Obama on Small-Town Pennsylvania...

[Brittain33]

Seeing that most of the complaints are coming from Republicans I'm not so worried.

[J. J.]

Never said that. Again, there's nothing inherently wrong or inferior about voting on those issues; Obama's statement was just one of fact, that when people feel no hope on issues like the economy, they turn to others. It's our fault as Democrats as much as anything for allowing those bread and butter issues to fall off people's radar screens.

Nym, please explain how guns and religion are related to to the decline of manufacturing in PA?

[Brittain33]

I think its funny both Clinton and McCain are calling Obama the elitist when both candidates probably have more money and more wealth than Obama could ever imagine having. What a load

Elitism isn't just based on wealth.

True, it's also based on your parents' privilege and the educational opportunities that go along with it.

[Torie]

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In wading through the bridgework about you dislike of the art of economics, I think I see the nub of your thesis. The US should go through periodic bouts of protectionism, so that the vulnerable can do some weight lifting, and muscle up, before having to get back into the dog eat dog global ring. Alas, the evidence is what happens is that the safety net causes coach potato behavior, and the muscles atrophy even more, until there comes a point that there is no fight left in the corpus; it's all adipose. Sometime adverting to empirical experience is useful. Protectionist regimes, even if meant to be temporary, never caused an increase in economic fitness.

[Wiz in Wis]

I think its funny both Clinton and McCain are calling Obama the elitist when both candidates probably have more money and more wealth than Obama could ever imagine having. What a load

Elitism isn't just based on wealth.

True, it's also based on your parents' privilege and the educational opportunities that go along with it.

McCain is the son and grandson of Admirals, and grew up with a lot of privilige. HOWEVER, he has certainly put his life on the line for his country. He doesn't come across as elitiest to me.

Hillary was born into a rich family, and has been in the circles of power her entire adult life. If anyone in this three way is elitist. its her. Bill goes a long way in removing that stain from her, probably one of the biggest assets he brings to the table for his wife.

[12th Doctor]

I think its funny both Clinton and McCain are calling Obama the elitist when both candidates probably have more money and more wealth than Obama could ever imagine having. What a load

Elitism isn't just based on wealth.

True, it's also based on your parents' privilege and the educational opportunities that go along with it.

Obama went to Columbia and Harvard.  Good argument.  Using your guidelines, McCain is easily the least elitist of the bunch.

[12th Doctor]

Seeing that most of the complaints are coming from Republicans I'm not so worried.

If you actually got out into the wider blogosphere, though, where fewer people are as concerned with marching in lock-step as they seem to be here in this forum, this thing has exploded.

I've already counted six Democrats who now say they defiantly will not vote for Obama in the primary or general, and several more who are leaning that way.  Waiting to get the paper today.

[Person Man]

Never said that. Again, there's nothing inherently wrong or inferior about voting on those issues; Obama's statement was just one of fact, that when people feel no hope on issues like the economy, they turn to others. It's our fault as Democrats as much as anything for allowing those bread and butter issues to fall off people's radar screens.

Nym, please explain how guns and religion are related to to the decline of manufacturing in PA?

They're not. They're just issues people can actually win on.

You must be logged in to read this quote.

In wading through the bridgework about you dislike of the art of economics, I think I see the nub of your thesis. The US should go through periodic bouts of protectionism, so that the vulnerable can do some weight lifting, and muscle up, before having to get back into the dog eat dog global ring. Alas, the evidence is what happens is that the safety net causes coach potato behavior, and the muscles atrophy even more, until there comes a point that there is no fight left in the corpus; it's all adipose. Sometime adverting to empirical experience is useful. Protectionist regimes, even if meant to be temporary, ever caused an increase in economic fitness.

So it just comes down to calling the average worker lazy? This is why economics is bad science. It's based on generalizations, elitism and psuedo psychology.  We see what you priorities are. ...and temporary protectionist regimes WORK.... Why can't you buy a thing made in America anymore? Its because most things comes from countries that used my method.

I think its funny both Clinton and McCain are calling Obama the elitist when both candidates probably have more money and more wealth than Obama could ever imagine having. What a load

Elitism isn't just based on wealth.

True, it's also based on your parents' privilege and the educational opportunities that go along with it.

McCain is the son and grandson of Admirals, and grew up with a lot of privilige. HOWEVER, he has certainly put his life on the line for his country. He doesn't come across as elitiest to me.

Hillary was born into a rich family, and has been in the circles of power her entire adult life. If anyone in this three way is elitist. its her. Bill goes a long way in removing that stain from her, probably one of the biggest assets he brings to the table for his wife.

Does that make Cleland and Kerry populist?

[Flying Dog]

Seeing that most of the complaints are coming from Republicans I'm not so worried.

If you actually got out into the wider blogosphere, though, where fewer people are as concerned with marching in lock-step as they seem to be here in this forum, this thing has exploded.

I've already counted six Democrats who now say they defiantly will not vote for Obama in the primary or general, and several more who are leaning that way.  Waiting to get the paper today.

Ok..Republicans and Hillary supporters. They'll come around by the General....typical of Hillary supporters trying to insight fear into the prospect of an Obama Candidacy. It is, after all, there only hope to win. 

[Wiz in Wis]

I think its funny both Clinton and McCain are calling Obama the elitist when both candidates probably have more money and more wealth than Obama could ever imagine having. What a load

Elitism isn't just based on wealth.

True, it's also based on your parents' privilege and the educational opportunities that go along with it.

Obama went to Columbia and Harvard.  Good argument.  Using your guidelines, McCain is easily the least elitist of the bunch.

You know, I'm really tired of this anti-education crap from Republicans. Heaven forbid you go to an elite school based on your intelligence. May I remind you he was the son of a single mom who was abandoned by his father and was only able to attend those schools because he persevered through his own intelligence and hard work. Yes, McCain has a strong background, and I wouldn't call him elite. But just because you work your ass off to get to college and make the most of yourself, doesn't make you elitest. Sheesh

[Sam Spade]

If this forum was an accurate slice of ordinary people in America, I would have no interest in posting here.  

Perhaps, it is an accurate slice of 18-21 year-old Obama supporters and a couple of posters perhaps represent the typical Kossack, but as to other people outside this demographic, most posters can only assess these persons through their own limited worldview, so naturally everything is wrong.  It's kind of like trying to talk to a New Yorker about northern Florida - with most there is simply no hope.

This remark has caused damage, will continue to cause damage and I almost don't know what can be done to stop it for now, except for ignoring it (which would be my strategy - let it die down) or apologizing for it (which will never be done)

(now for those of you with above-average examination skills - I have now done an Obamaization on the forum community)  

[Flying Dog]

Stereotyping an Obama supporter. You elitist!!!

[Wiz in Wis]

There are 10 days before Pennsylvania... the real fireworks will be the debate. If Hillary goes after Obama on this, He may unload all holy fury on her. This type of response from Her will get him pissed off, and like in SC, he will slam her for her "midwestern values" That is what I am looking forward to.

[12th Doctor]

Stereotyping an Obama supporter. You elitist!!!

He's a typical White person.

[exopolitician]

If this forum was an accurate slice of ordinary people in America, I would have no interest in posting here.  

Perhaps, it is an accurate slice of 18-21 year-old Obama supporters and a couple of posters perhaps represent the typical Kossack, but as to other people outside this demographic, most posters can only assess these persons through their own limited worldview, so naturally everything is wrong.  It's kind of like trying to talk to a New Yorker about northern Florida - with most there is simply no hope.

This remark has caused damage, will continue to cause damage and I almost don't know what can be done to stop it for now, except for ignoring it (which would be my strategy - let it die down) or apologizing for it (which will never be done)

(now for those of you with above-average examination skills - I have now done an Obamaization on the forum community)  

I think hes done enough and actually practically backtracked on what he said. Its one thing to correct yourself and then move on and its another to correct yourself then get on your knees and kiss peoples ass and beg for forgiveness...like some people seem like they want him him to do. He shouldnt have to spend his whole time talking about this and he isnt.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

It's not elitist.  Maybe out of touch and stereotyping a bit, but not elitist.

[Flying Dog]

Uh oh! The Republicans and Hillary Hacks have the bulldozers out! They must be trying to make another mountain out of a molehill!

[opebo]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

In wading through the bridgework about you dislike of the art of economics, I think I see the nub of your thesis. The US should go through periodic bouts of protectionism, so that the vulnerable can do some weight lifting, and muscle up, before having to get back into the dog eat dog global ring. Alas, the evidence is what happens is that the safety net causes coach potato behavior, and the muscles atrophy even more, until there comes a point that there is no fight left in the corpus; it's all adipose. Sometime adverting to empirical experience is useful. Protectionist regimes, even if meant to be temporary, ever caused an increase in economic fitness.

Tory has no idea what he is talking about, as 'competition' has nothing to do with economics.  Rather it is a politically imposed condition, forced upon workers by the State.  Another way to look at it is that the State must ensure that all benefits flow to the owners - the best way to do this is to make accessible to them the slave labourers of places such as China.  This undercuts the political position of workers in the US, who never had any power anyway, thus ensuring continued owner dominance.

The pretense that this is some sort of  immutable or 'neutral' 'law of economics' is assinine.  It is simply political power - one human bashing the others to make them pay.

[12th Doctor]

I think its funny both Clinton and McCain are calling Obama the elitist when both candidates probably have more money and more wealth than Obama could ever imagine having. What a load

Elitism isn't just based on wealth.

True, it's also based on your parents' privilege and the educational opportunities that go along with it.

Obama went to Columbia and Harvard.  Good argument.  Using your guidelines, McCain is easily the least elitist of the bunch.

You know, I'm really tired of this anti-education crap from Republicans. Heaven forbid you go to an elite school based on your intelligence. May I remind you he was the son of a single mom who was abandoned by his father and was only able to attend those schools because he persevered through his own intelligence and hard work. Yes, McCain has a strong background, and I wouldn't call him elite. But just because you work your ass off to get to college and make the most of yourself, doesn't make you elitest. Sheesh

There is something called context here, I suggest you look into it.  I wasn't saying people are elitist for having that kinda education.  I was refuting the claim that elitism and education opportunities go hand and hand.

There are 10 days before Pennsylvania... the real fireworks will be the debate. If Hillary goes after Obama on this, He may unload all holy fury on her. This type of response from Her will get him pissed off, and like in SC, he will slam her for her "midwestern values" That is what I am looking forward to.

Yeah, I hope he does, because if he thinks he can do that here, he is gonna get trashed today, tomorrow and in November.

[Bono]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

In wading through the bridgework about you dislike of the art of economics, I think I see the nub of your thesis. The US should go through periodic bouts of protectionism, so that the vulnerable can do some weight lifting, and muscle up, before having to get back into the dog eat dog global ring. Alas, the evidence is what happens is that the safety net causes coach potato behavior, and the muscles atrophy even more, until there comes a point that there is no fight left in the corpus; it's all adipose. Sometime adverting to empirical experience is useful. Protectionist regimes, even if meant to be temporary, ever caused an increase in economic fitness.

Tory has no idea what he is talking about, as 'competition' has nothing to do with economics.  Rather it is a politically imposed condition, forced upon workers by the State.  Another way to look at it is that the State must ensure that all benefits flow to the owners - the best way to do this is to make accessible to them the slave labourers of places such as China.  This undercuts the political position of workers in the US, who never had any power anyway, thus ensuring continued owner dominance.

The pretense that this is some sort of  immutable or 'neutral' 'law of economics' is assinine.  It is simply political power - one human bashing the others to make them pay.

Yea, people in China were livin' it up before western investment.

[J. J.]

Never said that. Again, there's nothing inherently wrong or inferior about voting on those issues; Obama's statement was just one of fact, that when people feel no hope on issues like the economy, they turn to others. It's our fault as Democrats as much as anything for allowing those bread and butter issues to fall off people's radar screens.

Nym, please explain how guns and religion are related to to the decline of manufacturing in PA?

They're not. They're just issues people can actually win on.

Then why inject it here.  Frankly, Obama is wrong on the history and he is stereotyping here.  Not the person I want for President.  If I could vote in the Primary it would be against Obama.

[opebo]

You must be logged in to read this quote.

In wading through the bridgework about you dislike of the art of economics, I think I see the nub of your thesis. The US should go through periodic bouts of protectionism, so that the vulnerable can do some weight lifting, and muscle up, before having to get back into the dog eat dog global ring. Alas, the evidence is what happens is that the safety net causes coach potato behavior, and the muscles atrophy even more, until there comes a point that there is no fight left in the corpus; it's all adipose. Sometime adverting to empirical experience is useful. Protectionist regimes, even if meant to be temporary, ever caused an increase in economic fitness.

Tory has no idea what he is talking about, as 'competition' has nothing to do with economics.  Rather it is a politically imposed condition, forced upon workers by the State.  Another way to look at it is that the State must ensure that all benefits flow to the owners - the best way to do this is to make accessible to them the slave labourers of places such as China.  This undercuts the political position of workers in the US, who never had any power anyway, thus ensuring continued owner dominance.

The pretense that this is some sort of  immutable or 'neutral' 'law of economics' is assinine.  It is simply political power - one human bashing the others to make them pay.

Yea, people in China were livin' it up before western investment.

Your comment is completely irrelevant to my post, Bono, you simpleton. 

[12th Doctor]

Uh oh! The Republicans and Hillary Hacks have the bulldozers out! They must be trying to make another mountain out of a molehill!

I can't believe you of all people are so anxious about towing the line for this guy.  He's a fraud.  The hope he claims to offer is a fraud.  His whole "search for self" is a fraud.  His claims to be able to unify the country and about how he loves and respects everyone are a fraud.  It's all fake.  How can you buy into it?

[J. J.]

I Googled "Obama" and "bitter" and got more than 500,000 hits.

[opebo]

Uh oh! The Republicans and Hillary Hacks have the bulldozers out! They must be trying to make another mountain out of a molehill!

I can't believe you of all people are so anxious about towing the line for this guy.  He's a fraud.  The hope he claims to offer is a fraud.  His whole "search for self" is a fraud.  His claims to be able to unify the country and about how he loves and respects everyone are a fraud.  It's all fake.  How can you buy into it?

Because he is so enormously better, regardless, than the other two horrible right-wing monsters.  Obviously.