Israel-Gaza war

[All Along The Watchtower]

Whatever the truth of that may be, it’s rather off-topic to this thread IMO. Yes, I know I’ve been guilty of this too, but it doesn’t mean we can’t improve the quality of discussion about the ongoing Israel-Gaza war—though considering the countries involved, I’m not getting my hopes up about that.

[Badger]

The last piece of fake Hamas-fabricated outrage propaganda was already a while ago, so I suppose it was time for something new again. Gladly consumed by the 'Western, enlightened, liberal' target audience, of course, with no questions asked.

Translation:  " despite Hamas being a completely barbaric organization, I refuse to acknowledge widespread civilian deaths in Gaza because it's very uncomfortable to me personally. So buzzword buzzword buzzword."

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

"You claim the IDF killed dozens of babies but they actually only killed half a dozen babies. Checkmate, Israel haters!"

See I knew, as soon as I wrote that I knew, with full certainty, that you were going to post something stupid like this.  Because that is the purpose of the lie.  You take something bad that Israel did, you exaggerate it so that it becomes something much worse than they did, and then when I correct you, you pretend like I am defending the bad thing Israel did.

For instance.

I agree that Israeli actions in the attack on al-Shifa led to the deaths of eight babies in incubators.  I am not disputing this!  But I am not going to let you get away with saying "dozens" of babies were killed.  That is a lie, and it is a lie you are telling intentionally so that you can exaggerate how awful Israel is.

I was going by memory because personally, I consider murdering babies in incubators to be a kind of moral event horizon regardless of whether the precise number is half a dozen or more. When Hamas was accused of beheading 40 babies it was generally considered gauche to start quibbling over exactly how many babies were killed or whether they were killed in some other manner because everyone understood that killing babies is evil. Whether Hamas killed 40 babies or 4 babies, we could all safely call them murderous terrorists who deserve destruction regardless of the exact number. Yet when it's the IDF killing babies suddenly we can't call it an atrocity until they've hit some arbitrary number.

I also agree that the IDF overestimated the scope of the base they expected to find under al-Shifa hospital.  I literally said this in my post.  It's entirely possible that they lied about this intentionally to defend their attack.  It's also possible they did not have good intel on the tunnel and were basing their claims on Amnesty International's reporting from 2014.  This does not mean that the tunnel was "tiny", or that there was "no connection to the hospital", or that "what they found was nothing like what they promised."  None of that is true -- the tunnel was just feet away from the hospital, ran under the hospital, drew power from the hospital, and was very long with many different sections and rooms.  There is literally a video of them going from outside the hospital, to down inside the tunnel, looking at all the wires coming down from the hospital up above, exploring all the rooms.  But you are still taking the fact that Israel was wrong (possibly lied) about it being Hamas's "headquarters" and using that to push for the notion that Israel lied about the whole thing.  I'll also note that you have switched from using the term "command center" (as in your original post) to "headquarters", which are very different things.

I say "headquarters" and "command center" because these are both terms the Israelis used. You'll notice I never said "tunnel" because, again, you could say that nearly every building in Gaza probably has a tunnel under or near it at some depth. I simply held the IDF to the standard of proving the claims they made, and those claims were found wanting. The tunnel, like literally every tunnel in Gaza, had basic features like lighting and power, but compared with subsequently discovered tunnels big enough to drive a car through it is absolutely "tiny" by comparison. The entrance to said tunnel was not in the hospital building and I've seen conflicting statements from the journalists they provided the guided tour as to whether it was actually on hospital grounds or if it was merely beside the hospital, a trick they used on CNN to justify destroying graveyards. Regardless, neither the location of the entrance nor the scale of the tunnel network justified storming a hospital and killing babies.

Now we are talking about an alleged massacre where Israeli soldiers shot nearly 1000 people.  To back up the notion that "Israel shoots people" you are posting assorted incidents where Israeli soldiers allegedly shot individual people or small groups of people.  Nowhere in here is there any precedent for Israel shooting 1000 people.  There is precedent for Israel shooting a small number of people, which is what I agree they did.  But you are trying to claim otherwise.

And I am just waiting for you to drop the "Israel only shot a couple dozen people rather than 1000, checkmate Israel haters!" mockery, because the truth doesn't matter, and when you harbor a seething hatred for Israel you can tell no difference between 1000 people getting shot and like 50 people getting shot, or between people getting massacred while trying to get food versus people getting shot because they were crowding around Israeli tanks and wouldn't disperse.  Because why bother making the distinction?  You can just pick the worst possible order of events and choose to believe that.  And run around for the rest of your life acting on your belief that Israeli soldiers massacred 1000 people in cold blood for just trying to get food.  Why bother learning the truth?

You seem to have a hard time with reading comprehension since you keep hinging these arguments on things that were never said.

Israel intentionally produced mass starvation among the civilian population in territory supposedly under its control, then Israeli soldiers fired into the crowd of starving people with the result that hundreds to over a thousand people are dead or wounded. That much is totally beyond dispute, and it would be an atrocity even if 90% of the casualties were the result of trampling, a claim in total contradiction to the claims by pretty much everyone besides the IDF. I'll repeat the Euro Med statement:

Euro-Med Monitor stated that the evidence—which is supported by video footage showing the shooting operation—demonstrates that dozens of victims suffered gunshot wounds, rather than being run over or crushed, in contrast to what the Israeli army spokesman claimed.

The rights group highlighted four pieces of evidence confirming the Israeli army’s killing and wounding of starving civilians, the first of which is the signs of injuries on the bodies of the dead and injured. These injuries were documented by a Euro-Med Monitor researcher as soon as the victims arrived at Al-Shifa Hospital, as was the blood on flour bags and aid boxes.

The second piece of evidence is the footage released by the Israeli army itself, which includes audible evidence of gunfire emanating from Israeli tanks positioned near the coast, which the army purposefully covered up in the video using black; eyewitnesses have confirmed that the tanks were present close to the crime scene.

The third piece of evidence concerns the bullets’ distinct sound signature, said Euro-Med Monitor, which is audible in the footage released at the time of the shooting and identifies them as coming from an automatic weapon used by the Israeli army with 5.56 bullets.

Finally, the rights group stated that the aerial video published by the Israeli army is intentionally fragmented and distorted. At minute 1:06, however, the video footage does indicate the existence of at least two Israeli tanks, as well as multiple bodies, in the path of the tanks rather than the aid trucks.

The Geneva-based organisation noted that during minutes 1:06–1:28 in the video, the majority of those in attendance—including individuals who had initially been far from the aid trucks—can be seen fleeing from the trucks, i.e. running in the opposite direction. This indicates that the danger did not originate from the trucks themselves or from the surrounding crowd of people, but rather from an outside source that terrified everyone in the area, both close to and far away from the trucks. Furthermore, the video clip released by the Israeli army does not depict any ramming operations, which aligns with numerous survivors’ accounts of being shot in the back as they attempted to flee the scene.

Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor emphasised that under no circumstances should the veracity and credibility of footage released by Israel’s army to absolve itself of its crimes be accepted without first granting an independent external investigative body full access to the army’s data to review all of the information. If the international community immediately accepts Israel’s altered footage as fact, it will only result in an absurd scenario in which the Israeli army simultaneously acts as perpetrator, investigator, and judge.

In fact, Euro-Med Monitor added, the army’s video clip demonstrates Israel’s culpability, even if one ignores the edits and accepts the story of a “stampede”, as it reveals the extent of this Israeli-made humanitarian disaster and the crime of starvation that caused hordes of civilians to rush towards aid trucks today. As the entry and protection of these trucks are obstructed by Israeli army forces, starving Palestinians are seen risking their lives while trying to reach the trucks, which are located close to army concentration points.

Israeli generals openly admit that they intend to use starvation and disease to create a humanitarian disaster to pressure Hamas:

https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1726326602399940867

If they succeed, tens if not hundreds of thousands of people will die. Yet I'm supposed to believe that shooting hundreds instead of dozens would somehow be out of character for the IDF?

[GeneralMacArthur]

Israeli generals openly admit that they intend to use starvation and disease to create a humanitarian disaster to pressure Hamas

I said I wasn't going to re-engage on this discussion and I am not going to, but I do just want to point out that this is another lie.

The "Israeli general" (singular) here is Giora Eiland, who retired from the IDF more than twenty years ago and has since been nothing but a pundit.

This is the equivalent of taking something Oliver North said on Fox News and going "look what the American generals are saying!"

You're a smart guy, so I am confident that you know this, but chose to write the above anyway.  I will let others make up their own minds as to why you would do this.

[GoTfan]

The two types of Israel supporters:

1) “Uh ackthually, it wasn’t 25,000 Gazans dead, it was merely 22,000. Get your facts straight.”

2) “I wish it was a million.”

The two types of anti-Israel posters:

1) “Uh ackthually, I don’t support Hamas, I just support the rape, mass murder, and ethnic cleansing of all Jewish Israelis.  Get your facts straight.”

2) “Hamas should finish what Hitler started!”

This is a duplicitous argument and you know ir

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

The two types of Israel supporters:

1) “Uh ackthually, it wasn’t 25,000 Gazans dead, it was merely 22,000. Get your facts straight.”

2) “I wish it was a million.”

The two types of anti-Israel posters:

1) “Uh ackthually, I don’t support Hamas, I just support the rape, mass murder, and ethnic cleansing of all Jewish Israelis.  Get your facts straight.”

2) “Hamas should finish what Hitler started!”

This is a duplicitous argument and you know ir

Yes, I 100% agree and so is Dule’s post.  My point was that it’s easy to make nonsensical offensive bad-faith BS sh!tposts and this was no different - certainly no more inaccurate - than Dule’s post.  If you thought Dule’s post was fine, but found mine offensive then that suggests bias on your part because they’re basically the same post. 

I also was curious if this would be infracted for excessive hyperbole even though Dule’s was not.  I was pleasantly surprised by the lack of a double standard.

[OSR stands with Israel]

The last piece of fake Hamas-fabricated outrage propaganda was already a while ago, so I suppose it was time for something new again. Gladly consumed by the 'Western, enlightened, liberal' target audience, of course, with no questions asked.

Sadly its just not liberals but many so called "paleoconservatives" and "libertarians" as well. Sadly it seems like young people in general have lost their mind on this issue

[Horus]

The last piece of fake Hamas-fabricated outrage propaganda was already a while ago, so I suppose it was time for something new again. Gladly consumed by the 'Western, enlightened, liberal' target audience, of course, with no questions asked.

Sadly its just not liberals but many so called "paleoconservatives" and "libertarians" as well. Sadly it seems like young people in general have lost their mind on this issue

Quite the opposite. Young people have a very clear heart on this matter, far more than the boomers and Xers who think Israel can do no wrong.

[OSR stands with Israel]

The last piece of fake Hamas-fabricated outrage propaganda was already a while ago, so I suppose it was time for something new again. Gladly consumed by the 'Western, enlightened, liberal' target audience, of course, with no questions asked.

Sadly its just not liberals but many so called "paleoconservatives" and "libertarians" as well. Sadly it seems like young people in general have lost their mind on this issue

Quite the opposite. Young people have a very clear heart on this matter, far more than the boomers and Xers who think Israel can do no wrong.

No siding with a bunch of Islamists who want to genocide all non muslims is not "having a very clear heart on this matter".

 

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The last piece of fake Hamas-fabricated outrage propaganda was already a while ago, so I suppose it was time for something new again. Gladly consumed by the 'Western, enlightened, liberal' target audience, of course, with no questions asked.

Sadly its just not liberals but many so called "paleoconservatives" and "libertarians" as well. Sadly it seems like young people in general have lost their mind on this issue

Quite the opposite. Young people have a very clear heart on this matter, far more than the boomers and Xers who think Israel can do no wrong.

No siding with a bunch of Islamists who want to genocide all non muslims is not "having a very clear heart on this matter".

They weren't the ones attacking the Christian churches in Gaza.

[CumbrianLefty]

In the real world, very very few people actually think "Hamas should finish what Hitler started". Whilst in contrast, the literal destruction of the Palestinian people - whether through killing or expelling - is now the position of a significant minority both within Israel and amongst its fellow travellers.

[Lord Halifax]

the literal destruction of the Palestinian people - whether through killing or expelling - is now the position of a significant minority both within Israel and amongst its fellow travellers.

hyperbole, the Palestinian people would still exist even if none of them resided within Palestine.   

[America Needs R'hllor]

Negotiations for a deal once again blew up as Qatari and American delegation arrive in Cairo- Hamas refuses to send a list of live hostages, Qatar says this prevents progress. Israel said they would only send a team to Cairo if Hamas provided a list of hostages.

This sure is an important development! I’m sure the activists who are so interested in a ceasefire will now pressure Hamas to stop withholding information about the hostages and preventing a ceasefire!

[Silent Hunter]

Negotiations for a deal once again blew up as Qatari and American delegation arrive in Cairo- Hamas refuses to send a list of live hostages, Qatar says this prevents progress. Israel said they would only send a team to Cairo if Hamas provided a list of hostages.

This sure is an important development! I’m sure the activists who are so interested in a ceasefire will now pressure Hamas to stop withholding information about the hostages and preventing a ceasefire!

The UN Secretary General has in fact called for the unconditional release of all hostages.

[Birdish]

Negotiations for a deal once again blew up as Qatari and American delegation arrive in Cairo- Hamas refuses to send a list of live hostages, Qatar says this prevents progress. Israel said they would only send a team to Cairo if Hamas provided a list of hostages.

This sure is an important development! I’m sure the activists who are so interested in a ceasefire will now pressure Hamas to stop withholding information about the hostages and preventing a ceasefire!

It's probably because Hamas doesn't know and can't find out because of how destroyed the lines of communication are. I don't think this actually derails the ceasefire talks if Hamas can get a rough list together.

[afleitch]

The two types of Israel supporters:

1) “Uh ackthually, it wasn’t 25,000 Gazans dead, it was merely 22,000. Get your facts straight.”

2) “I wish it was a million.”

The two types of anti-Israel posters:

1) “Uh ackthually, I don’t support Hamas, I just support the rape, mass murder, and ethnic cleansing of all Jewish Israelis.  Get your facts straight.”

2) “Hamas should finish what Hitler started!”

This is a duplicitous argument and you know ir

Yes, I 100% agree and so is Dule’s post.  My point was that it’s easy to make nonsensical offensive bad-faith BS sh!tposts and this was no different - certainly no more inaccurate - than Dule’s post.  If you thought Dule’s post was fine, but found mine offensive then that suggests bias on your part because they’re basically the same post. 

I also was curious if this would be infracted for excessive hyperbole even though Dule’s was not.  I was pleasantly surprised by the lack of a double standard.

It wasn't even reported. You're a moderator. You know this.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

The two types of Israel supporters:

1) “Uh ackthually, it wasn’t 25,000 Gazans dead, it was merely 22,000. Get your facts straight.”

2) “I wish it was a million.”

The two types of anti-Israel posters:

1) “Uh ackthually, I don’t support Hamas, I just support the rape, mass murder, and ethnic cleansing of all Jewish Israelis.  Get your facts straight.”

2) “Hamas should finish what Hitler started!”

This is a duplicitous argument and you know ir

Yes, I 100% agree and so is Dule’s post.  My point was that it’s easy to make nonsensical offensive bad-faith BS sh!tposts and this was no different - certainly no more inaccurate - than Dule’s post.  If you thought Dule’s post was fine, but found mine offensive then that suggests bias on your part because they’re basically the same post.  

I also was curious if this would be infracted for excessive hyperbole even though Dule’s was not. I was pleasantly surprised by the lack of a double standard.

It wasn't even reported. You're a moderator. You know this.

Yes, it was.  You’re literally the moderator who marked Dule’s post as no violation counted.  You know this.

[Horus]

https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1764048158529839601?t=Al33a1-mghL2u9hZ0TfvxA...

[Silent Hunter]

Opposition to the air drops is also something shared by Amnesty and other human rights groups, who feel the US is virtue signalling and should be instead pressuring Israel to let more aid in by land.

The counter to that is that much of northern Gaza is now lawless and the truck drivers aren't willing to risk their lives.

[afleitch]

The two types of Israel supporters:

1) “Uh ackthually, it wasn’t 25,000 Gazans dead, it was merely 22,000. Get your facts straight.”

2) “I wish it was a million.”

The two types of anti-Israel posters:

1) “Uh ackthually, I don’t support Hamas, I just support the rape, mass murder, and ethnic cleansing of all Jewish Israelis.  Get your facts straight.”

2) “Hamas should finish what Hitler started!”

This is a duplicitous argument and you know ir

Yes, I 100% agree and so is Dule’s post.  My point was that it’s easy to make nonsensical offensive bad-faith BS sh!tposts and this was no different - certainly no more inaccurate - than Dule’s post.  If you thought Dule’s post was fine, but found mine offensive then that suggests bias on your part because they’re basically the same post.  

I also was curious if this would be infracted for excessive hyperbole even though Dule’s was not. I was pleasantly surprised by the lack of a double standard.

It wasn't even reported. You're a moderator. You know this.

Yes, it was.  You’re literally the moderator who marked Dule’s post as no violation counted.  You know this.

I'm taking about your post.

It can't be infracted if it's not been reported.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

Israeli generals openly admit that they intend to use starvation and disease to create a humanitarian disaster to pressure Hamas

I said I wasn't going to re-engage on this discussion and I am not going to, but I do just want to point out that this is another lie.

The "Israeli general" (singular) here is Giora Eiland, who retired from the IDF more than twenty years ago and has since been nothing but a pundit.

This is the equivalent of taking something Oliver North said on Fox News and going "look what the American generals are saying!"

You're a smart guy, so I am confident that you know this, but chose to write the above anyway.  I will let others make up their own minds as to why you would do this.

More like if Oliver North went on Fox News and said "Here's the plan: we're going to take over Baghdad, destroy the civilian infrastructure, then starve everyone to death with the goal of pressuring the insurgents"

then not long after, children in Baghdad are literally starving to death and comparisons are being drawn with Mogadishu as pro-government protesters block the entry of aid trucks with the tacit support of the authorities

then you show up to helpfully inform people that Oliver North is only a retired general, as if he isn't just describing reality

Opposition to the air drops is also something shared by Amnesty and other human rights groups, who feel the US is virtue signalling and should be instead pressuring Israel to let more aid in by land.

The counter to that is that much of northern Gaza is now lawless and the truck drivers aren't willing to risk their lives.

The counter to that counter is that the IDF should, as the occupying force, establish humanitarian zones in the territory under its control to manage the distribution of aid like every modern army ever

This isn't some unsolvable issue, if the IDF wanted aid to reach people in northern Gaza without the risk of looting they could do so trivially

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

The two types of Israel supporters:

1) “Uh ackthually, it wasn’t 25,000 Gazans dead, it was merely 22,000. Get your facts straight.”

2) “I wish it was a million.”

The two types of anti-Israel posters:

1) “Uh ackthually, I don’t support Hamas, I just support the rape, mass murder, and ethnic cleansing of all Jewish Israelis.  Get your facts straight.”

2) “Hamas should finish what Hitler started!”

This is a duplicitous argument and you know ir

Yes, I 100% agree and so is Dule’s post.  My point was that it’s easy to make nonsensical offensive bad-faith BS sh!tposts and this was no different - certainly no more inaccurate - than Dule’s post.  If you thought Dule’s post was fine, but found mine offensive then that suggests bias on your part because they’re basically the same post.  

I also was curious if this would be infracted for excessive hyperbole even though Dule’s was not. I was pleasantly surprised by the lack of a double standard.

It wasn't even reported. You're a moderator. You know this.

Yes, it was.  You’re literally the moderator who marked Dule’s post as no violation counted.  You know this.

I'm taking about your post.

It can't be infracted if it's not been reported.

It was reported and then marked no violation counted by another mod.  But I apologize if I mistakenly commended you for being fair and unbiased.  Won’t happen again

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

https://twitter.com/ryangrim/status/1764048158529839601?t=Al33a1-mghL2u9hZ0TfvxA...

Why would Biden cause an international incident over the words of a fairly infamous activist and troll who has failed to get any actual position in government? This is like asking why France didn't pull out of NATO over Rush Limbaugh insulting them.

[Birdish]

It's so hard to follow the ongoing negotiations because it feel likes you're getting different stories from each news source. BBC News is reporting Hamas is hopeful they can get a deal within 48 hours, Israeli sources like The Times of Israel are essentially calling the talks near death because Sinwar wants more civilian deaths during Ramadan, Reuters barely goes into details and focuses on the current humanitarian crisis.

The only conclusion I can come up with is that nobody really knows if the talks are on track to succeed or not.

[afleitch]

The two types of Israel supporters:

1) “Uh ackthually, it wasn’t 25,000 Gazans dead, it was merely 22,000. Get your facts straight.”

2) “I wish it was a million.”

The two types of anti-Israel posters:

1) “Uh ackthually, I don’t support Hamas, I just support the rape, mass murder, and ethnic cleansing of all Jewish Israelis.  Get your facts straight.”

2) “Hamas should finish what Hitler started!”

This is a duplicitous argument and you know ir

Yes, I 100% agree and so is Dule’s post.  My point was that it’s easy to make nonsensical offensive bad-faith BS sh!tposts and this was no different - certainly no more inaccurate - than Dule’s post.  If you thought Dule’s post was fine, but found mine offensive then that suggests bias on your part because they’re basically the same post.  

I also was curious if this would be infracted for excessive hyperbole even though Dule’s was not. I was pleasantly surprised by the lack of a double standard.

It wasn't even reported. You're a moderator. You know this.

Yes, it was.  You’re literally the moderator who marked Dule’s post as no violation counted.  You know this.

I'm taking about your post.

It can't be infracted if it's not been reported.

It was reported and then marked no violation counted by another mod.  But I apologize if I mistakenly commended you for being fair and unbiased.  Won’t happen again

It was reported after your post claiming it had been and after I said it hadn't so my point still stands.