.

The Old Testament  reinforces this in Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah and elsewhere.  Kings, rulers, leaders and individuals are all held accountable, judged and punished for refusing to aid the poor and the marginalized.  Jeremiah 22 is particularly instructive.  There, Kings and rulers are called to the gate of the city to hear the word of God and are told that the previous King "knew the Lord" because he treated workers with justice, fed the poor and so on..."rather than paneling his walls with fine cedar".

The problem I have is that liberals say it's all government's job, as though individuals (including the poor themselves) have no responsibility in the matter.  The problem I have with conservatives and libertarians is that they say it's all the work of churches and individuals, as though government has no responsibility in the matter.  It's an either-or, false choice that I refuse to accept on Biblical grounds.

[Citizen James]

Huge FF. Now if only Christians actually followed what he preached, America would be a better place.

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[7,052,770]

Huge FF. Now if only Christians actually followed what he preached, America would be a better place.

[DownWithTheLeft]

Huge FF. Now if only Christians actually followed what he preached, America would be a better place.

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Guess this confirms Gandhi was a moron

[Torie]

I don't think the Bible is a very useful public policy manual myself. But then I might be biased.

[Sbane]

Huge FF. Now if only Christians actually followed what he preached, America would be a better place.

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Guess this confirms Gandhi was a moron

I don't agree with Gandhi's economics either but you are a 100 times more moronic than Gandhi was.

[Associate Justice PiT]

I don't think the Bible is a very useful public policy manual myself. But then I might be biased.

     I cannot overemphasize how much I agree. In my view, people who wish to legislate from the Bible are the greatest threat to the nation today. If the Republicans had nominated Huckabee, I would have immediately left the party.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Huge FF. Now if only Christians actually followed what he preached, America would be a better place.

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Guess this confirms Gandhi was a moron

He had a point, actually. And one that's stronger, in some ways, now than in the '30's or '40's or whenever he said it. Though, to a point, he also missed the point, or at least an important part of it.

[Verily]

So little of what he actually did and said is known that I can't possibly pass judgment.

[dead0man]

Oh no doubt.  I agree with you 100%.  I was just pointing out that Jesus wouldn't have preferred the govt to solve the problem, He would want us to do it.  Jesus was a kind individualist, not a bleeding heart socialist.

This is the problem I have with false choices.  The Bible is pretty clear that solving these problems is everyone's job.  Church, individuals and government.  The judgment of the nations in Matthew 25 is key.  "Whatever you did for the least of these, you did to me."  If Jesus is speaking to individuals, what happens to the Christian doctrine that we are saved by grace and not works?  More, the Greek word for "nations" implies a group judgment.  "Ethnos" specifically implies that rulers and legislators are enjoined, with individuals, to the task of ending poverty, comforting the sick and visiting prisoners.

The Old Testament  reinforces this in Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah and elsewhere.  Kings, rulers, leaders and individuals are all held accountable, judged and punished for refusing to aid the poor and the marginalized.  Jeremiah 22 is particularly instructive.  There, Kings and rulers are called to the gate of the city to hear the word of God and are told that the previous King "knew the Lord" because he treated workers with justice, fed the poor and so on..."rather than paneling his walls with fine cedar".

The problem I have is that liberals say it's all government's job, as though individuals (including the poor themselves) have no responsibility in the matter.  The problem I have with conservatives and libertarians is that they say it's all the work of churches and individuals, as though government has no responsibility in the matter.  It's an either-or, false choice that I refuse to accept on Biblical grounds.

You win this round Batman!  Excellent points.

[JSojourner]

Oh no doubt.  I agree with you 100%.  I was just pointing out that Jesus wouldn't have preferred the govt to solve the problem, He would want us to do it.  Jesus was a kind individualist, not a bleeding heart socialist.

This is the problem I have with false choices.  The Bible is pretty clear that solving these problems is everyone's job.  Church, individuals and government.  The judgment of the nations in Matthew 25 is key.  "Whatever you did for the least of these, you did to me."  If Jesus is speaking to individuals, what happens to the Christian doctrine that we are saved by grace and not works?  More, the Greek word for "nations" implies a group judgment.  "Ethnos" specifically implies that rulers and legislators are enjoined, with individuals, to the task of ending poverty, comforting the sick and visiting prisoners.

The Old Testament  reinforces this in Amos, Isaiah, Jeremiah and elsewhere.  Kings, rulers, leaders and individuals are all held accountable, judged and punished for refusing to aid the poor and the marginalized.  Jeremiah 22 is particularly instructive.  There, Kings and rulers are called to the gate of the city to hear the word of God and are told that the previous King "knew the Lord" because he treated workers with justice, fed the poor and so on..."rather than paneling his walls with fine cedar".

The problem I have is that liberals say it's all government's job, as though individuals (including the poor themselves) have no responsibility in the matter.  The problem I have with conservatives and libertarians is that they say it's all the work of churches and individuals, as though government has no responsibility in the matter.  It's an either-or, false choice that I refuse to accept on Biblical grounds.

You win this round Batman!  Excellent points.

Nah, you keep holding our feet to the fire.  We are idiots if we think it's up to government alone or that the poor themselves bear no responsibility.  This is why liberals need strong conservative and libertarian voices to keep us honest.  I hate that this tension exists in our country -- and yet, I shudder to think about what it would be without it!

As to Torie's comment about legislating from the Bible, I basically agree.  I think one can draw one's philosophy of governing from sacred writ, without legislating from it, however.  But he's spot-on.  It's a terribly slippery slope. 

[useful idiot]

Just another Jew in show business....

[DownWithTheLeft]

He had a point, actually. And one that's stronger, in some ways, now than in the '30's or '40's or whenever he said it. Though, to a point, he also missed the point, or at least an important part of it.

My problem with the quote is the BRTD-esque sweeping generalization he makes

[Sbane]

He had a point, actually. And one that's stronger, in some ways, now than in the '30's or '40's or whenever he said it. Though, to a point, he also missed the point, or at least an important part of it.

My problem with the quote is the BRTD-esque sweeping generalization he makes

Back in the day only western nations could afford to live in a materialistic society. Now....it's a different story.

[dead0man]

Nah, you keep holding our feet to the fire.

Oh, I'm not stopping.  I love being "corrected", and try to acknowledge those that do it.  Thank you.

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Again, you are 100% correct and I feel the same way about lefties.  We need to hear those arguments so we don't forget how silly and broken they often are.  We need people that think communism can work if we just give it one.more.chance. so we can remind them (and ourselves) how horrible it's always been in practice.  And we need the idiot far right as well.  We need to remind each other from time to time that hating all black people (or Jews or Mexicans or whatever) because of stereotypes isn't right and is only practiced by ignorant assholes.  We need those ignorant assholes.  They need to be free to spew their filth so we can see how putrid and petty these people are, make fun of them and teach our children why those kind of thoughts are wrong and moronic.

Yet another reason liberal democracy with broad individual freedoms is the best form of govt yet.