Reps and Religion?

[Bacon King]

and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you

Now, I'm no biblical scholar or anything, but doesn't the line, "Give to God that which is God's, and give to Caesar that which is Caesar's," imply that government and religion are two distinct and separate spheres?

[Jaggerjack]

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

Our government's supposed to be secular (and Christianity isn't the only "right" religion; people can choose whatever the hell they want to believe)

[Josh/Devilman88]

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

Well from one Christian to another, we can't push our views on others. Did Jesus push his views on others? No, he simply told them want he believe. God created humans to have the will to choose the paths in their life, whether it is right or wrong. Having the Government controling what morals to push on the people is a very bad idea, because you can get someone in power like Hitler, then what? The fact is we have free will to do what we want when we want.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Even if Christianity were the minority religion, it's still the only right religion.

Please do not clutter up the forum with your useless assertions of personal preference, Inks.  There cannot be any objective morality, as evidenced by the fact that while you like christianity, I dislike it.

The only thing that matters is who has the gun, Inks old boy.  Right now you religious have it.. better hope it stays that way.

It's not personal preference - a question was asked, and I answered it honestly (offensively, but honestly).

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

Well from one Christian to another, we can't push our views on others. Did Jesus push his views on others? No, he simply told them want he believe. God created humans to have the will to choose the paths in their life, whether it is right or wrong. Having the Government controling what morals to push on the people is a very bad idea, because you can get someone in power like Hitler, then what? The fact is we have free will to do what we want when we want.

There's a difference b/t morals and clear commands that God wants to government to legislate.

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

Our government's supposed to be secular (and Christianity isn't the only "right" religion; people can choose whatever the hell they want to believe)

No - it was founded on Christianity.

and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you

Now, I'm no biblical scholar or anything, but doesn't the line, "Give to God that which is God's, and give to Caesar that which is Caesar's," imply that government and religion are two distinct and separate spheres?

Yeah - separate when it comes to "optional" things like that quote - giving and tithing - not murder or other things.

Tell me, why is murder illegal?

[Undisguised Sockpuppet]

The abrahamic religions are only tolerable when they're a SMALL minority of the population and more or less socially excluded from paths to power. We don't have any difficulties with jews in most of the west or (native born) Muslims in America which proves this right.

[Bacon King]

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Now, I'm no biblical scholar or anything, but doesn't the line, "Give to God that which is God's, and give to Caesar that which is Caesar's," imply that government and religion are two distinct and separate spheres?
[/quote]

Yeah - separate when it comes to "optional" things like that quote - giving and tithing - not murder or other things.
[/quote]

I believe Jesus's line I quoted was directly referring to taxation. Tell me: since when have taxes been "optional"?

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Come on now. The fact that murder is bad is in no way a Christian thing. Murder is against the law because the institution of government, as stated in the declaration of independance and such, is meant to preserve the right of life.

If the illegality of murder is due to strictly Christian influences, as you argue, then why was murder against the law in the soviet union?

[HappyWarrior]

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Now, I'm no biblical scholar or anything, but doesn't the line, "Give to God that which is God's, and give to Caesar that which is Caesar's," imply that government and religion are two distinct and separate spheres?

Yeah - separate when it comes to "optional" things like that quote - giving and tithing - not murder or other things.
[/quote]

I believe Jesus's line I quoted was directly referring to taxation. Tell me: since when have taxes been "optional"?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Come on now. The fact that murder is bad is in no way a Christian thing. Murder is against the law because the institution of government, as stated in the declaration of independance and such, is meant to preserve the right of life.

If the illegality of murder is due to strictly Christian influences, as you argue, then why was murder against the law in the soviet union?
[/quote]

The fact is that  hatred for murder is part of our DNA, it's because no species wants to die out and if it's members start murdering eachother thats what will happen.  It's like cannibalism, we're repulsed by it because we are programmed for it.  Other animals like lizards are perfectly happy eating their own kind.

[Josh/Devilman88]

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

Well from one Christian to another, we can't push our views on others. Did Jesus push his views on others? No, he simply told them want he believe. God created humans to have the will to choose the paths in their life, whether it is right or wrong. Having the Government controling what morals to push on the people is a very bad idea, because you can get someone in power like Hitler, then what? The fact is we have free will to do what we want when we want.

There's a difference b/t morals and clear commands that God wants to government to legislate.

The fact is, you want to push our views on others and that is wrong. You tell them and show them what the Bible says, plant the seed, God will do the rest. We do not go around pushing veiws on non christain, because 99% of the times that pushes them away from God.

[Jaggerjack]

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

Well from one Christian to another, we can't push our views on others. Did Jesus push his views on others? No, he simply told them want he believe. God created humans to have the will to choose the paths in their life, whether it is right or wrong. Having the Government controling what morals to push on the people is a very bad idea, because you can get someone in power like Hitler, then what? The fact is we have free will to do what we want when we want.

There's a difference b/t morals and clear commands that God wants to government to legislate.

The fact is, you want to push our views on others and that is wrong. You tell them and show them what the Bible says, plant the seed, God will do the rest. We do not go around pushing veiws on non christain, because 99% of the times that pushes them away from God.

Here's the truth.

I remember while I was in Jersey, there was this Chinese Christian fundie who tried to convert me. What really bothered me was her complete denial of scientific discoveries, her sheer arrogance, and her sheer stupidity (I remember her saying, "you and your cousin have similar DNA, does that mean you're descended from her?") Not to mention she'd get so CORNY in trying to convert me ("BUT ZOMG THESE PSALMS GIVE ME STRENGTH WHEN I'M SAD!") Even when I made it perfectly clear I wouldn't convert, she just didn't get it until I told her, "I DON'T CARE." She pretty much killed any chance of me becoming a Christian.

[Josh/Devilman88]

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

Well from one Christian to another, we can't push our views on others. Did Jesus push his views on others? No, he simply told them want he believe. God created humans to have the will to choose the paths in their life, whether it is right or wrong. Having the Government controling what morals to push on the people is a very bad idea, because you can get someone in power like Hitler, then what? The fact is we have free will to do what we want when we want.

There's a difference b/t morals and clear commands that God wants to government to legislate.

The fact is, you want to push our views on others and that is wrong. You tell them and show them what the Bible says, plant the seed, God will do the rest. We do not go around pushing veiws on non christain, because 99% of the times that pushes them away from God.

Here's the truth.

I remember while I was in Jersey, there was this Chinese Christian fundie who tried to convert me. What really bothered me was her complete denial of scientific discoveries, her sheer arrogance, and her sheer stupidity (I remember her saying, "you and your cousin have similar DNA, does that mean you're descended from her?") Not to mention she'd get so CORNY in trying to convert me ("BUT ZOMG THESE PSALMS GIVE ME STRENGTH WHEN I'M SAD!") Even when I made it perfectly clear I wouldn't convert, she just didn't get it until I told her, "I DON'T CARE." She pretty much killed any chance of me becoming a Christian.

See, that is what I'm talking about, maybe if she didn't push it on you like Inks wants us to, then just maybe you might have turned around and gave it a chance to go to church or learn more about it. But as long as there are people out there pushing it on people then this will happen. I believe a person who don't tell others about Jesus is just a bad as a person you causes someone to turn their back on the Lord because someone pushed it on them.

[Ebowed]

Tell me, why is murder illegal?

Because it hurts other people, and any functioning government has the obligation to respect and protect basic rights.

Nothing to do with the Bible.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

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Now, I'm no biblical scholar or anything, but doesn't the line, "Give to God that which is God's, and give to Caesar that which is Caesar's," imply that government and religion are two distinct and separate spheres?

Yeah - separate when it comes to "optional" things like that quote - giving and tithing - not murder or other things.
[/quote]

I believe Jesus's line I quoted was directly referring to taxation. Tell me: since when have taxes been "optional"?

You must be logged in to read this quote.

Come on now. The fact that murder is bad is in no way a Christian thing. Murder is against the law because the institution of government, as stated in the declaration of independance and such, is meant to preserve the right of life.

If the illegality of murder is due to strictly Christian influences, as you argue, then why was murder against the law in the soviet union?
[/quote]

My whole poin was that taxes are always mandatory and tithing is optional - I don't know what you're trying to say if you're saying otherwise.

My point about murder is, where did it stem from as being wrong?  It stemmed Biblically from Cain and Abel - so all of humanity thinks it's wrong (other than VERY rare sectors) - so even though the USSR was atheistic, it stemmed from Christianity, because Chrsitianity stemmed from Judaism in the Old Testament.

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

Well from one Christian to another, we can't push our views on others. Did Jesus push his views on others? No, he simply told them want he believe. God created humans to have the will to choose the paths in their life, whether it is right or wrong. Having the Government controling what morals to push on the people is a very bad idea, because you can get someone in power like Hitler, then what? The fact is we have free will to do what we want when we want.

There's a difference b/t morals and clear commands that God wants to government to legislate.

The fact is, you want to push our views on others and that is wrong. You tell them and show them what the Bible says, plant the seed, God will do the rest. We do not go around pushing veiws on non christain, because 99% of the times that pushes them away from God.

There are certain boundaries where the government is supposed to push Biblicism on the people.

And for the story about pushing Christianity - that does anger me - we shouldn't convert you.  I'm talking about basic rights - life, no gay marriage, but if you want to be gay in your house - I'm fine w/ it.  Kinky sex - fine w/ it.  Getting drunk in your house - fine w/ it (as long as you don't harm others).  It's only when it applies to others or it's protecting you should the gov't get involved.  We shouldn't have Christianity as a national religion either.

Tell me, why is murder illegal?

Because it hurts other people, and any functioning government has the obligation to respect and protect basic rights.

Nothing to do with the Bible.

And where do these "basic rights" stem from?

[Alcon]

My point about murder is, where did it stem from as being wrong?  It stemmed Biblically from Cain and Abel - so all of humanity thinks it's wrong (other than VERY rare sectors) - so even though the USSR was atheistic, it stemmed from Christianity, because Chrsitianity stemmed from Judaism in the Old Testament.

The idea of killing innocents being wrong is not a Christian invention.  And, by your logic, if it transfers from Judaism to Christianity, it also stems from secular humanism.  And doesn't that mean we should be enforcing all of the moral centers of Judaism?  Are you keeping kosher?

Not that it matters.  Christianity did not invent anything in the murder realm.  Murder was considered wrong before Christianity; it's still wrong.  Human sacrifice may have not been wrong in some areas, but its elimination has no more to do with Christianity than other religions.

And for the story about pushing Christianity - that does anger me - we shouldn't convert you.  I'm talking about basic rights - life, no gay marriage, but if you want to be gay in your house - I'm fine w/ it.  Kinky sex - fine w/ it.  Getting drunk in your house - fine w/ it (as long as you don't harm others).  It's only when it applies to others or it's protecting you should the gov't get involved.  We shouldn't have Christianity as a national religion either.

Wait, wait a moment here.  Homosexual sex in private is fine, but not gay marriage, even though the Bible only speaks out against homosexual sex?  It doesn't speak against homosexual marriage.

And where do these "basic rights" stem from?

Even in pre-Biblical times, killing was considered to be wrong.  Do you think people were just killing each other randomly, and then getting away with it?  What exactly did the Christians or Jews invent here that was new, and justifies enforcing their morality universally?

[Gabu]

My point about murder is, where did it stem from as being wrong?  It stemmed Biblically from Cain and Abel - so all of humanity thinks it's wrong (other than VERY rare sectors) - so even though the USSR was atheistic, it stemmed from Christianity, because Chrsitianity stemmed from Judaism in the Old Testament.

I'm fairly sure that people already weren't okay with murder before Christianity even existed.  Do you honestly think that people need God to tell them that it's a bad idea to go around killing everyone you see?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

My point about murder is, where did it stem from as being wrong?  It stemmed Biblically from Cain and Abel - so all of humanity thinks it's wrong (other than VERY rare sectors) - so even though the USSR was atheistic, it stemmed from Christianity, because Chrsitianity stemmed from Judaism in the Old Testament.

The idea of killing innocents being wrong is not a Christian invention.  And, by your logic, if it transfers from Judaism to Christianity, it also stems from secular humanism.  And doesn't that mean we should be enforcing all of the moral centers of Judaism?  Are you keeping kosher?

Not that it matters.  Christianity did not invent anything in the murder realm.  Murder was considered wrong before Christianity; it's still wrong.  Human sacrifice may have not been wrong in some areas, but its elimination has no more to do with Christianity than other religions.

No - Judaism started w/ Adam and Eve - 1st humans, but now we'll get into an origins debate.

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Wait, wait a moment here.  Homosexual sex in private is fine, but not gay marriage, even though the Bible only speaks out against homosexual sex?  It doesn't speak against homosexual marriage.[/quote]

It's still wrong and a sin, but the gov't has no place in the private home - if it's in public, it's wrong.  But I wouldn't fight it if they made gay sex illegal.

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Even in pre-Biblical times, killing was considered to be wrong.  Do you think people were just killing each other randomly, and then getting away with it?  What exactly did the Christians or Jews invent here that was new, and justifies enforcing their morality universally?
[/quote]

No - nothing existed in pre-Biblical times.

My point about murder is, where did it stem from as being wrong?  It stemmed Biblically from Cain and Abel - so all of humanity thinks it's wrong (other than VERY rare sectors) - so even though the USSR was atheistic, it stemmed from Christianity, because Chrsitianity stemmed from Judaism in the Old Testament.

I'm fairly sure that people already weren't okay with murder before Christianity even existed.  Do you honestly think that people need God to tell them that it's a bad idea to go around killing everyone you see?

No - they weren't, but before written law, God operated using the conscience to convey right and wrong.

[Gabu]

No - they weren't, but before written law, God operated using the conscience to convey right and wrong.

Does that even have any Biblical origin behind it, or are you just making stuff up now?  I can't recall reading one single mention of the notion of conscience in the Bible.

[Alcon]

No - Judaism started w/ Adam and Eve - 1st humans, but now we'll get into an origins debate.

We might...if I had any idea what that had to do with the topic.

It's still wrong and a sin, but the gov't has no place in the private home - if it's in public, it's wrong.  But I wouldn't fight it if they made gay sex illegal.

Why does the government have right to enforce morality in marriage, but not in the private home?  Why is Biblical morality excluded from the home?

No - nothing existed in pre-Biblical times.

Sorry, I meant the time of Jesus.  C'mon, you know what I meant.

No - they weren't, but before written law, God operated using the conscience to convey right and wrong.

What is so horrible about thinking about morality logically?  You make it sound like it's a primitive form of thought.  You may disagree with it, but that's not the point.

And if your point was (seemingly), we have to enforce Biblical morality, because without it, murder would be considered moral.  You just conceded that, that isn't true.  So...what's up with that?

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

No - they weren't, but before written law, God operated using the conscience to convey right and wrong.

Does that even have any Biblical origin behind it, or are you just making stuff up now?  I can't recall reading one single mention of the notion of conscience in the Bible.

Not directly, but being a dispensationalist, I believe that it falls in the dispensation of Conscience - so is it "made up" yes - but it's a principle.  Applied principles - kinda like Calvinism and Arminianism.

It's still wrong and a sin, but the gov't has no place in the private home - if it's in public, it's wrong.  But I wouldn't fight it if they made gay sex illegal.

Why does the government have right to enforce morality in marriage, but not in the private home?  Why is Biblical morality excluded from the home?

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What is so horrible about thinking about morality logically?  You make it sound like it's a primitive form of thought.  You may disagree with it, but that's not the point.

And if your point was (seemingly), we have to enforce Biblical morality, because without it, murder would be considered moral.  You just conceded that, that isn't true.  So...what's up with that?

My point was that all morality stems from God, not necessarily the Law, but from the dispensation of innocence, to conscience, increased during law and human gov't, and now the church, ultimately to the Kingdom, when there will be no sin.

[Gabu]

No - they weren't, but before written law, God operated using the conscience to convey right and wrong.

Does that even have any Biblical origin behind it, or are you just making stuff up now?  I can't recall reading one single mention of the notion of conscience in the Bible.

Not directly, but being a dispensationalist, I believe that it falls in the dispensation of Conscience - so is it "made up" yes - but it's a principle.  Applied principles - kinda like Calvinism and Arminianism.

So, basically, your arguments work if you already believed the assumptions leading to them, but they don't if you didn't.

Congratulations; you've successfully built a tautology, but don't expect to actually convince anyone of anything.

Although I have to ask: if something has no Biblical origin, how exactly does one come to treat it as if it were equal to something within the Bible?

[Hash]

Because Christianity is the only right religion - and God commanded us to have some simple morals be applied to the government, so it's the government's job to push those morals on you.  Republicans believe those morals more often than Dems., so liberals get angry.

Let the angry comments begin...

I'll let you have your ... opinion on the others, but saying Christianity is the only right religion is a stupid comment. It's because of closed-up people like you that I'm agnostic now.

[Queen Mum Inks.LWC]

No - they weren't, but before written law, God operated using the conscience to convey right and wrong.

Does that even have any Biblical origin behind it, or are you just making stuff up now?  I can't recall reading one single mention of the notion of conscience in the Bible.

Not directly, but being a dispensationalist, I believe that it falls in the dispensation of Conscience - so is it "made up" yes - but it's a principle.  Applied principles - kinda like Calvinism and Arminianism.

So, basically, your arguments work if you already believed the assumptions leading to them, but they don't if you didn't.

Congratulations; you've successfully built a tautology, but don't expect to actually convince anyone of anything.

Although I have to ask: if something has no Biblical origin, how exactly does one come to treat it as if it were equal to something within the Bible?

That's my whole point - people believe different things, but only the Christians are the ones believing the right thing.

And this stuff is Biblical, it's just not quoted.  Just like people claim that Jesus wasn't God becuase he never said "I am God" - but he said other things that mean exactly the same thing.

[Alcon]

Because the gov't job is to control public social things, not private things.

So, then you support abolishing government control of marriage and letting people decide privately?  And support legalizing drugs?  You have a rather high social score there for that belief.

My point was that all morality stems from God, not necessarily the Law, but from the dispensation of innocence, to conscience, increased during law and human gov't, and now the church, ultimately to the Kingdom, when there will be no sin.

But murder being unethical is an idea that has been around since before the Bible was around.  Your claim was that the government needs to enforce Christianity because otherwise  there would be no sense of morality.  My point is, humanist ethics serve as morality just fine, and did before the Bible and Christianity were around.  That defeats your point -- there is no societal crisis when Christian morality is gone.

So, why again does the government NEED to enforce Christian morals when humanist ethics control the immediate danger to society?

[Alcon]

That's my whole point - people believe different things, but only the Christians are the ones believing the right thing.

You can believe that without believing that you should enforce your moral sense on everyone.  This nation is hypermajority Christian.  Clearly, not all of them feel as you do.

And this stuff is Biblical, it's just not quoted.  Just like people claim that Jesus wasn't God becuase he never said "I am God" - but he said other things that mean exactly the same thing.

Then quote the equivalent passages or just say you made it up...

I think we'd rather not get into a Bible war here, but I think Gabu was questioning whether the spirit of what you said is even in the Bible at all.

[Gabu]

That's my whole point - people believe different things, but only the Christians are the ones believing the right thing.

Okay, but what's the point of saying so?  Does it make you feel better about yourself, or do you honestly think other people will be convinced by your saying that you're right?

And this stuff is Biblical, it's just not quoted.  Just like people claim that Jesus wasn't God becuase he never said "I am God" - but he said other things that mean exactly the same thing.

Where is it from, then?