Opinion of Patrice Lumumba?

[MyLifeIsYours]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrice_Lumumba

The first prime minster of the Democratic Republic of Congo. A true revolutionary who was assassinated by the Western coup for daring to speak out against their policies. Black leaders in America look up Lumumba as way to address the racial crisis of the 1960s.

What do you think of this fascinating figure in history?

[lfromnj]

Don't try to play both sides in a dangerous game.

[Atlas Has Shrugged]

Both.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Definitely one of the better postcolonial leaders, and like all the better postcolonial leaders he had to die.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

FF

[PSOL]

Definitely one of the better postcolonial leaders, and like all the better postcolonial leaders he had to die.

Being an idiot will do that.

[TDAS04]

Clear reminder that Eisenhower is a very overrated President, especially on this forum (I believe JFK is also quite overrated by boomers, but this forum almost overcompensates for that).

And Belgians, good God...

[Fuzzy Bear]

He was a Communist.

Outside of his regular studies, Lumumba took an interest in the Enlightenment ideals of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Voltaire. He was also fond of Molière and Victor Hugo. He wrote poetry, and many of his works had anti-imperialist themes.[13] He worked as a travelling beer salesman in Léopoldville and as a postal clerk in Stanleyville for eleven years.[14] Lumumba was married three times. He married Henriette Maletaua a year after arriving in Stanleyville; they divorced in 1947. In the same year, he married Hortense Sombosia, but this relationship also fell apart. He began an affair with Pauline Kie. While he had no children with his first two wives, his relationship with Kie resulted in a son, François Lumumba. Though he remained close with Kie until his death, Lumumba ultimately ended their affair to marry Pauline Opangu in 1951.[1]

[PSOL]

Rousseau and Voltaire are not communists and neither was Lumumba. Guy was a general African liberal.

[KaiserDave]

He was a Communist.

Outside of his regular studies, Lumumba took an interest in the Enlightenment ideals of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Voltaire. He was also fond of Molière and Victor Hugo. He wrote poetry, and many of his works had anti-imperialist themes.[13] He worked as a travelling beer salesman in Léopoldville and as a postal clerk in Stanleyville for eleven years.[14] Lumumba was married three times. He married Henriette Maletaua a year after arriving in Stanleyville; they divorced in 1947. In the same year, he married Hortense Sombosia, but this relationship also fell apart. He began an affair with Pauline Kie. While he had no children with his first two wives, his relationship with Kie resulted in a son, François Lumumba. Though he remained close with Kie until his death, Lumumba ultimately ended their affair to marry Pauline Opangu in 1951.[1]

There is nothing communist here. He was a liberal nationalist.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

He was naïve and idealistic in a situation where being those things could easily get you killed. And he was. Poor man.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

Does Fuzzy think Voltaire was a communist???

[Fuzzy Bear]

He was a Communist.

Outside of his regular studies, Lumumba took an interest in the Enlightenment ideals of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Voltaire. He was also fond of Molière and Victor Hugo. He wrote poetry, and many of his works had anti-imperialist themes.[13] He worked as a travelling beer salesman in Léopoldville and as a postal clerk in Stanleyville for eleven years.[14] Lumumba was married three times. He married Henriette Maletaua a year after arriving in Stanleyville; they divorced in 1947. In the same year, he married Hortense Sombosia, but this relationship also fell apart. He began an affair with Pauline Kie. While he had no children with his first two wives, his relationship with Kie resulted in a son, François Lumumba. Though he remained close with Kie until his death, Lumumba ultimately ended their affair to marry Pauline Opangu in 1951.[1]

There is nothing communist here. He was a liberal nationalist.

That's what Castro said, and at about the same time.

[KaiserDave]

He was a Communist.

Outside of his regular studies, Lumumba took an interest in the Enlightenment ideals of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Voltaire. He was also fond of Molière and Victor Hugo. He wrote poetry, and many of his works had anti-imperialist themes.[13] He worked as a travelling beer salesman in Léopoldville and as a postal clerk in Stanleyville for eleven years.[14] Lumumba was married three times. He married Henriette Maletaua a year after arriving in Stanleyville; they divorced in 1947. In the same year, he married Hortense Sombosia, but this relationship also fell apart. He began an affair with Pauline Kie. While he had no children with his first two wives, his relationship with Kie resulted in a son, François Lumumba. Though he remained close with Kie until his death, Lumumba ultimately ended their affair to marry Pauline Opangu in 1951.[1]

There is nothing communist here. He was a liberal nationalist.

That's what Castro said, and at about the same time.

For you to claim he was a communist and then provide a quote that mentions nothing of communism makes me confused. If he was there’s certainly nothing there that demonstrates it.

[MyLifeIsYours]

Clear reminder that Eisenhower is a very overrated President, especially on this forum (I believe JFK is also quite overrated by boomers, but this forum almost overcompensates for that).

And Belgians, good God...

Too many people will excuse "centrist" views for many misdeeds of the Eisenhower adminstration, chief among them, the CIA intervention that gave way to the Shah regime. 

[ingemann]

If he had lived he would almost certainly have turned out as bad as every other Congolese leader.

[Progressive Pessimist]

If he had lived he would almost certainly have turned out as bad as every other Congolese leader.

"You either die a hero or live long enough to become a villain."
-Every fratboy's yearbook quote from 2008

[PSOL]

He was a Communist.

Outside of his regular studies, Lumumba took an interest in the Enlightenment ideals of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Voltaire. He was also fond of Molière and Victor Hugo. He wrote poetry, and many of his works had anti-imperialist themes.[13] He worked as a travelling beer salesman in Léopoldville and as a postal clerk in Stanleyville for eleven years.[14] Lumumba was married three times. He married Henriette Maletaua a year after arriving in Stanleyville; they divorced in 1947. In the same year, he married Hortense Sombosia, but this relationship also fell apart. He began an affair with Pauline Kie. While he had no children with his first two wives, his relationship with Kie resulted in a son, François Lumumba. Though he remained close with Kie until his death, Lumumba ultimately ended their affair to marry Pauline Opangu in 1951.[1]

There is nothing communist here. He was a liberal nationalist.

That's what Castro said, and at about the same time.

Better Communist than Christian

[Republican Party Stalwart]

If he had lived he would almost certainly have turned out as bad as every other Congolese leader.

"You either die a hero or live long enough to become a villain."
-Every fratboy's yearbook quote from 2008

"Widely believed by a large number of unremarkable or unintelligent people" does not imply "false."

[Fuzzy Bear]

He was a Communist.

Outside of his regular studies, Lumumba took an interest in the Enlightenment ideals of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Voltaire. He was also fond of Molière and Victor Hugo. He wrote poetry, and many of his works had anti-imperialist themes.[13] He worked as a travelling beer salesman in Léopoldville and as a postal clerk in Stanleyville for eleven years.[14] Lumumba was married three times. He married Henriette Maletaua a year after arriving in Stanleyville; they divorced in 1947. In the same year, he married Hortense Sombosia, but this relationship also fell apart. He began an affair with Pauline Kie. While he had no children with his first two wives, his relationship with Kie resulted in a son, François Lumumba. Though he remained close with Kie until his death, Lumumba ultimately ended their affair to marry Pauline Opangu in 1951.[1]

There is nothing communist here. He was a liberal nationalist.

That's what Castro said, and at about the same time.

For you to claim he was a communist and then provide a quote that mentions nothing of communism makes me confused. If he was there’s certainly nothing there that demonstrates it.

https://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/lumumba/index.htm

Question: "Some of your political opponents accuse you of being a Communist. Could you reply to that?"

Answer (from Patrice Lumumba): "This is a propagandist trick aimed at me. I am not a Communist. The colonialists have campaigned against me throughout the country because I am a revolutionary and demand the abolition of the colonial regime, which ignored our human dignity. They look upon me as a Communist because I refused to be bribed by the imperialists."
(From an interview to a "France-Soir" correspondent on July 22, 1960)

This snipped has a link to a 1961 article from Isvestia:

Lumumba was the one who said that the Soviet Union was the only Great Power whose position was in accord with the will and views of the Congolese people. This evaluation of the Soviet Union's policy of disinterestedly supporting the fighting people of the Congo served as grounds for accusing Lumumba of favouring communism. He was asked about this during receptions in Leopoldville and during his trips abroad. His reply was:

"We are neither Communists, Catholics nor socialists. We are African nationalists. We reserve the right to choose our friends in accordance with the principle of positive neutrality."

None of this is to condone the murder of Lumumba, the way the man died, or the involvement Belgium, America, or the West in general may have interfered in the internal affairs of the Congo.  But Lumumba was clearly pro-Soviet, and people should not be in the dark about that.  Who knows what Lumumba would have been revealed to be had he lived?  I certainly don't.  But the idea that he would have drawn closer to Soviet style Communism, even in a sub silentio manner, is a scenario that is certainly reasonable considering Lumumba's own statements.

[Republican Party Stalwart]

Joseph Kasa-Vubu and Mobutu, as opposed to Lumumba, represented the heroic faction during the 1960s Congo Crisis, and those who say otherwise are either Communists, leftists, or useful idiots for communists and leftists. The decision made by the USA, under the administration of President Bill Clinton, to betray Mobutu in the late 1990s and quietly support the Communist-backed opposition in their overthrow of Zaire was a great misdeed (one of many) in the history of the USA's foreign policy.

[Republican Party Stalwart]

He was a Communist.

Outside of his regular studies, Lumumba took an interest in the Enlightenment ideals of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Voltaire. He was also fond of Molière and Victor Hugo. He wrote poetry, and many of his works had anti-imperialist themes.[13] He worked as a travelling beer salesman in Léopoldville and as a postal clerk in Stanleyville for eleven years.[14] Lumumba was married three times. He married Henriette Maletaua a year after arriving in Stanleyville; they divorced in 1947. In the same year, he married Hortense Sombosia, but this relationship also fell apart. He began an affair with Pauline Kie. While he had no children with his first two wives, his relationship with Kie resulted in a son, François Lumumba. Though he remained close with Kie until his death, Lumumba ultimately ended their affair to marry Pauline Opangu in 1951.[1]

There is nothing communist here. He was a liberal nationalist.

That's what Castro said, and at about the same time.

For you to claim he was a communist and then provide a quote that mentions nothing of communism makes me confused. If he was there’s certainly nothing there that demonstrates it.

https://www.marxists.org/subject/africa/lumumba/index.htm

Question: "Some of your political opponents accuse you of being a Communist. Could you reply to that?"

Answer (from Patrice Lumumba): "This is a propagandist trick aimed at me. I am not a Communist. The colonialists have campaigned against me throughout the country because I am a revolutionary and demand the abolition of the colonial regime, which ignored our human dignity. They look upon me as a Communist because I refused to be bribed by the imperialists."
(From an interview to a "France-Soir" correspondent on July 22, 1960)

This snipped has a link to a 1961 article from Isvestia:

Lumumba was the one who said that the Soviet Union was the only Great Power whose position was in accord with the will and views of the Congolese people. This evaluation of the Soviet Union's policy of disinterestedly supporting the fighting people of the Congo served as grounds for accusing Lumumba of favouring communism. He was asked about this during receptions in Leopoldville and during his trips abroad. His reply was:

"We are neither Communists, Catholics nor socialists. We are African nationalists. We reserve the right to choose our friends in accordance with the principle of positive neutrality."

None of this is to condone the murder of Lumumba, the way the man died, or the involvement Belgium, America, or the West in general may have interfered in the internal affairs of the Congo.  But Lumumba was clearly pro-Soviet, and people should not be in the dark about that.  Who knows what Lumumba would have been revealed to be had he lived?  I certainly don't.  But the idea that he would have drawn closer to Soviet style Communism, even in a sub silentio manner, is a scenario that is certainly reasonable considering Lumumba's own statements.

The meme, which many otherwise relatively non-unintelligent people foolishly believe, that "The West only saw Lumumba as a Communist because he asked the Soviets for needed help [sic.], and Lumumba only did so after he asked the West for the same thing and they refused" is one of many examples of Communist propaganda infiltrating the minds of American and Western mainstream educational, media, and political discourse.

[Christian Man]

FF and from the looks of this thread, fundamentally misunderstood.

[Christian Man]

He was a Communist.

Outside of his regular studies, Lumumba took an interest in the Enlightenment ideals of Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Voltaire. He was also fond of Molière and Victor Hugo. He wrote poetry, and many of his works had anti-imperialist themes.[13] He worked as a travelling beer salesman in Léopoldville and as a postal clerk in Stanleyville for eleven years.[14] Lumumba was married three times. He married Henriette Maletaua a year after arriving in Stanleyville; they divorced in 1947. In the same year, he married Hortense Sombosia, but this relationship also fell apart. He began an affair with Pauline Kie. While he had no children with his first two wives, his relationship with Kie resulted in a son, François Lumumba. Though he remained close with Kie until his death, Lumumba ultimately ended their affair to marry Pauline Opangu in 1951.[1]

There is nothing communist here. He was a liberal nationalist.

That's what Castro said, and at about the same time.

Opposing imperialism does not make you a Communist. And his school of thought was closer aligned with Mandela than Castro.

[West_Midlander]

Poor man who had his life ended horribly. I don't know much about him though.