Is This a Realistic Way the Nazis Could Have Won and Ruled Post-WWII?

[Mr. Ukucasha]

I'm crafting an alternate history novel that aims to challenge the common belief that a Nazi victory was always impossible and to depict the grim reality of a world under Nazi rule, even for so-called "Aryan" Germans. I've developed a scenario based on historical facts and plausible decisions, where the Nazis could have won if the U.S. had succumbed to isolationist pressures. Here's a brief synopsis:

“While President Franklin D. Roosevelt and most of his cabinet members advocated for stronger support to the Allies, Secretary of War Harry Woodring, an isolationist, opposed intervention. In 1940, the presidential line of succession ran from the POTUS to the VPOTUS, followed by the Secretary of State, the Treasury Secretary, and then the Secretary of War. This makes Woodring the most senior official in the administration to oppose lend lease and US intervention in WW2.

The Nazis, aware of a confidential meeting to discuss Woodring's potential dismissal (which did happen in reality in 1940 due to his isolationist stances), see an opportunity. Using Peter Lang, a fictional vulnerable American with Communist leanings, the Nazis persuade him to bomb the meeting. Presented with a vision of a changed world by Nazi operatives disguised as CPUSA leaders, Lang undertakes this mission. This meeting, convened to decide on the potential dismissal of Woodring due to his isolationist stance, naturally does not include Woodring himself. The explosion kills Roosevelt, Vice President Henry A. Wallace, Secretary of State Cordell Hull, and Secretary of Treasury Henry Morgenthau Jr., ironically paving the way for Woodring's presidency. After the attack, the Nazis skillfully spin a narrative that portrays Peter as a deranged lone wolf who acted out of personal vendetta. Forged documents, manipulated testimonials, and controlled media portrayals solidify this account. They are able to cover their tracks and the attack is written off as the actions of a “mentally disturbed lone wolf”. In this scenario, Woodring would be able to pick his own VP, and he chooses another staunch isolationist, Burton K. Wheeler. The irony is not lost - a meeting intended to terminate Woodring's political career inadvertently leads to his presidency. After Woodring ascends to the presidency, he quickly withdraws America from the global stage, halting the Lend-Lease and fostering a policy of isolationism.

With America withdrawn from the global stage, the Nazis stabilize the Eastern Front and expand their territories. This seems likely since even Stalin himself acknowledged that the USSR couldn’t have won without US lend lease. The Nazis implement their horrifying Generalplan Ost, a real plan they had developed, which involved clearing vast swathes of Central and Eastern Europe of their indigenous populations to make way for German settlers. By their own estimates, Generalplan Ost would’ve killed 100 million+ people. They also launch an invasion of Palestine, a move they had planned, with the sole purpose of exterminating its Jewish population. As the world watches in horror, the concept of "Jews" becomes as extinct as the dinosaurs in Third Reich territory. The Nazis eventually kill all 9 million Jews in Europe and all 3 million Jews in the Palestine area, leaving only 5 million Jews scattered across other countries, predominately the US.

Driven by their insatiable hatred and determination to eliminate Jews entirely, the Nazis enact a sinister 'gradual extinction' plan called Endlosung der Globalen Judenfrage. This plan involves the deployment of secret Nazi agents globally, who are tasked with the kidnapping and execution of approximately 30,000 Jews annually. They also pressure other governments to oppress or exterminate their Jewish populations, ensuring that the idea of a Jewish person becomes as extinct as the dinosaurs. The world becomes a nightmarish realm, a testament to the horrors that arise when evil goes unchallenged.

While Generalplan Ost and an invasion of Palestine were actual plans the Nazis intended to execute, the Endlosung der Globalen Judenfrage in this novel is a fictional construct. However, it is designed to realistically depict how the Nazis might have extended their genocidal policies to exterminate the remaining Jews outside their territories, had they won WWII. This extrapolation is supported by historical evidence, such as the Nazis' compilation of lists of Jews in places as far away as Canada and Australia and them urging their Japanese allies to exterminate their Jewish population, indicating their global genocidal intent. Especially by the end of the war, merely making Europe Judenfrei was not enough for the Nazis because “they could still harm Germany from other countries,” and they wanted to make the entire world Judenfrei as much as they realistically could.

The profound irony is that a meeting meant to decide Woodring's political fate inadvertently paved the way for a world where the swastika flies unchallenged.”

I'd appreciate your thoughts on the realism of this scenario.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Lend-Lease to the USSR didn't really start arriving in bulk until well into 1942. It would have been a longer slog without the British being able to open a second front for much longer, but it's extremely difficult to not imagine the war ending with Nazi Germany not being destroyed.

If the Germans keep America out of the war and roll all sixes on the Eastern Front to the extent that the Soviet Union capitulates, they would still be massively overstretched in conducting anti-partisan operations from Poland to the Urals. Combined with an economic model which was non-functional without constantly being at war and being able to loot and plunder, even this Germany would struggle to make it to 1960.

Also, I don't think the Democrats would nominate Woodring at the convention even if he were the incumbent--most likely it would have gone to Hull or Farley.

[Samof94]

I'm crafting an alternate history novel that aims to challenge the common belief that a Nazi victory was always impossible and to depict the grim reality of a world under Nazi rule, even for so-called "Aryan" Germans. I've developed a scenario based on historical facts and plausible decisions, where the Nazis could have won if the U.S. had succumbed to isolationist pressures. Here's a brief synopsis:

“While President Franklin D. Roosevelt and most of his cabinet members advocated for stronger support to the Allies, Secretary of War Harry Woodring, an isolationist, opposed intervention. In 1940, the presidential line of succession ran from the POTUS to the VPOTUS, followed by the Secretary of State, the Treasury Secretary, and then the Secretary of War. This makes Woodring the most senior official in the administration to oppose lend lease and US intervention in WW2.

The Nazis, aware of a confidential meeting to discuss Woodring's potential dismissal (which did happen in reality in 1940 due to his isolationist stances), see an opportunity. Using Peter Lang, a fictional vulnerable American with Communist leanings, the Nazis persuade him to bomb the meeting. Presented with a vision of a changed world by Nazi operatives disguised as CPUSA leaders, Lang undertakes this mission. This meeting, convened to decide on the potential dismissal of Woodring due to his isolationist stance, naturally does not include Woodring himself. The explosion kills Roosevelt, Vice President Henry A. Wallace, Secretary of State Cordell Hull, and Secretary of Treasury Henry Morgenthau Jr., ironically paving the way for Woodring's presidency. After the attack, the Nazis skillfully spin a narrative that portrays Peter as a deranged lone wolf who acted out of personal vendetta. Forged documents, manipulated testimonials, and controlled media portrayals solidify this account. They are able to cover their tracks and the attack is written off as the actions of a “mentally disturbed lone wolf”. In this scenario, Woodring would be able to pick his own VP, and he chooses another staunch isolationist, Burton K. Wheeler. The irony is not lost - a meeting intended to terminate Woodring's political career inadvertently leads to his presidency. After Woodring ascends to the presidency, he quickly withdraws America from the global stage, halting the Lend-Lease and fostering a policy of isolationism.

With America withdrawn from the global stage, the Nazis stabilize the Eastern Front and expand their territories. This seems likely since even Stalin himself acknowledged that the USSR couldn’t have won without US lend lease. The Nazis implement their horrifying Generalplan Ost, a real plan they had developed, which involved clearing vast swathes of Central and Eastern Europe of their indigenous populations to make way for German settlers. By their own estimates, Generalplan Ost would’ve killed 100 million+ people. They also launch an invasion of Palestine, a move they had planned, with the sole purpose of exterminating its Jewish population. As the world watches in horror, the concept of "Jews" becomes as extinct as the dinosaurs in Third Reich territory. The Nazis eventually kill all 9 million Jews in Europe and all 3 million Jews in the Palestine area, leaving only 5 million Jews scattered across other countries, predominately the US.

Driven by their insatiable hatred and determination to eliminate Jews entirely, the Nazis enact a sinister 'gradual extinction' plan called Endlosung der Globalen Judenfrage. This plan involves the deployment of secret Nazi agents globally, who are tasked with the kidnapping and execution of approximately 30,000 Jews annually. They also pressure other governments to oppress or exterminate their Jewish populations, ensuring that the idea of a Jewish person becomes as extinct as the dinosaurs. The world becomes a nightmarish realm, a testament to the horrors that arise when evil goes unchallenged.

While Generalplan Ost and an invasion of Palestine were actual plans the Nazis intended to execute, the Endlosung der Globalen Judenfrage in this novel is a fictional construct. However, it is designed to realistically depict how the Nazis might have extended their genocidal policies to exterminate the remaining Jews outside their territories, had they won WWII. This extrapolation is supported by historical evidence, such as the Nazis' compilation of lists of Jews in places as far away as Canada and Australia and them urging their Japanese allies to exterminate their Jewish population, indicating their global genocidal intent. Especially by the end of the war, merely making Europe Judenfrei was not enough for the Nazis because “they could still harm Germany from other countries,” and they wanted to make the entire world Judenfrei as much as they realistically could.

The profound irony is that a meeting meant to decide Woodring's political fate inadvertently paved the way for a world where the swastika flies unchallenged.”

I'd appreciate your thoughts on the realism of this scenario.

Hitler's plans to rebuild Berlin were also completely unrealistic.

[Good Habit]

Lend-Lease to the USSR didn't really start arriving in bulk until well into 1942. It would have been a longer slog without the British being able to open a second front for much longer, but it's extremely difficult to not imagine the war ending with Nazi Germany not being destroyed.

If the Germans keep America out of the war and roll all sixes on the Eastern Front to the extent that the Soviet Union capitulates, they would still be massively overstretched in conducting anti-partisan operations from Poland to the Urals. Combined with an economic model which was non-functional without constantly being at war and being able to loot and plunder, even this Germany would struggle to make it to 1960.

Also, I don't think the Democrats would nominate Woodring at the convention even if he were the incumbent.

Well, the original post didn't clearly state when the assasination plot happend... - in any case, Wallace was only VP trough Roosevelts 3rd term - so the sacking of Woodring would have to been delayed in that TL - so we have to assume it happened early in 1941 - so there is almoust a full term open... (unless there would be some decision by congress that W is only "acting president" - and an early election would be called..

[Vice President Christian Man]

I doubt the Nazi party would've been able to unless they de Hiterlarized via. Khrushchev with Stalin, but more likely it would have to take a Gorbochev-type reformation for them to have a fighting chance. But what most people don't realize is that many Nazi's assimilated and moderated into mainstream conservatism after the war and chancellor Kiesinger was a former Nazi himself.

[Progressive Pessimist]

The way to win was apparently through using the Dial of Destiny to assassinate and replace Hitler.

The Valkyrie guys stupidly never thought of that!

[HillGoose]

No, the Nazis could never have won. Their wine is the venom of asps and the pitiless poison of vipers.

Nazis were DEMON WORSHIPERS who practiced OCCULT MIND CONTROL and committed UNSPEAKABLE ATROCITIES.

The Nazis were DOOMED always due to their WICKED ways.

[Alben Barkley]

The way to win was apparently through using the Dial of Destiny to assassinate and replace Hitler.

The Valkyrie guys stupidly never thought of that!

Goddamn I forgot how stupid that movie is, why did you have to remind me?

Anyway OP, no: There is no chance the Nazis could have somehow covered up their involvement in a decapitation strike on the US federal government. The US would have been out for blood just like after Pearl Harbor, Germany would have been implicated, and even Woodring (who by 1938 was no longer isolationist anyway) would have uncovered their involvement and declared war on them. The entire scenario is so fantastical from the start I couldn't even finish it. If anything this would just have accelerated the demise of the Nazis, as the US would get involved in the war earlier.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

They should have respected the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact, to not have an eastern front. WW1 should have taught them that.

They should have not allied Japan (and instead possibly even China).

And they should have aimed for peace after France was conquered while allowing all of France, minus Alsace-Lorraine to be governed by a French fascist state. This would have also made Spain and Portugal more sympathetic.

Antisemitism had zero gains and should have never happened, this wasn't a major factor in WWII as the cruelties weren't known to the extent they would be known later, this would have always led to condemnation. They should have also moderated their ideology in general.

Only than, they would have stand a chance.

It's not about the ability to conquer, it's also the ability to garrison the area they conquered, Germany overextended.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

They should have respected the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact, to not have an eastern front. WW1 should have taught them that.
[...]
Antisemitism had zero gains and should have never happened, this wasn't a major factor in WWII as the cruelties weren't known to the extent they would be known later, this would have always led to condemnation. They should have also moderated their ideology in general.

If they did these things, they wouldn't be Nazis in the first place.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

They should have respected the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact, to not have an eastern front. WW1 should have taught them that.
[...]
Antisemitism had zero gains and should have never happened, this wasn't a major factor in WWII as the cruelties weren't known to the extent they would be known later, this would have always led to condemnation. They should have also moderated their ideology in general.

If they did these things, they wouldn't be Nazis in the first place.

That's absolutely true.

There is a reason things went the way they went and why they lost the war.

[Mr. Ukucasha]

The way to win was apparently through using the Dial of Destiny to assassinate and replace Hitler.

The Valkyrie guys stupidly never thought of that!

Goddamn I forgot how stupid that movie is, why did you have to remind me?

Anyway OP, no: There is no chance the Nazis could have somehow covered up their involvement in a decapitation strike on the US federal government. The US would have been out for blood just like after Pearl Harbor, Germany would have been implicated, and even Woodring (who by 1938 was no longer isolationist anyway) would have uncovered their involvement and declared war on them. The entire scenario is so fantastical from the start I couldn't even finish it. If anything this would just have accelerated the demise of the Nazis, as the US would get involved in the war earlier.

Not true. He remained a staunch isolationist well after 1938, even opposing all lend-lease, which is why FDR fired him in 1940.

[Alben Barkley]

They should have respected the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact, to not have an eastern front. WW1 should have taught them that.

I mean, they beat the Russians in WW1 and lost in France. It was the opposite of what happened in WW2.

Plus by the time Operation Barbarossa happened, there effectively was no other front; the French had been defeated and the British were stuck on an island. Sure there was North Africa, but that was small potatoes in comparison.

People talk all the time about how dumb it was to open up a "second front," but it's really hindsight talking; in reality a "second front" didn't open up for 3 years after Barbarossa. The Germans struck while the iron was hot and came damn close to succeeding. Conflict with the Soviets was inevitable anyway, so it made more sense to do it then than to wait for the Soviets to prepare a defense with better leadership after the purges, if not strike first themselves.

If Hitler's plan to "kick in the door and bring the whole rotten structure down" had actually succeeded, which again it nearly did, we'd be living in a much darker world today. They would have completely taken over all of Europe, genocided the Slavs and Jews on an even more massive scale, and it may never have been possible for the Western Allies to liberate the continent. Instead it's possible the British would sue for peace and we would have a cold war between the US and Germany, and who knows how that would end?

[Alben Barkley]

The way to win was apparently through using the Dial of Destiny to assassinate and replace Hitler.

The Valkyrie guys stupidly never thought of that!

Goddamn I forgot how stupid that movie is, why did you have to remind me?

Anyway OP, no: There is no chance the Nazis could have somehow covered up their involvement in a decapitation strike on the US federal government. The US would have been out for blood just like after Pearl Harbor, Germany would have been implicated, and even Woodring (who by 1938 was no longer isolationist anyway) would have uncovered their involvement and declared war on them. The entire scenario is so fantastical from the start I couldn't even finish it. If anything this would just have accelerated the demise of the Nazis, as the US would get involved in the war earlier.

Not true. He remained a staunch isolationist well after 1938, even opposing all lend-lease, which is why FDR fired him in 1940.

I was mistaken about that, granted, but I still think even he would not have stood idly by after the President and half the cabinet were killed.

[OSR stands with Israel]

They should have respected the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact, to not have an eastern front. WW1 should have taught them that.

I mean, they beat the Russians in WW1 and lost in France. It was the opposite of what happened in WW2.

Plus by the time Operation Barbarossa happened, there effectively was no other front; the French had been defeated and the British were stuck on an island. Sure there was North Africa, but that was small potatoes in comparison.

People talk all the time about how dumb it was to open up a "second front," but it's really hindsight talking; in reality a "second front" didn't open up for 3 years after Barbarossa. The Germans struck while the iron was hot and came damn close to succeeding. Conflict with the Soviets was inevitable anyway, so it made more sense to do it then than to wait for the Soviets to prepare a defense with better leadership after the purges, if not strike first themselves.

If Hitler's plan to "kick in the door and bring the whole rotten structure down" had actually succeeded, which again it nearly did, we'd be living in a much darker world today. They would have completely taken over all of Europe, genocided the Slavs and Jews on an even more massive scale, and it may never have been possible for the Western Allies to liberate the continent. Instead it's possible the British would sue for peace and we would have a cold war between the US and Germany, and who knows how that would end?

The Soviets would not have surrendered even after Moscow fell . The Nazis still would have to go south and try to take the Caucasus and the Russian oil feels and likely would have failed then .

But yeah if the USSR fell the only way to have defeated the Nazis is for the US to build a lot of nukes and then drop like 50-100 of them on Germany as soon as we could produce that many (Germany still wouldn’t have built a nuke by then as they were way behind ) . So yeah even the win condition here would have been a far darker world than OTL .