UCLA medical school admissions overtaken by DEI?

[OSR stands with Israel]

The left really shouldn't take a knee-jerk position defending every instance of DEI...it's entirely possible to both refute the cartoonish and propaganda-ish attacks on it by the right while also admitting when it goes too far and needs to be reigned in. This story if accurate (and that's a big "if" considering the source) is such an example.

For example, remember when Evanston, Illinois' school board tried to pass segregated high school classes? There was a massive backlash, and they backed down. But that backlash came initially almost exclusively from right-wing rabblerousers until some mainstream media sources picked it up. Now granted I'm not saying that liberals notably defended the school board in that case, mostly they were just silent on it....but that's still something that should've been left solely to such rightist trolls to highlight. The excesses of the San Francisco Board of Education* members that resulted in their recall are an example where they got a lot of attacks from the left as well, but that's probably largely because it's impossible to pretend that a successful recall in San Francisco was entirely right-wing backed.

*And yes, that was DEI excess-related, while the core issue was that they were not focusing on reopening schools after Covid and parents were angry about that, this was underscored by how they were dallying around with silly DEI things like renaming every single school named after a white male instead of focusing on reopening.

Even if this story has any truth to it, it is extremely unlikely it is due to the school attempting to increase the presence of minority candidates.

That's what this "DEI" boogeyman crap all boils down to. Disproportionate lack of black and low-income representation is fine, and any attempts to fix that are a threat to wealthy whites and Asians because the group that is overrepresented will naturally lose some of that if the group that is underrepresented gets some  attention. The implication is that naturally African Americans and other groups can't be doctors or any other skill position. It is rooted in racism and classism.
Hence why the far right media was trying to blame the Boeing equipment failures on DEI. It's the new go to boogeyman.

Whites and especially Asians aren’t overrepresented

https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1674426520100814848?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%...

Harvard is 21% Asian at the undergraduate level (not even including international students, many of whom are from wealthy families in China and India.) How the f**k is that underrepresentation?

Cause our definitions of under representation is different. Your definition is based on how are the demographics of the university compared to the nation or state as a whole while mine is whether the average GPA/standardized test score of a particular group is higher or lower than the overall class of admissions and by how much .

[Ancestral Republican]

The left really shouldn't take a knee-jerk position defending every instance of DEI...it's entirely possible to both refute the cartoonish and propaganda-ish attacks on it by the right while also admitting when it goes too far and needs to be reigned in. This story if accurate (and that's a big "if" considering the source) is such an example.

For example, remember when Evanston, Illinois' school board tried to pass segregated high school classes? There was a massive backlash, and they backed down. But that backlash came initially almost exclusively from right-wing rabblerousers until some mainstream media sources picked it up. Now granted I'm not saying that liberals notably defended the school board in that case, mostly they were just silent on it....but that's still something that should've been left solely to such rightist trolls to highlight. The excesses of the San Francisco Board of Education* members that resulted in their recall are an example where they got a lot of attacks from the left as well, but that's probably largely because it's impossible to pretend that a successful recall in San Francisco was entirely right-wing backed.

*And yes, that was DEI excess-related, while the core issue was that they were not focusing on reopening schools after Covid and parents were angry about that, this was underscored by how they were dallying around with silly DEI things like renaming every single school named after a white male instead of focusing on reopening.

Even if this story has any truth to it, it is extremely unlikely it is due to the school attempting to increase the presence of minority candidates.

That's what this "DEI" boogeyman crap all boils down to. Disproportionate lack of black and low-income representation is fine, and any attempts to fix that are a threat to wealthy whites and Asians because the group that is overrepresented will naturally lose some of that if the group that is underrepresented gets some  attention. The implication is that naturally African Americans and other groups can't be doctors or any other skill position. It is rooted in racism and classism.
Hence why the far right media was trying to blame the Boeing equipment failures on DEI. It's the new go to boogeyman.

Whites and especially Asians aren’t overrepresented

https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1674426520100814848?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%...

The left really shouldn't take a knee-jerk position defending every instance of DEI...it's entirely possible to both refute the cartoonish and propaganda-ish attacks on it by the right while also admitting when it goes too far and needs to be reigned in. This story if accurate (and that's a big "if" considering the source) is such an example.

For example, remember when Evanston, Illinois' school board tried to pass segregated high school classes? There was a massive backlash, and they backed down. But that backlash came initially almost exclusively from right-wing rabblerousers until some mainstream media sources picked it up. Now granted I'm not saying that liberals notably defended the school board in that case, mostly they were just silent on it....but that's still something that should've been left solely to such rightist trolls to highlight. The excesses of the San Francisco Board of Education* members that resulted in their recall are an example where they got a lot of attacks from the left as well, but that's probably largely because it's impossible to pretend that a successful recall in San Francisco was entirely right-wing backed.

*And yes, that was DEI excess-related, while the core issue was that they were not focusing on reopening schools after Covid and parents were angry about that, this was underscored by how they were dallying around with silly DEI things like renaming every single school named after a white male instead of focusing on reopening.

Even if this story has any truth to it, it is extremely unlikely it is due to the school attempting to increase the presence of minority candidates.

That's what this "DEI" boogeyman crap all boils down to. Disproportionate lack of black and low-income representation is fine, and any attempts to fix that are a threat to wealthy whites and Asians because the group that is overrepresented will naturally lose some of that if the group that is underrepresented gets some  attention. The implication is that naturally African Americans and other groups can't be doctors or any other skill position. It is rooted in racism and classism.
Hence why the far right media was trying to blame the Boeing equipment failures on DEI. It's the new go to boogeyman.

The irony is that the type of African Americans who enter Harvard, might not be even low income.

https://time.com/6295329/harvard-diversity-problem-class-essay/


"A 2017 research study by The Equality of Opportunity Project (now Opportunity Insights) found that Harvard’s student body has about as many students from the top 1% by income as the bottom 60%. This information, coupled with Harvard’s racial diversity, gives sense to education policy expert Richard Kahlenberg’s 2018 finding that 71% of Black, Hispanic, and Native American students at Harvard came from the top socioeconomic fifth of their respective racial groups nationally. Kahlenberg noted that this percentage gets even higher for Asian and white students."



Why on earth are people talking about affirmative action, when we have to tackle the root issues, that lead to such a wacked up system in the first place ?

Just a reminder folks that the UC System in California; with no affirmative action at all banned since the 1990s,  UC Davis for example has around 40 percent non affluent students. Hmm interesting.


Or why don't we try to promote public regional universities to help boost income and class mobility ? Why are we talking about bandaid solutions that don't solve the real issues ?

The problem that people can't afford college in America is unrelated to diversity issues. Your stats show more outreach and intervention in lower-income schools is required, not less - as the person who made this thread would advocate for.

[Ancestral Republican]

The left really shouldn't take a knee-jerk position defending every instance of DEI...it's entirely possible to both refute the cartoonish and propaganda-ish attacks on it by the right while also admitting when it goes too far and needs to be reigned in. This story if accurate (and that's a big "if" considering the source) is such an example.

For example, remember when Evanston, Illinois' school board tried to pass segregated high school classes? There was a massive backlash, and they backed down. But that backlash came initially almost exclusively from right-wing rabblerousers until some mainstream media sources picked it up. Now granted I'm not saying that liberals notably defended the school board in that case, mostly they were just silent on it....but that's still something that should've been left solely to such rightist trolls to highlight. The excesses of the San Francisco Board of Education* members that resulted in their recall are an example where they got a lot of attacks from the left as well, but that's probably largely because it's impossible to pretend that a successful recall in San Francisco was entirely right-wing backed.

*And yes, that was DEI excess-related, while the core issue was that they were not focusing on reopening schools after Covid and parents were angry about that, this was underscored by how they were dallying around with silly DEI things like renaming every single school named after a white male instead of focusing on reopening.

Even if this story has any truth to it, it is extremely unlikely it is due to the school attempting to increase the presence of minority candidates.

That's what this "DEI" boogeyman crap all boils down to. Disproportionate lack of black and low-income representation is fine, and any attempts to fix that are a threat to wealthy whites and Asians because the group that is overrepresented will naturally lose some of that if the group that is underrepresented gets some  attention. The implication is that naturally African Americans and other groups can't be doctors or any other skill position. It is rooted in racism and classism.
Hence why the far right media was trying to blame the Boeing equipment failures on DEI. It's the new go to boogeyman.

Whites and especially Asians aren’t overrepresented

https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1674426520100814848?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%...

Harvard is 21% Asian at the undergraduate level (not even including international students, many of whom are from wealthy families in China and India.) How the f**k is that underrepresentation?

Cause our definitions of under representation is different. Your definition is based on how are the demographics of the university compared to the nation or state as a whole while mine is whether the average GPA/standardized test score of a particular group is higher or lower than the overall class of admissions and by how much .

Well the latter definition is patent nonsense at least as applicable to this issue (increasing access to marginalized groups) so I'm not sure why you would be rolling with it....

[jojoju1998]

The left really shouldn't take a knee-jerk position defending every instance of DEI...it's entirely possible to both refute the cartoonish and propaganda-ish attacks on it by the right while also admitting when it goes too far and needs to be reigned in. This story if accurate (and that's a big "if" considering the source) is such an example.

For example, remember when Evanston, Illinois' school board tried to pass segregated high school classes? There was a massive backlash, and they backed down. But that backlash came initially almost exclusively from right-wing rabblerousers until some mainstream media sources picked it up. Now granted I'm not saying that liberals notably defended the school board in that case, mostly they were just silent on it....but that's still something that should've been left solely to such rightist trolls to highlight. The excesses of the San Francisco Board of Education* members that resulted in their recall are an example where they got a lot of attacks from the left as well, but that's probably largely because it's impossible to pretend that a successful recall in San Francisco was entirely right-wing backed.

*And yes, that was DEI excess-related, while the core issue was that they were not focusing on reopening schools after Covid and parents were angry about that, this was underscored by how they were dallying around with silly DEI things like renaming every single school named after a white male instead of focusing on reopening.

Even if this story has any truth to it, it is extremely unlikely it is due to the school attempting to increase the presence of minority candidates.

That's what this "DEI" boogeyman crap all boils down to. Disproportionate lack of black and low-income representation is fine, and any attempts to fix that are a threat to wealthy whites and Asians because the group that is overrepresented will naturally lose some of that if the group that is underrepresented gets some  attention. The implication is that naturally African Americans and other groups can't be doctors or any other skill position. It is rooted in racism and classism.
Hence why the far right media was trying to blame the Boeing equipment failures on DEI. It's the new go to boogeyman.

Whites and especially Asians aren’t overrepresented

https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1674426520100814848?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%...

The left really shouldn't take a knee-jerk position defending every instance of DEI...it's entirely possible to both refute the cartoonish and propaganda-ish attacks on it by the right while also admitting when it goes too far and needs to be reigned in. This story if accurate (and that's a big "if" considering the source) is such an example.

For example, remember when Evanston, Illinois' school board tried to pass segregated high school classes? There was a massive backlash, and they backed down. But that backlash came initially almost exclusively from right-wing rabblerousers until some mainstream media sources picked it up. Now granted I'm not saying that liberals notably defended the school board in that case, mostly they were just silent on it....but that's still something that should've been left solely to such rightist trolls to highlight. The excesses of the San Francisco Board of Education* members that resulted in their recall are an example where they got a lot of attacks from the left as well, but that's probably largely because it's impossible to pretend that a successful recall in San Francisco was entirely right-wing backed.

*And yes, that was DEI excess-related, while the core issue was that they were not focusing on reopening schools after Covid and parents were angry about that, this was underscored by how they were dallying around with silly DEI things like renaming every single school named after a white male instead of focusing on reopening.

Even if this story has any truth to it, it is extremely unlikely it is due to the school attempting to increase the presence of minority candidates.

That's what this "DEI" boogeyman crap all boils down to. Disproportionate lack of black and low-income representation is fine, and any attempts to fix that are a threat to wealthy whites and Asians because the group that is overrepresented will naturally lose some of that if the group that is underrepresented gets some  attention. The implication is that naturally African Americans and other groups can't be doctors or any other skill position. It is rooted in racism and classism.
Hence why the far right media was trying to blame the Boeing equipment failures on DEI. It's the new go to boogeyman.

The irony is that the type of African Americans who enter Harvard, might not be even low income.

https://time.com/6295329/harvard-diversity-problem-class-essay/


"A 2017 research study by The Equality of Opportunity Project (now Opportunity Insights) found that Harvard’s student body has about as many students from the top 1% by income as the bottom 60%. This information, coupled with Harvard’s racial diversity, gives sense to education policy expert Richard Kahlenberg’s 2018 finding that 71% of Black, Hispanic, and Native American students at Harvard came from the top socioeconomic fifth of their respective racial groups nationally. Kahlenberg noted that this percentage gets even higher for Asian and white students."



Why on earth are people talking about affirmative action, when we have to tackle the root issues, that lead to such a wacked up system in the first place ?

Just a reminder folks that the UC System in California; with no affirmative action at all banned since the 1990s,  UC Davis for example has around 40 percent non affluent students. Hmm interesting.


Or why don't we try to promote public regional universities to help boost income and class mobility ? Why are we talking about bandaid solutions that don't solve the real issues ?

The problem that people can't afford college in America is unrelated to diversity issues. Your stats show more outreach and intervention in lower-income schools is required, not less - as the person who made this thread would advocate for.

But my point is that diversity IS inherently tied to affordability. And that's not even the rest of it. Dont even get me started about Math Education in our public schools, especially....Common Core Math. Ugh.

I mean we rank among the lowest in the role relative to other developed countries when it comes to Math. So even these kids get into college, they will have to retake math classes. We have to think large scale. The higher education System, the ENTIRE education System needs to be rebooted.

[Ancestral Republican]

The left really shouldn't take a knee-jerk position defending every instance of DEI...it's entirely possible to both refute the cartoonish and propaganda-ish attacks on it by the right while also admitting when it goes too far and needs to be reigned in. This story if accurate (and that's a big "if" considering the source) is such an example.

For example, remember when Evanston, Illinois' school board tried to pass segregated high school classes? There was a massive backlash, and they backed down. But that backlash came initially almost exclusively from right-wing rabblerousers until some mainstream media sources picked it up. Now granted I'm not saying that liberals notably defended the school board in that case, mostly they were just silent on it....but that's still something that should've been left solely to such rightist trolls to highlight. The excesses of the San Francisco Board of Education* members that resulted in their recall are an example where they got a lot of attacks from the left as well, but that's probably largely because it's impossible to pretend that a successful recall in San Francisco was entirely right-wing backed.

*And yes, that was DEI excess-related, while the core issue was that they were not focusing on reopening schools after Covid and parents were angry about that, this was underscored by how they were dallying around with silly DEI things like renaming every single school named after a white male instead of focusing on reopening.

Even if this story has any truth to it, it is extremely unlikely it is due to the school attempting to increase the presence of minority candidates.

That's what this "DEI" boogeyman crap all boils down to. Disproportionate lack of black and low-income representation is fine, and any attempts to fix that are a threat to wealthy whites and Asians because the group that is overrepresented will naturally lose some of that if the group that is underrepresented gets some  attention. The implication is that naturally African Americans and other groups can't be doctors or any other skill position. It is rooted in racism and classism.
Hence why the far right media was trying to blame the Boeing equipment failures on DEI. It's the new go to boogeyman.

Whites and especially Asians aren’t overrepresented

https://twitter.com/greg_price11/status/1674426520100814848?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%...

The left really shouldn't take a knee-jerk position defending every instance of DEI...it's entirely possible to both refute the cartoonish and propaganda-ish attacks on it by the right while also admitting when it goes too far and needs to be reigned in. This story if accurate (and that's a big "if" considering the source) is such an example.

For example, remember when Evanston, Illinois' school board tried to pass segregated high school classes? There was a massive backlash, and they backed down. But that backlash came initially almost exclusively from right-wing rabblerousers until some mainstream media sources picked it up. Now granted I'm not saying that liberals notably defended the school board in that case, mostly they were just silent on it....but that's still something that should've been left solely to such rightist trolls to highlight. The excesses of the San Francisco Board of Education* members that resulted in their recall are an example where they got a lot of attacks from the left as well, but that's probably largely because it's impossible to pretend that a successful recall in San Francisco was entirely right-wing backed.

*And yes, that was DEI excess-related, while the core issue was that they were not focusing on reopening schools after Covid and parents were angry about that, this was underscored by how they were dallying around with silly DEI things like renaming every single school named after a white male instead of focusing on reopening.

Even if this story has any truth to it, it is extremely unlikely it is due to the school attempting to increase the presence of minority candidates.

That's what this "DEI" boogeyman crap all boils down to. Disproportionate lack of black and low-income representation is fine, and any attempts to fix that are a threat to wealthy whites and Asians because the group that is overrepresented will naturally lose some of that if the group that is underrepresented gets some  attention. The implication is that naturally African Americans and other groups can't be doctors or any other skill position. It is rooted in racism and classism.
Hence why the far right media was trying to blame the Boeing equipment failures on DEI. It's the new go to boogeyman.

The irony is that the type of African Americans who enter Harvard, might not be even low income.

https://time.com/6295329/harvard-diversity-problem-class-essay/


"A 2017 research study by The Equality of Opportunity Project (now Opportunity Insights) found that Harvard’s student body has about as many students from the top 1% by income as the bottom 60%. This information, coupled with Harvard’s racial diversity, gives sense to education policy expert Richard Kahlenberg’s 2018 finding that 71% of Black, Hispanic, and Native American students at Harvard came from the top socioeconomic fifth of their respective racial groups nationally. Kahlenberg noted that this percentage gets even higher for Asian and white students."



Why on earth are people talking about affirmative action, when we have to tackle the root issues, that lead to such a wacked up system in the first place ?

Just a reminder folks that the UC System in California; with no affirmative action at all banned since the 1990s,  UC Davis for example has around 40 percent non affluent students. Hmm interesting.


Or why don't we try to promote public regional universities to help boost income and class mobility ? Why are we talking about bandaid solutions that don't solve the real issues ?

The problem that people can't afford college in America is unrelated to diversity issues. Your stats show more outreach and intervention in lower-income schools is required, not less - as the person who made this thread would advocate for.

But my point is that diversity IS inherently tied to affordability. And that's not even the rest of it. Dont even get me started about Math Education in our public schools, especially....Common Core Math. Ugh.

I mean we rank among the lowest in the role relative to other developed countries when it comes to Math. So even these kids get into college, they will have to retake math classes. We have to think large scale. The higher education System, the ENTIRE education System needs to be rebooted.

Hey, I'm in complete agreement with you. I think you can advocate for both diversity initiatives and overhauling public education (in fact I'm positive the vast majority of people targeted with right wing hack journalism like the Free Beacon, are doing so)

[dead0man]

it kind of sucks for us that the only two groups with any ability to actually change how public schools teach are the most ignorant of conservatives or teacher's unions.  Parents, at least the loud ones, are a horrible group of people, but I'd trust them more than these two groups who only want to make changes that benefit them, the status of the kids is secondary at best.

[Dan the Roman]

There are serious cultural issues in America with African American performance. We know they exist, and they are not racial. How?

The top performing immigrant group in America is not Asian but Nigerian.

Individuals of African origin from anywhere else in the world perform at or above the level of Asian immigrants and above that of American-born Asians.

African Americans chronically underperform. They underperform corrected for income. They underperform corrected for parental education. Statistically an African American with parents who went to Harvard will perform worse on average than white or Asian peers, who in turn often perform worse than an African immigrant from more modest backgrounds.

There almost certainly is a cultural issue in America. Rather than solve it, we have seen the fat acceptance movement approach applied where any standards, measurements or systems that display inequality are declared racist. Much like scales and cholesterol were declared racist measures now test scores, and school performance is.

The thing is test scores are picking up something. The African American students with poor SAT scores are performing poorly in class, and poorly in the work-force. That is a problem and it needs to be fixed. Not responded to by removing all performance metrics for doctors of all people.

[Ancestral Republican]

There are serious cultural issues in America with African American performance. We know they exist, and they are not racial. How?

The top performing immigrant group in America is not Asian but Nigerian.

Individuals of African origin from anywhere else in the world perform at or above the level of Asian immigrants and above that of American-born Asians.

African Americans chronically underperform. They underperform corrected for income. They underperform corrected for parental education. Statistically an African American with parents who went to Harvard will perform worse on average than white or Asian peers, who in turn often perform worse than an African immigrant from more modest backgrounds.

There almost certainly is a cultural issue in America. Rather than solve it, we have seen the fat acceptance movement approach applied where any standards, measurements or systems that display inequality are declared racist. Much like scales and cholesterol were declared racist measures now test scores, and school performance is.

The thing is test scores are picking up something. The African American students with poor SAT scores are performing poorly in class, and poorly in the work-force. That is a problem and it needs to be fixed. Not responded to by removing all performance metrics for doctors of all people.

It's good when someone doesn't bother to filter out their thoughts on black people so we don't have to dance around it.

[jojoju1998]

There are serious cultural issues in America with African American performance. We know they exist, and they are not racial. How?

The top performing immigrant group in America is not Asian but Nigerian.

Individuals of African origin from anywhere else in the world perform at or above the level of Asian immigrants and above that of American-born Asians.

African Americans chronically underperform. They underperform corrected for income. They underperform corrected for parental education. Statistically an African American with parents who went to Harvard will perform worse on average than white or Asian peers, who in turn often perform worse than an African immigrant from more modest backgrounds.

There almost certainly is a cultural issue in America. Rather than solve it, we have seen the fat acceptance movement approach applied where any standards, measurements or systems that display inequality are declared racist. Much like scales and cholesterol were declared racist measures now test scores, and school performance is.

The thing is test scores are picking up something. The African American students with poor SAT scores are performing poorly in class, and poorly in the work-force. That is a problem and it needs to be fixed. Not responded to by removing all performance metrics for doctors of all people.

1. Nigerian migrants to the US are often wealthier, and have a higher expectation of education. It's the same thing for many Asian Immigrant families as well, ( not all however, the laotian community shows this.)



2. There seems to be a anti intellectualism in American Life and the African American community shows this. Not calling every Black American " dumb ", not my point at all. But this article I tound 16 years ago, shows what I'm talking about.

https://www.theroot.com/the-american-embrace-of-ignorance-and-why-blacks-need-1790899740

"In that context, the second book, John McWhorter's Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America, raises even more alarm today than when it was published in 2000. While Jacoby's story of America's increasing unreason should be unsettling to most Americans, it should be profoundly distressing to African-Americans. The ignorant, anti-intellectual America Jacoby describes is the same America in which African-American students are falling farther and farther behind every year. This growing achievement gap is fueled by a specifically African-American variety of anti-intellectualism that puts our children at an even greater distance from Enlightenment values than their white and Asian peers."

Many Black Americans, not all but many see being " Smart " as White, Elitist, and countercultural to their black values. Whatever might that be. I don't know. I'm Asian. But,



Yes, Yes, and Yes, African American life has no shortage of intellectual leaders such as MLK, and others, especially in the religious area ( Cardinal Wilton Gregory for example ), but, most Americans, black and white see that as an exception to the African American ethos or stereotype.


" But no one who has spent any significant amount of time with African-American teenagers over the past 20 years can fail to have observed that far too many of our children see the behaviors that lead to success in school as fundamentally foreign to their conception of authentic blackness."

https://www.theroot.com/the-american-embrace-of-ignorance-and-why-blacks-need-1790899740

The cultural output is changing however, albeit slowly. Obama's election in 2008 showed that there is a possibility for Black Americans to embrace their " intellectual " side, but even that is in question, because Obama didn't neccsarily grow up in the African American experience.

[Kamala's side hoe]

The left really shouldn't take a knee-jerk position defending every instance of DEI...it's entirely possible to both refute the cartoonish and propaganda-ish attacks on it by the right while also admitting when it goes too far and needs to be reigned in. This story if accurate (and that's a big "if" considering the source) is such an example.

For example, remember when Evanston, Illinois' school board tried to pass segregated high school classes? There was a massive backlash, and they backed down. But that backlash came initially almost exclusively from right-wing rabblerousers until some mainstream media sources picked it up. Now granted I'm not saying that liberals notably defended the school board in that case, mostly they were just silent on it....but that's still something that should've been left solely to such rightist trolls to highlight. The excesses of the San Francisco Board of Education* members that resulted in their recall are an example where they got a lot of attacks from the left as well, but that's probably largely because it's impossible to pretend that a successful recall in San Francisco was entirely right-wing backed.

*And yes, that was DEI excess-related, while the core issue was that they were not focusing on reopening schools after Covid and parents were angry about that, this was underscored by how they were dallying around with silly DEI things like renaming every single school named after a white male instead of focusing on reopening.

Even if this story has any truth to it, it is extremely unlikely it is due to the school attempting to increase the presence of minority candidates.

That's what this "DEI" boogeyman crap all boils down to. Disproportionate lack of black and low-income representation is fine, and any attempts to fix that are a threat to wealthy whites and Asians because the group that is overrepresented will naturally lose some of that if the group that is underrepresented gets some  attention. The implication is that naturally African Americans and other groups can't be doctors or any other skill position. It is rooted in racism and classism.
Hence why the far right media was trying to blame the Boeing equipment failures on DEI. It's the new go to boogeyman.

Yeah if that many med students are bombing these skills tests, it isn’t due to“underrepresented minorities”. Also worth pointing out that black students in med schools are disproportionately from immigrant backgrounds (much like their Latino and Asian counterparts), which raises entirely different questions about DEI in graduate programs admissions than the standard right-wing talking points.

[jojoju1998]

The left really shouldn't take a knee-jerk position defending every instance of DEI...it's entirely possible to both refute the cartoonish and propaganda-ish attacks on it by the right while also admitting when it goes too far and needs to be reigned in. This story if accurate (and that's a big "if" considering the source) is such an example.

For example, remember when Evanston, Illinois' school board tried to pass segregated high school classes? There was a massive backlash, and they backed down. But that backlash came initially almost exclusively from right-wing rabblerousers until some mainstream media sources picked it up. Now granted I'm not saying that liberals notably defended the school board in that case, mostly they were just silent on it....but that's still something that should've been left solely to such rightist trolls to highlight. The excesses of the San Francisco Board of Education* members that resulted in their recall are an example where they got a lot of attacks from the left as well, but that's probably largely because it's impossible to pretend that a successful recall in San Francisco was entirely right-wing backed.

*And yes, that was DEI excess-related, while the core issue was that they were not focusing on reopening schools after Covid and parents were angry about that, this was underscored by how they were dallying around with silly DEI things like renaming every single school named after a white male instead of focusing on reopening.

Even if this story has any truth to it, it is extremely unlikely it is due to the school attempting to increase the presence of minority candidates.

That's what this "DEI" boogeyman crap all boils down to. Disproportionate lack of black and low-income representation is fine, and any attempts to fix that are a threat to wealthy whites and Asians because the group that is overrepresented will naturally lose some of that if the group that is underrepresented gets some  attention. The implication is that naturally African Americans and other groups can't be doctors or any other skill position. It is rooted in racism and classism.
Hence why the far right media was trying to blame the Boeing equipment failures on DEI. It's the new go to boogeyman.

Yeah if that many med students are bombing these skills tests, it isn’t due to“underrepresented minorities”. Also worth pointing out that black students in med schools are disproportionately from immigrant backgrounds (much like their Latino and Asian counterparts), which raises entirely different questions about DEI in graduate programs admissions than the standard right-wing talking points.

Graduate Programs in the US see international students as cash cows.  Acccross the board. https://www.wsj.com/articles/financially-hobbled-for-life-the-elite-masters-degrees-that-dont-pay-off-11625752773 And US Students born in the US, get hobbled.

[AtorBoltox]

While obviously some sources are more credible than others, refusing to even consider a piece of information because it comes from the ‘wrong side’ is extremely obnoxious and reflective of severe deficiencies in critical thinking

[lfromnj]

More attacking by name and distracting from the topic. Last time you tried the same with John D Sailer and it turns out he was earlier than the NYT even if his source was iffy. Nice try. Sibarium is a good reporter who got a dean from Harvard take down.

John Sailer is an idiot.

And I'm guessing "dean from Harvard take down" was a Rufo/Alckman tier hatchet job from the far right.

If this is the kind of source you find reputable, I will be sure to treat your future thread postings with the appropriate level of credulity.

It absolutely was a targeted goal of the right yet the information remained true enough that Harvard still had to demote Claudine Gay. They don't deny that their goals was to get Claudine Gay fired but they did it by reporting the truth.

[Mopsus]

John Sailer isn't a "reporter". He's a right wing lobbyist and grifter whose singular purpose in life is punishing minorities for his inability to obtain respectable employment.

I was under the impression that his singular purpose was to own libtards on twitter. Which probably doesn’t pay very well, but is incredibly amusing.

[lfromnj]

Anyway scouring the internet this is what I believe is a bit closer to the truth.

A. DEI does exist and has been used to push the student body more diverse. These students although still smarter than the majority of Americans and probably capable are in large probability still less capable to a certain degree. They are also much more underprepared than the non AA admits.  Even if you support this Affirmative Action its blatantly illegal by California law and was twice affirmed by the voters although it does seem UCLA is smart enough to use proxies.

B. It seems UCLA has changed the curriculum as described in the article in such a way that it is much harder to help underprepared students catch up. If the described failure rates are true it probably wouldn't been as high without the curriculum changes.

https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/ucla-medical-school-in-crisis.1494584/

Here's an "anonymous" post where the OP has nothing directly mentioning the dean but it seems the preclinical years were cut down to one year.

Even more concerning is their performance on the shelf exams during the clinical year. After every rotation (ie peds, surgery, IM) the students take a national exam that tests the material from the rotation. To pass this exam you need to score in 5% of all students in the county who take this exam. It is a fairly low bar that one would think everyone could pass. I was shocked to see the data recently from the medical school, close to 50% of UCLA students have failed one of these exams. In addition 24% of the current 3rd year UCLA students have failed one of the shelf exams more than three times. For these 24% of students this will show up in their deans letter that is part of their application for residency programs. This one issue will prevent these students from matching into a specialty that is even remotely competitive or even in a less competitive specialty at a good program.

It does seem there is a possibility this a fake post as well from someone trying to trim the waitlist.

[Dan the Roman]

There are serious cultural issues in America with African American performance. We know they exist, and they are not racial. How?

The top performing immigrant group in America is not Asian but Nigerian.

Individuals of African origin from anywhere else in the world perform at or above the level of Asian immigrants and above that of American-born Asians.

African Americans chronically underperform. They underperform corrected for income. They underperform corrected for parental education. Statistically an African American with parents who went to Harvard will perform worse on average than white or Asian peers, who in turn often perform worse than an African immigrant from more modest backgrounds.

There almost certainly is a cultural issue in America. Rather than solve it, we have seen the fat acceptance movement approach applied where any standards, measurements or systems that display inequality are declared racist. Much like scales and cholesterol were declared racist measures now test scores, and school performance is.

The thing is test scores are picking up something. The African American students with poor SAT scores are performing poorly in class, and poorly in the work-force. That is a problem and it needs to be fixed. Not responded to by removing all performance metrics for doctors of all people.

1. Nigerian migrants to the US are often wealthier, and have a higher expectation of education. It's the same thing for many Asian Immigrant families as well, ( not all however, the laotian community shows this.)



2. There seems to be a anti intellectualism in American Life and the African American community shows this. Not calling every Black American " dumb ", not my point at all. But this article I tound 16 years ago, shows what I'm talking about.

https://www.theroot.com/the-american-embrace-of-ignorance-and-why-blacks-need-1790899740

"In that context, the second book, John McWhorter's Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America, raises even more alarm today than when it was published in 2000. While Jacoby's story of America's increasing unreason should be unsettling to most Americans, it should be profoundly distressing to African-Americans. The ignorant, anti-intellectual America Jacoby describes is the same America in which African-American students are falling farther and farther behind every year. This growing achievement gap is fueled by a specifically African-American variety of anti-intellectualism that puts our children at an even greater distance from Enlightenment values than their white and Asian peers."

Many Black Americans, not all but many see being " Smart " as White, Elitist, and countercultural to their black values. Whatever might that be. I don't know. I'm Asian. But,



Yes, Yes, and Yes, African American life has no shortage of intellectual leaders such as MLK, and others, especially in the religious area ( Cardinal Wilton Gregory for example ), but, most Americans, black and white see that as an exception to the African American ethos or stereotype.


" But no one who has spent any significant amount of time with African-American teenagers over the past 20 years can fail to have observed that far too many of our children see the behaviors that lead to success in school as fundamentally foreign to their conception of authentic blackness."

https://www.theroot.com/the-american-embrace-of-ignorance-and-why-blacks-need-1790899740

The cultural output is changing however, albeit slowly. Obama's election in 2008 showed that there is a possibility for Black Americans to embrace their " intellectual " side, but even that is in question, because Obama didn't neccsarily grow up in the African American experience.

It was improving dramatically between around 1990 and 2014. Not least because of Affirmative Action, as it was then understood. Namely as a tool for diversifying elite institutions.  The goal was to recruit LGBT individuals, African Americans, and others into fraternities, banks, rowing etc in a form in which those institutions continued in their role but now took in the expanded elite.

Around 2014 the goal shifted. DEI as we understand it isn't about URMs. It is about the white elite. The goal is not to create a black elite or an LGBT elite. It is to allow the existing elite to exist in a "diverse" environment. Which means diversity recruits don't exist to help those groups by recruiting the best of the best, but to provide the existing elite "exposure". And quite frankly a black fraternity kid who rowed and wants to go to Goldman dosent provide that.

A lot of the backlash is to campuses "looking like this" and that's east to ascribe to racism. And some of it is. But it is also true that DEI has become a cover to recruiting on the basis of stereotypes. Which when it comes to African American applicants often means selecting against academically gifted students and actively looking for those with familial or other struggles.

Now it is a good thing for universities to diversify the family background if applicant's. But anyone who has worked with the admissions process the last five years can tell you that's not what they are doing. Activists increasingly claim ownership on hiring/admissions committees over all URM candidates and then actively select in such a way there are no spots for those who don't fit the stereotype. At which point you have near 1:1 associations.

The issue is not Asian and white applicant's losing spots.

It is that Barack Obama would likely not get into Harvard in 2024, and almost certainly would not if his parents were still together. At least based on what they did this year.  He also would not have gotten into Yale. He probably would have made Princeton or Stanford, but Harvard and Yale generally do not accept African American candidates who fit his profile unless they are the son of major donors or VIPs and even then it's hit or miss. Or they went to a feeder like Andover and even there the school deliberately engineers their profile in this direction right down to their dress and social media to pander to the mediorce HR racists who tyranize this process under the pretense of being progressive.

We have a travesty when wealthy URM parents pay consultants tens of thousands of dollars to transform their sons(and this is for more blatant for males) into offensive caricatures to secure admission.

I suggest some of those in this thread watch the marketing content put out by this nation's top private schools and ask themselves if anyone, regardless of background, would dress, sound, and act the way those featured do if their parents were in a position to secure their admission at a $70,000 a year school.

[GP270watch]

Flexner Report:


Flexner's findings also restricted opportunities for African-American physicians in the medical sphere. Even the Howard and Meharry schools struggled to stay open following the Flexner Report, having to meet the institutional requirements of white medical schools, reflecting a divide in access to health care between white and African-Americans. Following the Flexner Report, African-American students sued universities, challenging the precedent set by Plessy v. Ferguson. However, those students were met by opposition from schools that remained committed to segregated medical education. It was not until 15 years after Brown v. Board of Education in 1954 that the AAMC ensured access to medical education for African-Americans and minorities by supporting the diversification of medical schools.

The closure of the five schools, and the fact that black students were not admitted to many U.S. medical schools for the 50 years following the Flexner Report, has contributed to the low numbers of American-born physicians of color as the ramifications are still felt, more than a century later. Tens of thousands of African American physicians disappeared as a result of the Flexner Report. In relation to the national Census, physicians belonging to minority groups, including African Americans, remain underrepresented in medicine.

 The United States purposely created a policy of giving Black Americans substandard healthcare and lack of medical providers. I personally know many doctors from all backgrounds and more than half of them has a parent who is a doctor. In the general population of doctors it's like 12% to 18%. But to put it plainly the children of doctors are 24 times more likely to be a doctor.

[jojoju1998]

There are serious cultural issues in America with African American performance. We know they exist, and they are not racial. How?

The top performing immigrant group in America is not Asian but Nigerian.

Individuals of African origin from anywhere else in the world perform at or above the level of Asian immigrants and above that of American-born Asians.

African Americans chronically underperform. They underperform corrected for income. They underperform corrected for parental education. Statistically an African American with parents who went to Harvard will perform worse on average than white or Asian peers, who in turn often perform worse than an African immigrant from more modest backgrounds.

There almost certainly is a cultural issue in America. Rather than solve it, we have seen the fat acceptance movement approach applied where any standards, measurements or systems that display inequality are declared racist. Much like scales and cholesterol were declared racist measures now test scores, and school performance is.

The thing is test scores are picking up something. The African American students with poor SAT scores are performing poorly in class, and poorly in the work-force. That is a problem and it needs to be fixed. Not responded to by removing all performance metrics for doctors of all people.

1. Nigerian migrants to the US are often wealthier, and have a higher expectation of education. It's the same thing for many Asian Immigrant families as well, ( not all however, the laotian community shows this.)



2. There seems to be a anti intellectualism in American Life and the African American community shows this. Not calling every Black American " dumb ", not my point at all. But this article I tound 16 years ago, shows what I'm talking about.

https://www.theroot.com/the-american-embrace-of-ignorance-and-why-blacks-need-1790899740

"In that context, the second book, John McWhorter's Losing the Race: Self-Sabotage in Black America, raises even more alarm today than when it was published in 2000. While Jacoby's story of America's increasing unreason should be unsettling to most Americans, it should be profoundly distressing to African-Americans. The ignorant, anti-intellectual America Jacoby describes is the same America in which African-American students are falling farther and farther behind every year. This growing achievement gap is fueled by a specifically African-American variety of anti-intellectualism that puts our children at an even greater distance from Enlightenment values than their white and Asian peers."

Many Black Americans, not all but many see being " Smart " as White, Elitist, and countercultural to their black values. Whatever might that be. I don't know. I'm Asian. But,



Yes, Yes, and Yes, African American life has no shortage of intellectual leaders such as MLK, and others, especially in the religious area ( Cardinal Wilton Gregory for example ), but, most Americans, black and white see that as an exception to the African American ethos or stereotype.


" But no one who has spent any significant amount of time with African-American teenagers over the past 20 years can fail to have observed that far too many of our children see the behaviors that lead to success in school as fundamentally foreign to their conception of authentic blackness."

https://www.theroot.com/the-american-embrace-of-ignorance-and-why-blacks-need-1790899740

The cultural output is changing however, albeit slowly. Obama's election in 2008 showed that there is a possibility for Black Americans to embrace their " intellectual " side, but even that is in question, because Obama didn't neccsarily grow up in the African American experience.

It was improving dramatically between around 1990 and 2014. Not least because of Affirmative Action, as it was then understood. Namely as a tool for diversifying elite institutions.  The goal was to recruit LGBT individuals, African Americans, and others into fraternities, banks, rowing etc in a form in which those institutions continued in their role but now took in the expanded elite.

Around 2014 the goal shifted. DEI as we understand it isn't about URMs. It is about the white elite. The goal is not to create a black elite or an LGBT elite. It is to allow the existing elite to exist in a "diverse" environment. Which means diversity recruits don't exist to help those groups by recruiting the best of the best, but to provide the existing elite "exposure". And quite frankly a black fraternity kid who rowed and wants to go to Goldman dosent provide that.

A lot of the backlash is to campuses "looking like this" and that's east to ascribe to racism. And some of it is. But it is also true that DEI has become a cover to recruiting on the basis of stereotypes. Which when it comes to African American applicants often means selecting against academically gifted students and actively looking for those with familial or other struggles.

Now it is a good thing for universities to diversify the family background if applicant's. But anyone who has worked with the admissions process the last five years can tell you that's not what they are doing. Activists increasingly claim ownership on hiring/admissions committees over all URM candidates and then actively select in such a way there are no spots for those who don't fit the stereotype. At which point you have near 1:1 associations.

The issue is not Asian and white applicant's losing spots.

1.It is that Barack Obama would likely not get into Harvard in 2024, and almost certainly would not if his parents were still together. At least based on what they did this year.  He also would not have gotten into Yale. He probably would have made Princeton or Stanford, but Harvard and Yale generally do not accept African American candidates who fit his profile unless they are the son of major donors or VIPs and even then it's hit or miss. Or they went to a feeder like Andover and even there the school deliberately engineers their profile in this direction right down to their dress and social media to pander to the mediorce HR racists who tyranize this process under the pretense of being progressive.

We have a travesty when wealthy URM parents pay consultants tens of thousands of dollars to transform their sons(and this is for more blatant for males) into offensive caricatures to secure admission.

I suggest some of those in this thread watch the marketing content put out by this nation's top private schools and ask themselves if anyone, regardless of background, would dress, sound, and act the way those featured do if their parents were in a position to secure their admission at a $70,000 a year school.

1. This does bring up a pretty good point about the role of historically black colleges and universities, and their... somewhat faltering role in creating homegrown black intellectual leaders, a black middle class.

I mentioned Obama, but people forget that Obama is not exactly African American in the historical sense. His father was a student from Kenya. Obama never actually grew up in the African American experience. So there's that.... dissonance that I think made Obama somewhat of a oddball in the African American world. Obama never went to Morehouse or Howard. His educational route has been ironically more akin to the White WASP trajectory. Columbia University. Harvard Law. His parents were of the academic world ( if not rich ).

Some could wonder if the reason why Obama got into these top schools in the first place, the first place was because he wasn't seen as " African American " or of that history.


The role of the historically black Universities I think is so important in creating homegrown black intellectual leaders, who are deeply rooted in the African American Experience. If we want to compare and contrast Obama with someone who is a classic Example of native born african American intellectual leadership,  Senator Raphael Warnock. Morehouse Grad. And then attended seminary. A theologian ( theologians as I said seems to be common with African American intellectual leaders.) That is a " classic " route. Unfortunately, our government has been cutting funding and support to these important insitutions.



2.

Flexner Report:


Flexner's findings also restricted opportunities for African-American physicians in the medical sphere. Even the Howard and Meharry schools struggled to stay open following the Flexner Report, having to meet the institutional requirements of white medical schools, reflecting a divide in access to health care between white and African-Americans. Following the Flexner Report, African-American students sued universities, challenging the precedent set by Plessy v. Ferguson. However, those students were met by opposition from schools that remained committed to segregated medical education. It was not until 15 years after Brown v. Board of Education in 1954 that the AAMC ensured access to medical education for African-Americans and minorities by supporting the diversification of medical schools.

The closure of the five schools, and the fact that black students were not admitted to many U.S. medical schools for the 50 years following the Flexner Report, has contributed to the low numbers of American-born physicians of color as the ramifications are still felt, more than a century later. Tens of thousands of African American physicians disappeared as a result of the Flexner Report. In relation to the national Census, physicians belonging to minority groups, including African Americans, remain underrepresented in medicine.

 The United States purposely created a policy of giving Black Americans substandard healthcare and lack of medical providers. I personally know many doctors from all backgrounds and more than half of them has a parent who is a doctor. In the general population of doctors it's like 12% to 18%. But to put it plainly the children of doctors are 24 times more likely to be a doctor.

But isn't that the case with most low income populaces, not just black ? Look at the Brits. Only 6 percent of their doctors/physicians come from " working class " backgrounds. https://www.hospitaltimes.co.uk/not-for-people-like-me-the-class-ceiling-within-the-health-sector-workforce/#:~:text=In%202019%2C%20the%20Sutton%20Trust,year%20than%20their%20wealthier%20counterparts.

[jojoju1998]

I mentioned Cardinal Wilton Gregory in a earlier post. And one can criticize the Catholic Church on many things; but one of the few things they got right was/is trying to provide a high quality education at a affordable price to all regardless of race or class.

Cardinal Gregory only became a Catholic through attending Catholic Schools, and his path to become a priest, bishop, and Cardinal started from there. And I don't think the Catholic Church is necceasrily that worried about DEI.

[jojoju1998]

Another observation :

One thing that I think is a positive change, is that we're seeing less and less political leaders from the Ivy Leagues. Tim Walz for example, went to Chadron State College. Newsom went to Santa Clara. Gretchen Whitmer went to Michigan State.

[jojoju1998]

There are serious cultural issues in America with African American performance. We know they exist, and they are not racial. How?

The top performing immigrant group in America is not Asian but Nigerian.

Individuals of African origin from anywhere else in the world perform at or above the level of Asian immigrants and above that of American-born Asians.

African Americans chronically underperform. They underperform corrected for income. They underperform corrected for parental education. Statistically an African American with parents who went to Harvard will perform worse on average than white or Asian peers, who in turn often perform worse than an African immigrant from more modest backgrounds.

There almost certainly is a cultural issue in America. Rather than solve it, we have seen the fat acceptance movement approach applied where any standards, measurements or systems that display inequality are declared racist. Much like scales and cholesterol were declared racist measures now test scores, and school performance is.

The thing is test scores are picking up something. The African American students with poor SAT scores are performing poorly in class, and poorly in the work-force. That is a problem and it needs to be fixed. Not responded to by removing all performance metrics for doctors of all people.

It's good when someone doesn't bother to filter out their thoughts on black people so we don't have to dance around it.

He brings up good points though. Not everything is racist. He's asking good questions.

[jojoju1998]

One more interesting observation :

"Like Washington, who founded the Tuskegee Institute and created a model for industrial education in the South, Barkley focuses relentlessly on the power of learning. It is his passion, a mission he calls a life purpose.

"They put us in a box where we can only be sports and entertainers," complains Barkley, who never graduated from Auburn. "White kids grow up thinking they can be doctors, lawyers and engineers. Black kids don't think that. My goal is to get young black kids, I never talk to them about sports. Never. I say hey, you can be a doctor, lawyer, engineer, teacher, fireman, policeman, things like that. I never talk to them about playing sports. It's unrealistic."

https://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_/id/12289603/how-former-nba-star-charles-barkley-became-role-model

[wnwnwn]

Well, he has some points, but I think his stats are skewed by the lower class low performers.
1 - Old stock african americans live disproportianelly in food deserts and that skews everything. Pretty sure the goverment can do soemthing about it, and help the white appalachians at the same time.
2 - Maybe take the"pro family" Moynihan approach on welfare.
3 - Maybe there should be some regulations about culture, about the music exposed to the children.
4 - Maybe being tough on crime but helping at the same time the minors on the family of the criminals may help a bit.
5 - I think a way to sell being a good student would be the Malcolm X approach. Well, this would to be a bit combined with other incentives and I don´t no major party would like to support it.

[jojoju1998]

Well, he has some points, but I think his stats are skewed by the lower class low performers.
1 - Old stock african americans live disproportianelly in food deserts and that skews everything. Pretty sure the goverment can do soemthing about it, and help the white appalachians at the same time.
2 - Maybe take the"pro family" Moynihan approach on welfare.
3 - Maybe there should be some regulations about culture, about the music exposed to the children.
4 - Maybe being tough on crime but helping at the same time the minors on the family of the criminals may help a bit.
5 - I think a way to sell being a good student would be the Malcolm X approach. Well, this would to be a bit combined with other incentives and I don´t no major party would like to support it.

And invest more in HBCUs !


Historically black Colleges and Universities have been, should be, and are developing grassroots native black leadership ( and it's a shame that funding to HBCUSs have been cut recently ).


Kamala Harris went to Howard. Senator Raphael Warnock went to Morehouse. Spike Lee went to Morehouse as well. ( Once again, I should mention that Obama never went to any HBCU ).

Speaking of Obama.... https://www.tmcf.org/events-media/tmcf-in-the-media/scold-in-chief-the-love-hate-relationship-between-hbcus-and-president-obama/


" “You can’t say graduation rates are important and then want to give free education to community college, where graduation rates for black students are worse,” said Kimbrough. “I can show you research that shows that if a black student needs remediation, and they start at a four-year school, they have a four times better chance of graduating with a four-year degree than if they started at a community college. That’s long-standing research. But they [the Obama administration] just don’t see it that way because, as Andy Young said during the 2008 campaign, and it was a valid criticism … the black people they have in the Obama administration are Ivy League-educated from the Northeast, and they don’t have anyone from the South. They just don’t understand HBCUs.”

And this is one of the reasons that have been posited about why Obama seems to have a disconnect with HBCUs. Growing up in Hawaii, and living most of his adult life in Chicago, the president, Kimbrough noted, didn’t have any natural connections with HBCUs; nor did he have any understanding of how blacks in the South, in comparison with those in the North, have different realities. Attendance at HBCUs in the South is interconnected with other social aspects of black Southern life, like fraternity and sorority membership and church affiliation. Generations of black HBCU alums take pride in being a “Morehouse man” or a “Spelman woman,” and since Obama does not have a direct connection to that experience, Kimbrough believes, HBCUs are a “learned” experience for him."

[lfromnj]

Why are we speaking about African Americans when the largest increase is mostly Hispanic from what I’ve seen?