Israel-Gaza war

[Indy Texas 🇺🇦🇵🇸]

But the right to live in a particular country comes from citizenship (or permanent residency status), not indigeneity or the quality of your ancestors having lived somewhere. Countries are not generally understood to have responsibilities towards those who voluntarily leave it, much less their descendants, which is why Vicente Fox has no claim to American citizenship, and why Serbs who once lived Eastern Slavonia do not get the benefits of EU citizenship.

I think the descendants of the 1948 emigration wave don't get to return (unless they lobby the Israeli government for it, much as the Zionists once lobbied the British colonial authorities) because nothing in the world works that way, and the demand that it work that way in this case is strange and isolated.

An interesting analogy to your "what if the Native Americans pushed white Americans out" scenario would be the modern history of Kazakhstan: a majority of the population were white European settlers/expellees from the mid-1930s to the mid-1990s. After independence in 1991, an authoritarian government arose dominated by the native Kazakh minority, which worked to promote white European emigration to Russia and Germany (...and FTR Israel); but in that case the white Europeans were generally happy to cooperate because they would've enjoyed higher standards of living in those countries than Kazakhstan. This isn't generally regarded as a crime of any sort.

Are you doing this thing again where you pretend Palestinians just shrugged and decided they didn't want to live in their homes anymore while Israel begged and pleaded with them to please stay? And when they did this, they for some reason didn't list their houses for sale or acquire a visa/permission for permanent residency elsewhere, or do all that other stuff people not under duress generally do when they move out of the country?

[Vosem]

But the right to live in a particular country comes from citizenship (or permanent residency status), not indigeneity or the quality of your ancestors having lived somewhere. Countries are not generally understood to have responsibilities towards those who voluntarily leave it, much less their descendants, which is why Vicente Fox has no claim to American citizenship, and why Serbs who once lived Eastern Slavonia do not get the benefits of EU citizenship.

I think the descendants of the 1948 emigration wave don't get to return (unless they lobby the Israeli government for it, much as the Zionists once lobbied the British colonial authorities) because nothing in the world works that way, and the demand that it work that way in this case is strange and isolated.

An interesting analogy to your "what if the Native Americans pushed white Americans out" scenario would be the modern history of Kazakhstan: a majority of the population were white European settlers/expellees from the mid-1930s to the mid-1990s. After independence in 1991, an authoritarian government arose dominated by the native Kazakh minority, which worked to promote white European emigration to Russia and Germany (...and FTR Israel); but in that case the white Europeans were generally happy to cooperate because they would've enjoyed higher standards of living in those countries than Kazakhstan. This isn't generally regarded as a crime of any sort.

Are you doing this thing again where you pretend Palestinians just shrugged and decided they didn't want to live in their homes anymore while Israel begged and pleaded with them to please stay? And when they did this, they for some reason didn't list their houses for sale or acquire a visa/permission for permanent residency elsewhere, or do all that other stuff people not under duress generally do when they move out of the country?

No, I think they left because they decided that they didn't want to live in a Zionist state. (This is widely acknowledged both in memoirs from the period and the earliest Arab histories, as by Zureiq, before being challenged by anti-Zionist small-r revisionists in the 1980s). My great-grandmother left Poland because she didn't want to live under German occupation (and in a very hurried way, quite literally abandoning her home and family) many years before there was a Holocaust*; sometimes being panicked about the future turns out to be correct, and sometimes it does not. In the Zionist case, it was the Arabs who stayed who had the best outcomes. (Similarly, in India, in the long run it was the Muslims who stayed rather than fleeing to Pakistan who had better outcomes -- but nobody thinks India has a responsibility to let the Muhajirs return. In the Balkan Wars it ended up being the case that the best outcomes could be had by staying in the spots which would join the EU first -- but nobody did this, and nobody thinks Croatia has some metaphysical responsibility to let Serbs in.)

I don't think the Israelis begged and pleaded with them to stay, much as the Indians did not beg and plead for the Muhajirs to stay and the Croats did not beg and plead for the Serbs to stay. (In fact in all of these cases stringent measures were taken to ensure those who fled would not return, even as other measures were taken to let in or give special privileges to individuals with much more strained claims to indigeneity.) My point is that none of these cases are interpreted as being the fault of the new government, and in no case is the new government understood to continue to have any responsibilities towards those who left. I think this is fine because I don't really value indigeneity as a concept, and I don't think the righteousness of Zionism comes from Jews being somehow 'more indigenous' than Palestinians. It comes from the framework of international law generally and the stated aims of political actors.

*And she was not permitted to return after the war, either by Soviet emigration or Polish immigration law. In total fairness to your point, though, this law changed after the 1989 revolution to allow those who had literally been citizens of the Second Republic to return. (This post initially featured a long tangent about my relationship with Polish immigration law which is not necessary to make the point.)

[All Along The Watchtower]

But many Palestinians were forced out. Precisely how many is a matter of heated dispute and competing propaganda narratives, but that forced expulsions did occur is a matter of historical fact.

[Vosem]

But many Palestinians were forced out. Precisely how many is a matter of heated dispute and competing propaganda narratives, but that forced expulsions did occur is a matter of historical fact.

But, like, a very small percentage of the overall total. Some Muhajirs and Croatian Serbs were forced out by local militias, too, and it would very much be advantageous to their descendants to return (or, I mean, the Croatian stuff was in the 1990s, so it substantially just is the same people), but there is still not an expectation that this be done because the precedent would be so destabilizing to so many existing countries. (And international law exists for the benefit of countries, not individual humans. This is why the greatest, most unpardonable sin is a war of conquest, an attempt to destroy another country.)

There isn't really even an expectation that people be allowed to return when they are expelled by force, as with the Germans in eastern Europe, the French in Algeria, or the Italians in Libya. Khrushchev reversing the Stalinist deportations here is a fascinating counter-example, I guess, though that one was purely internal to a single country. I think in these cases there is generally an acknowledgment that the governments involved committed terrible crimes and should atone in some vague sense, but in the former category I don't even think that expectation generally exists.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

The moral depravity of posters like Vosem, Patzer and General Macarthur is apalling; if they voiced similar opinions on any other group of people they would have been instantly banned but since it's the palestinaina issue we've got people acting like it's ok to treat them like Indigenous Americans who should be thrown into bantustans.

[Vosem]

The moral depravity of posters like Vosem, Patzer and General Macarthur is apalling; if they voiced similar opinions on any other group of people they would have been instantly banned but since it's the palestinaina issue we've got people acting like it's ok to treat them like Indigenous Americans who should be thrown into bantustans.

Like, what makes you think this? I advocate for treating them the same way that people who raised me were treated (or treated others), and the same way I advocate treating anyone else who happens to live in a warzone. (Reminds me a few weeks ago when Badger brought up Cambodia and then immediately changed the subject when I gave the obvious answer). I don't distinguish between how I think the Palestinians should be treated and anyone else.

(Also I've called for besieging northern Yemen. But also, if you really think there are no wars worth winning, then you're just a fool.)

[GoTfan]

The moral depravity of posters like Vosem, Patzer and General Macarthur is apalling; if they voiced similar opinions on any other group of people they would have been instantly banned but since it's the palestinaina issue we've got people acting like it's ok to treat them like Indigenous Americans who should be thrown into bantustans.

Like, what makes you think this? I advocate for treating them the same way that people who raised me were treated (or treated others), and the same way I advocate treating anyone else who happens to live in a warzone. (Reminds me a few weeks ago when Badger brought up Cambodia and then immediately changed the subject when I gave the obvious answer). I don't distinguish between how I think the Palestinians should be treated and anyone else.

(Also I've called for besieging northern Yemen. But also, if you really think there are no wars worth winning, then you're just a fool.)

You've said that wiping every Gazan is a price you're willing to pay. You have called for Palestiniand to essentially be starved to death. You've also accused me of supporting slavery because I'm concerned about civilians caught in the crossfire, which is a far cry from supporting terrorists.

The difference between you and others is that to you, the mildest concern for innocent civilians is cause for labelling someone as a supporter of slavery and terrorism.

[Vosem]

The moral depravity of posters like Vosem, Patzer and General Macarthur is apalling; if they voiced similar opinions on any other group of people they would have been instantly banned but since it's the palestinaina issue we've got people acting like it's ok to treat them like Indigenous Americans who should be thrown into bantustans.

Like, what makes you think this? I advocate for treating them the same way that people who raised me were treated (or treated others), and the same way I advocate treating anyone else who happens to live in a warzone. (Reminds me a few weeks ago when Badger brought up Cambodia and then immediately changed the subject when I gave the obvious answer). I don't distinguish between how I think the Palestinians should be treated and anyone else.

(Also I've called for besieging northern Yemen. But also, if you really think there are no wars worth winning, then you're just a fool.)

You've said that wiping every Gazan is a price you're willing to pay. You have called for Palestiniand to essentially be starved to death. You've also accused me of supporting slavery because I'm concerned about civilians caught in the crossfire, which is a far cry from supporting terrorists.

The difference between you and others is that to you, the mildest concern for innocent civilians is cause for labelling someone as a supporter of slavery and terrorism.

Yeah; I was raised by people who lived in warzones during the Second World War, and I’ve met people who fled Abkhazia in the 1990s. My mother finished high school in Mykolaiv in southern Ukraine, and people she is still in touch with who still live there experienced the city being shelled while the Russians occupied Kherson. I resent the insinuation that I cannot empathize with people in warzones; I know what this experience means more than most here.

Yes, it is absolutely evil to permit groups like Hamas to win if destroying them costs more than some number of civilian casualties. (And, yes, their victory would absolutely embolden slavers.) This does not mean that I don’t value the lives of people in warzones; my position is a common-sense stance which people that have experienced warfare share.

[Velasco]

The moral depravity of posters like Vosem, Patzer and General Macarthur is apalling; if they voiced similar opinions on any other group of people they would have been instantly banned but since it's the palestinaina issue we've got people acting like it's ok to treat them like Indigenous Americans who should be thrown into bantustans.

Like, what makes you think this? I advocate for treating them the same way that people who raised me were treated (or treated others), and the same way I advocate treating anyone else who happens to live in a warzone. (Reminds me a few weeks ago when Badger brought up Cambodia and then immediately changed the subject when I gave the obvious answer). I don't distinguish between how I think the Palestinians should be treated and anyone else.

(Also I've called for besieging northern Yemen. But also, if you really think there are no wars worth winning, then you're just a fool.)

You've said that wiping every Gazan is a price you're willing to pay. You have called for Palestiniand to essentially be starved to death. You've also accused me of supporting slavery because I'm concerned about civilians caught in the crossfire, which is a far cry from supporting terrorists.

The difference between you and others is that to you, the mildest concern for innocent civilians is cause for labelling someone as a supporter of slavery and terrorism.

Yeah; I was raised by people who lived in warzones during the Second World War, and I’ve met people who fled Abkhazia in the 1990s. My mother finished high school in Mykolaiv in southern Ukraine, and people she is still in touch with who still live there experienced the city being shelled while the Russians occupied Kherson. I resent the insinuation that I cannot empathize with people in warzones; I know what this experience means more than most here.

Yes, it is absolutely evil to permit groups like Hamas to win if destroying them costs more than some number of civilian casualties. (And, yes, their victory would absolutely embolden slavers.) This does not mean that I don’t value the lives of people in warzones; my position is a common-sense stance which people that have experienced warfare share.

At this moment Israel's offensive is has caused 20 civilian casualties for every casualty caused by Hamas. Neither Hamas destruction is guaranteed nor Israel's army is attempting to minimize damage. On the contrary Israeli authorities are blocking aid to civilians in Gaza and killing them throughout all the Gaza strip.

Indeed your long and abstruse posts in this thread (I think you and Gen Mac are spamming, basically) reveal a remarkable lack of empathy, which is certainly a characteristic shared by Israel supporters.

I'm becoming increasingly convinced what Israel is doing amounts to genocide,  on the other hand

[MyLifeIsYours]

https://twitter.com/anthonyzenkus/status/1747867812897374233

An institution that was occupied by the apartheid state now demolished to history, just as with the villages  that were torn apart from the hostile Zionist forces in 1948. This is somehow acceptable to Israel apologist because it somehow anti-semitic to question anything about that nation.

[Velasco]

Certainly she's not a dangerous terrorist

https://twitter.com/DCIPalestine/status/1748406746010288432?t=_Fi3T7eeX382mGmdr7...

[patzer]

https://twitter.com/DCIPalestine/status/1748406746010288432?t=_Fi3T7eeX382mGmdr7...

It really is a shame no countries are offering to take in even those refugees in poor health and Egypt is still blocking people from leaving.

I'm increasingly convinced that Israel should put on free buses able to take all women, young children, and elderly/infirm people who wish to flee Gaza Strip to the Allenby Bridge border with Jordan. It's the only way people are going to get the shelter and healthcare that they need as long as Egypt keeps blocking it.

[Frodo]

Israel has come to a fork in the road:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas
Some Israeli commanders said the government’s two main goals were mutually incompatible. To eradicate Hamas, the military would have to engage in a lengthy war that would most likely cost the hostages’ lives.

Given the general incompetence with which Israel under Netanyahu has waged its war against Hamas from the outset (dooming the prospect of destroying that vile organization), they should concentrate on getting the remaining hostages freed.  

[patzer]

Israel has come to a fork in the road:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas
Some Israeli commanders said the government’s two main goals were mutually incompatible. To eradicate Hamas, the military would have to engage in a lengthy war that would most likely cost the hostages’ lives.

Given the general incompetence with which Israel under Netanyahu has waged its war against Hamas from the outset (dooming the prospect of destroying that vile organization), they should concentrate on getting the remaining hostages freed.  

If they let Hamas survive for the sake of the hostages, that is the same as conceding defeat to Hamas.

They need to take into account not only the current hostages but also all other Israeli civilians who would be subject to Hamas brutality in the future if Hamas is allowed to survive in any meaningful capacity.

[Velasco]

It really is a shame no countries are offering to take in even those refugees in poor health and Egypt is still blocking people from leaving.

I'm increasingly convinced that Israel should put on free buses able to take all women, young children, and elderly/infirm people who wish to flee Gaza Strip to the Allenby Bridge border with Jordan. It's the only way people are going to get the shelter and healthcare that they need as long as Egypt keeps blocking it.

It is certainly a shame that Israel is unwilling to allow the entry of refugees from Gaza inside its territory, which is the place from where most of their ancestors were expelled. I know such humanitarian actions are unconceivable for Israel, especiallyunder a far-right Kahanist government. However,  It'd be a nice move and good way to rebuke genocide
allegations

There is a reason why Egypt is unwilling to accept refugees from Gaza. Historical precedent show that Palestinian refigees are never allowed to return. The Egyptian authorities do not want a new Lebanon (remember Sabra and Shatila!) in the Sinai peninsula. Plain and simple. Call them "geopolitical reasons" if you please

[Frodo]

Israel has come to a fork in the road:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas
Some Israeli commanders said the government’s two main goals were mutually incompatible. To eradicate Hamas, the military would have to engage in a lengthy war that would most likely cost the hostages’ lives.

Given the general incompetence with which Israel under Netanyahu has waged its war against Hamas from the outset (dooming the prospect of destroying that vile organization), they should concentrate on getting the remaining hostages freed.  

If they let Hamas survive for the sake of the hostages, that is the same as conceding defeat to Hamas.

They need to take into account not only the current hostages but also all other Israeli civilians who would be subject to Hamas brutality in the future if Hamas is allowed to survive in any meaningful capacity.

They are not going to be able to destroy Hamas anyway, not given the way they have been trying to do it so far, and certainly not without continued support from the United States which is starting to erode.  It is a crying shame, but I think Israel missed its moment. 

[Velasco]

Israel has come to a fork in the road:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas
Some Israeli commanders said the government’s two main goals were mutually incompatible. To eradicate Hamas, the military would have to engage in a lengthy war that would most likely cost the hostages’ lives.

Given the general incompetence with which Israel under Netanyahu has waged its war against Hamas from the outset (dooming the prospect of destroying that vile organization), they should concentrate on getting the remaining hostages freed.  

If they let Hamas survive for the sake of the hostages, that is the same as conceding defeat to Hamas.

They need to take into account not only the current hostages but also all other Israeli civilians who would be subject to Hamas brutality in the future if Hamas is allowed to survive in any meaningful capacity.

They are not going to be able to destroy Hamas anyway, not given the way they have been trying to do it so far, and certainly not without continued support from the United States which is starting to erode.  It is a crying shame, but I think Israel missed its moment. 

I doubt there was a possibility to destroy Hamas and it's a crying shame the US and its allies have been supporting a military offensive that looks like a genocide

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Israel has come to a fork in the road:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas
Some Israeli commanders said the government’s two main goals were mutually incompatible. To eradicate Hamas, the military would have to engage in a lengthy war that would most likely cost the hostages’ lives.

Given the general incompetence with which Israel under Netanyahu has waged its war against Hamas from the outset (dooming the prospect of destroying that vile organization), they should concentrate on getting the remaining hostages freed.  

If they let Hamas survive for the sake of the hostages, that is the same as conceding defeat to Hamas.

They need to take into account not only the current hostages but also all other Israeli civilians who would be subject to Hamas brutality in the future if Hamas is allowed to survive in any meaningful capacity.

They are not going to be able to destroy Hamas anyway, not given the way they have been trying to do it so far, and certainly not without continued support from the United States which is starting to erode.  It is a crying shame, but I think Israel missed its moment. 

I doubt there was a possibility to destroy Hamas and it's a crying shame the US and its allies have been supporting a military offensive that looks like a genocide

The military offensive that looks like a genocide is why Israel missed its moment to degrade Hamas (if you don't like "destroy", which is reasonable of you given that Hamas is as much a state of mind as a distinct organization). Part of me knew it was headed this direction as soon as the area-bombing-first campaign against a terrorist organization in an extremely densely populated place started. Multiple "rule number ones" of asymmetric warfare were being violated from the start in ways inconsistent with Israel's stated goals but depressingly consistent with collective punishment for its own sake.

[Horus]

Kirby has been particularly obsequious towards Likud, one of the worst people in the Biden admin.

https://twitter.com/prem_thakker/status/1748764022927708562?t=rgecew1A7wcHVt3lUf...

[Frodo]

Israel has come to a fork in the road:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas
Some Israeli commanders said the government’s two main goals were mutually incompatible. To eradicate Hamas, the military would have to engage in a lengthy war that would most likely cost the hostages’ lives.

Given the general incompetence with which Israel under Netanyahu has waged its war against Hamas from the outset (dooming the prospect of destroying that vile organization), they should concentrate on getting the remaining hostages freed.  

If they let Hamas survive for the sake of the hostages, that is the same as conceding defeat to Hamas.

They need to take into account not only the current hostages but also all other Israeli civilians who would be subject to Hamas brutality in the future if Hamas is allowed to survive in any meaningful capacity.

They are not going to be able to destroy Hamas anyway, not given the way they have been trying to do it so far, and certainly not without continued support from the United States which is starting to erode.  It is a crying shame, but I think Israel missed its moment.  

I doubt there was a possibility to destroy Hamas and it's a crying shame the US and its allies have been supporting a military offensive that looks like a genocide

Under better leadership, Israel could have come up with an actual workable strategy to not only free the hostages but also destroy Hamas at minimal cost (in lives, and in every other sense of the word).  That was a real possibility.  They had that window of opportunity.  But it seems they learned nothing from our post-9/11 experience.      

[Vosem]

Israel has come to a fork in the road:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas
Some Israeli commanders said the government’s two main goals were mutually incompatible. To eradicate Hamas, the military would have to engage in a lengthy war that would most likely cost the hostages’ lives.

Given the general incompetence with which Israel under Netanyahu has waged its war against Hamas from the outset (dooming the prospect of destroying that vile organization), they should concentrate on getting the remaining hostages freed.  

If they let Hamas survive for the sake of the hostages, that is the same as conceding defeat to Hamas.

They need to take into account not only the current hostages but also all other Israeli civilians who would be subject to Hamas brutality in the future if Hamas is allowed to survive in any meaningful capacity.

They are not going to be able to destroy Hamas anyway, not given the way they have been trying to do it so far, and certainly not without continued support from the United States which is starting to erode.  It is a crying shame, but I think Israel missed its moment. 

Why won't they be able to destroy Hamas fighting like this? How else can you destroy an organization which has fortified a city?* (And in what way is support from the US going to erode? All of the major congressional leaders remain committed to hugely increasing US military aid to Israel in the next budget. I don't think US government support for the current conflict has even actually peaked.)

Anyway, in response to your other article, I've been saying since the first week of the war that while rescuing the hostages would be good it would be deeply sad for the entire world if that goal were allowed to interfere with the broader goal of destroying Hamas.

*Actually, faster ways absolutely exist, but they would be much bloodier; at the moment the Israeli government is spending an enormous amount of effort trying to keep the civilian casualty count low, which is not at all required by international law.

https://twitter.com/DCIPalestine/status/1748406746010288432?t=_Fi3T7eeX382mGmdr7...

It really is a shame no countries are offering to take in even those refugees in poor health and Egypt is still blocking people from leaving.

I'm increasingly convinced that Israel should put on free buses able to take all women, young children, and elderly/infirm people who wish to flee Gaza Strip to the Allenby Bridge border with Jordan. It's the only way people are going to get the shelter and healthcare that they need as long as Egypt keeps blocking it.

I disagree. If Israel has the right to refuse refugees from Gaza because of suspected political extremism, then of course Jordan and Egypt have the same right. Both countries are currently in the midst of their own crises, as the Egyptian economy is tanking because of Houthi shipping raids and there's an escalating near-war situation on the Jordanian/Syrian border, and both countries have collaborated with the war against Hamas (to the point that Egypt could legally be considered an Israeli co-belligerent). Forcing either country to accept Gazans would be wrong and insulting to those nations.

Velasco has a point that if the inhabitants of Gaza leave, it is relatively unlikely that they would be permitted to return (partially because an Israeli-occupied territory might reasonably demand proof of not being anti-Zionist, which few Gazans could provide, and partially because an increased ferocity of warfare in Gaza in the absence of civilians might just leave Gaza actually uninhabitable for the foreseeable future). Whether the possible creation of a Palestinian state should be prioritized ahead of Palestinian lives is morally questionable, I think, but except for a few central European countries it is the choice the world has made. There are no obvious places to permit them to go, and while extremely poor countries (like Congo-Brazzaville, which I think was suggested?) could be bribed, this would set a new precedent in the laws of warfare which many countries would be leery of, and could probably only be done by a wide international consensus. Such a consensus does not exist.

The solution, as always, is for Hamas to unconditionally surrender and agree in good faith to carry out Israeli policies. Then the war in Gaza will come to an end.

[Velasco]

Israel has come to a fork in the road:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas
Some Israeli commanders said the government’s two main goals were mutually incompatible. To eradicate Hamas, the military would have to engage in a lengthy war that would most likely cost the hostages’ lives.

Given the general incompetence with which Israel under Netanyahu has waged its war against Hamas from the outset (dooming the prospect of destroying that vile organization), they should concentrate on getting the remaining hostages freed.  

If they let Hamas survive for the sake of the hostages, that is the same as conceding defeat to Hamas.

They need to take into account not only the current hostages but also all other Israeli civilians who would be subject to Hamas brutality in the future if Hamas is allowed to survive in any meaningful capacity.

They are not going to be able to destroy Hamas anyway, not given the way they have been trying to do it so far, and certainly not without continued support from the United States which is starting to erode.  It is a crying shame, but I think Israel missed its moment. 

I doubt there was a possibility to destroy Hamas and it's a crying shame the US and its allies have been supporting a military offensive that looks like a genocide

The military offensive that looks like a genocide is why Israel missed its moment to degrade Hamas (if you don't like "destroy", which is reasonable of you given that Hamas is as much a state of mind as a distinct organization). Part of me knew it was headed this direction as soon as the area-bombing-first campaign against a terrorist organization in an extremely densely populated place started. Multiple "rule number ones" of asymmetric warfare were being violated from the start in ways inconsistent with Israel's stated goals but depressingly consistent with collective punishment for its own sake.

"Degrade" sounds more feasible than "destroy". I'm not an expert on military questions, but maybe drones and special forces could have been more effective than unguided bombs. Israeli authories could have offered temporary refuge to Gazans while fighting Hamas. Anyway proportionated and humanitarian approaches are fantasies when the nation's president states there are no innocent civilians in Gaza

[Frodo]

Israel has come to a fork in the road:

In Strategic Bind, Israel Weighs Freeing Hostages Against Destroying Hamas
Some Israeli commanders said the government’s two main goals were mutually incompatible. To eradicate Hamas, the military would have to engage in a lengthy war that would most likely cost the hostages’ lives.

Given the general incompetence with which Israel under Netanyahu has waged its war against Hamas from the outset (dooming the prospect of destroying that vile organization), they should concentrate on getting the remaining hostages freed.  

If they let Hamas survive for the sake of the hostages, that is the same as conceding defeat to Hamas.

They need to take into account not only the current hostages but also all other Israeli civilians who would be subject to Hamas brutality in the future if Hamas is allowed to survive in any meaningful capacity.

They are not going to be able to destroy Hamas anyway, not given the way they have been trying to do it so far, and certainly not without continued support from the United States which is starting to erode.  It is a crying shame, but I think Israel missed its moment.  

Why won't they be able to destroy Hamas fighting like this? How else can you destroy an organization which has fortified a city?*

Israel can't sustain an operation like this without outside support, primarily from the United States.  If you are losing the public relations war here, it is only a matter of time before you lose militarily as well.  We learned that hard lesson after the 1968 Tet offensive.  And they are losing the PR war.  

(And in what way is support from the US going to erode?

I doubt it has gotten any better since then:

US public support for Israel drops; majority backs a ceasefire, Reuters/Ipsos shows

All of the major congressional leaders remain committed to hugely increasing US military aid to Israel in the next budget. I don't think US government support for the current conflict has even actually peaked.)

Tell that to the House Republican Conference.  Evidently they view both Israel and Ukraine as expendable and subordinate to their overring interest over the US/Mexico border, and carrying water for Donald Trump.  

[Velasco]

They don't have memory, they're just blinded by hatred

https://twitter.com/returnstosender/status/1748747028941738369?t=MSa1o6rTDUc1N7p...

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

They don't have memory, they're just blinded by hatred

https://twitter.com/returnstosender/status/1748747028941738369?t=MSa1o6rTDUc1N7p...

Imagine actually believing this