Israel-Gaza war
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 30, 2024, 12:07:48 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  International General Discussion (Moderators: afleitch, Hash)
  Israel-Gaza war
« previous next »
Thread note
MODERATOR WARNING: Any kind of inappropriate posts, including support for indiscriminate killing of civilians, and severe personal attacks against other posters will not be tolerated.


Pages: 1 ... 175 176 177 178 179 [180] 181 182 183 184 185 ... 311
Author Topic: Israel-Gaza war  (Read 219062 times)
dead0man
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 46,553
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4475 on: December 14, 2023, 12:08:36 AM »

They don't have to be good at war when they have Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis, Iraqi and Syrian militias, etc. Asymmetric/irregular warfare operates by different rules from state-on-state military conflict. Iran can fight dirty on the relative cheap and at a remove, giving their regime just enough plausible deniability in any given attack by a proxy force.
sure and even if all of them went 100% at Israel they couldn't "overwhelm" it, plus who would be left at home to terrorize the locals?  It's much safer to make life hell for local Lebanese than it is trying to take a bunker in northern Israel.
Quote
And it's not like any of the Israel-"aligned" Arab countries (other than maybe Egypt) have competent militaries, even assuming that their militaries would remain loyal to their respective regimes in a conflict against Israel---or the United States....
I don't think anyone would expect Egypt or Jordan to do anything other than protect their own borders in such a situation.
Logged
PSOL
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,164


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4476 on: December 14, 2023, 12:17:52 AM »

Egypt, the UAE, and Jordan do have the most competent militaries in the Arab world and the latter two have only had their capabilities be expanded rapidly. The UAE practically has made Southern Yemen and Somalia into client states and it has the best navy of the whole Middle East.

The Iranian military compared to the Arab States is far superior to any of them one-on-one, which in and of itself doesn’t mean much. However what that translates to are Iranian-trained organizations much more militarily capable than the other powers—Hezbollah and the Houthis come to mind—as well as supporting the survival of the Syrian Arab Republic. Syria is still wracked by internal conflict and political strife as the current government sorts itself out but it still has a capable army as the incompetent officers and generals are either removed from their positions or have been killed fighting Sunni Islamists.

As of right now, I would say any worry of a regional war is off the table. Neither Iran nor Israel—itself choosing to finish off Gaza first and foremost before it focuses on more distant targets so as to not open up a new front—wants war. Both states are perfectly content on using their intelligence services to act upon the other. War in Lebanon is less likely as that would mean tearing up the previous EEZ demarcation agreement that in effect served as a sort of peace deal of the Lebanese government with Israel. The only state that most likely risks a confrontation is Qatar whom the Arab monarchies, Egypt, and Israel despise.
Logged
Silent Hunter
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,385
United Kingdom


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4477 on: December 14, 2023, 02:25:47 AM »

Without changes of leadership on both sides, I think this conflict ultimately ends, sadly, with a mass expulsion of Palestinians from both Gaza and the West Bank.
Logged
CumbrianLefty
CumbrianLeftie
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,075
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4478 on: December 14, 2023, 06:24:37 AM »
« Edited: December 14, 2023, 06:29:05 AM by CumbrianLefty »

Without changes of leadership on both sides, I think this conflict ultimately ends, sadly, with a mass expulsion of Palestinians from both Gaza and the West Bank.

Tbh this learned helplessness is a bit tiresome. The outside world *does* have the power to prevent Israel carrying out such a monstrous and utterly evil act, and should exercise it if necessary.

And yes, that may involve helping to force Netanyahu from power.
Logged
Meclazine for Israel
Meclazine
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,092
Australia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4479 on: December 14, 2023, 07:34:15 AM »

Dismantling Hamas

https://www.instagram.com/reel/C01VdtPowku/

Another 70 Hamas terrorists captured. They are waving the white flag.
Logged
bilaps
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,789
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4480 on: December 14, 2023, 07:36:24 AM »

US now says 40-45 percent of bombs Israel used on Gaza are dumb bombs.
Logged
CumbrianLefty
CumbrianLeftie
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,075
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4481 on: December 14, 2023, 07:37:10 AM »

Fanatically pro-Israel posters here who equate that country with "Jews" really tell on themselves - and whether wittingly or otherwise, recycle a standard AS trope.
Logged
AtorBoltox
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,115


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4482 on: December 14, 2023, 07:53:43 AM »
« Edited: December 14, 2023, 08:33:17 AM by AtorBoltox »

Without changes of leadership on both sides, I think this conflict ultimately ends, sadly, with a mass expulsion of Palestinians from both Gaza and the West Bank.

Tbh this learned helplessness is a bit tiresome. The outside world *does* have the power to prevent Israel carrying out such a monstrous and utterly evil act, and should exercise it if necessary.

And yes, that may involve helping to force Netanyahu from power.
Didn't think advocating for CIA coups in sovereign nations was a thing socialists really did
Logged
Angel of Death
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,414
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4483 on: December 14, 2023, 07:54:56 AM »

Without changes of leadership on both sides, I think this conflict ultimately ends, sadly, with a mass expulsion of Palestinians from both Gaza and the West Bank.

Maybe, but not without an open war against at least Jordan and possibly Egypt.
Logged
CumbrianLefty
CumbrianLeftie
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 12,075
United Kingdom


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4484 on: December 14, 2023, 07:55:39 AM »

Do the words "*helping* to force from power" (there are many in Israel who want this, after all) have to mean any sort of CIA involvement at all?
Logged
windjammer
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,523
France


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4485 on: December 14, 2023, 09:41:10 AM »

Does anyone know what the Arabs Israelis citizens think of this conflict?
At the same time they are culturally close to the Palestinians but on the other hand they are being targeted as well but Hamas terrorist attacks.
Logged
It’s so Joever
Forumlurker161
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 15,042


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4486 on: December 14, 2023, 02:35:27 PM »

Without changes of leadership on both sides, I think this conflict ultimately ends, sadly, with a mass expulsion of Palestinians from both Gaza and the West Bank.

Tbh this learned helplessness is a bit tiresome. The outside world *does* have the power to prevent Israel carrying out such a monstrous and utterly evil act, and should exercise it if necessary.

And yes, that may involve helping to force Netanyahu from power.
Didn't think advocating for CIA coups in sovereign nations was a thing socialists really did
Wow! Socialists are not as bad as I thought then!
Logged
Horus
Sheliak5
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,969
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4487 on: December 14, 2023, 05:07:49 PM »

Steve Cohen, a key progressive ally who started off quite hawkish after 10/7, is beginning to get fed up.

Logged
Silent Hunter
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,385
United Kingdom


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4488 on: December 14, 2023, 06:06:35 PM »

I don't think that Netanyahu would have been able to do anything like what he has without Hamas handing him a casus belli on a plate.
Logged
Birdish
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 760
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4489 on: December 14, 2023, 06:11:39 PM »

Steve Cohen, a key progressive ally who started off quite hawkish after 10/7, is beginning to get fed up.



Biden's rhetoric has been getting less and less supportive over the last few weeks. It seems like once Sinwar is dead, that will be Biden's go ahead to try and put an end to all of this.
Logged
Birdish
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 760
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4490 on: December 14, 2023, 06:15:28 PM »

I don't think that Netanyahu would have been able to do anything like what he has without Hamas handing him a casus belli on a plate.

This whole thing feels like a desperate attempt to save his legacy. Netanyahu knows he's doomed in the next election because of the worst security failure in Israeli history. Might as well take out Hamas while he's still in power and be remembered for something other than letting Hamas sneak in and kill 1200 people.
Logged
Reactionary Libertarian
ReactionaryLibertarian
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,063
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4491 on: December 14, 2023, 06:38:20 PM »

Why do people think the war is from Netanyahu? The generals are at least as hawkish on Gaza, probably more, then Netanyahu. The divide between the two is in settlements.
Logged
Birdish
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 760
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4492 on: December 14, 2023, 06:53:36 PM »

Why do people think the war is from Netanyahu? The generals are at least as hawkish on Gaza, probably more, then Netanyahu. The divide between the two is in settlements.

I don't think anyone here believes that Gantz, Bennet or Lapid would have acted any differently in response to October 7th or that the generals aren't the ones choosing the targets to bomb. But after 13 years of Netanyahu, it's hard not to speculate that he has his own motives. That the only acceptable end game for him would be Hamas not only destroyed, but Gaza having been turned into a crater.
Logged
Reactionary Libertarian
ReactionaryLibertarian
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,063
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4493 on: December 14, 2023, 07:36:30 PM »
« Edited: December 14, 2023, 10:15:45 PM by Reactionary Libertarian »

Why do people think the war is from Netanyahu? The generals are at least as hawkish on Gaza, probably more, then Netanyahu. The divide between the two is in settlements.

I don't think anyone here believes that Gantz, Bennet or Lapid would have acted any differently in response to October 7th or that the generals aren't the ones choosing the targets to bomb. But after 13 years of Netanyahu, it's hard not to speculate that he has his own motives. That the only acceptable end game for him would be Hamas not only destroyed, but Gaza having been turned into a crater.

Netanyahu’s motives are to stay in power. That’s it. He’s probably more dovish on Gaza than the generals.
Logged
Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!
ModernBourbon Democrat
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,333


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4494 on: December 15, 2023, 12:42:02 AM »



Logged
Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!
ModernBourbon Democrat
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,333


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4495 on: December 15, 2023, 02:23:53 AM »

Appreciate the response, going through it section by section

Quote
IDF casualties (1-4, 9)

"Clash Report" isn't the actual source, that's just the twitter aggregator. The numbers originally came from Ynet, an Israeli news outlet, but the original article was pulled by the military censors

Fortunately an article that wasn't pulled by the censors came out at around the same time from Haaretz, and their estimates fall within the same range. The whole article is informative but some key points:

Quote
An examination conducted by Haaretz with the hospitals where the wounded soldiers have been and are treated shows a considerable and unexplained gap between the data reported by the military and that from the hospitals. The hospitals' data shows that the number of wounded soldiers to be twice as high as the army's numbers.
For example, Barzilai Medical Center in Ashkelon alone reports treating 1,949 soldiers hurt in the war since October 7 (out of 3,117 injured people treated there during the war), whereas the army reports a total of 1,593 wounded soldiers.

Quote
The gaps between the army's data and the hospitals' data also comes into sharp relief in light of Health Ministry statistics maintained on its website. This website displays general casualty data – civilians and soldiers alike. According to the Health Ministry's data, 10,548 soldiers and civilians who were wounded in the war have been admitted between October 7 and December 10.

Quote
Another obscure figure, not reported to the public, has to do with wounded security establishment personnel who do not belong to the military, and were wounded in the course of wartime duty. These personnel includes special reconnaissance fighters and members of SWAT units, the police, Border Police, Shin Bet and emergency and rescue units like Magen David Adom.

It's undeniable that the IDF is hiding casualties, the only question is how many and whether they're also hiding deaths.

Quote
Palestinian civilian casualties & Israeli military doctrine (5-6) & General Brick

Initially I would have agreed with you that the priority was protecting soldiers at any cost but there's mounting evidence that there's more to it than that.

So the Yitzhak Brick quote came from this article, specifically the summary at the very end. To be clear about the context, he was saying this over a year prior to the attacks and has since gained notoriety and fame in Israel for the accuracy of his predictions.

Gen Brick's proposed strategy was basically the exact plan you'd follow if your top priority was the lives of your citizens and soldiers above all else:

1. Negotiate an immediate "everyone for everyone" exchange right from the start. You can kidnap or assassinate ex-detainees later but this removes a huge political issue from the Israeli perspective
2. Move in and establish fortifications surrounding cities and towns, evacuate the civilians out and put them under siege. No need to engage in urban combat and take casualties or to storm prepared positions, just wait for Hamas to run out of supplies.

Yet instead the IDF is pushing into urban combat and evidently taking some pretty severe losses, which doesn't exactly match with the "every soldier's life matters" justification even if they might occasionally use that rhetoric as a shield. So what's the real explanation?

Well, the first is that the doctrine being imposed here is the Dahiya Doctrine, which justifies intentionally targeting civilian infrastructure and homes with the goal of provoking the civilians to rise up against the government. As "Mass assassination factory" puts it:

Quote
Compared to previous Israeli assaults on Gaza, the current war — which Israel has named “Operation Iron Swords,” and which began in the wake of the Hamas-led assault on southern Israel on October 7 — has seen the army significantly expand its bombing of targets that are not distinctly military in nature. These include private residences as well as public buildings, infrastructure, and high-rise blocks, which sources say the army defines as “power targets” (“matarot otzem”).

The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it.

Several of the sources, who spoke to +972 and Local Call on the condition of anonymity, confirmed that the Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza — including homes — which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. This number is calculated and known in advance to the army’s intelligence units, who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly how many civilians are certain to be killed.

Of course anyone familiar with the history of strategic bombing would know that this "strategy" has literally never worked once in history. If anything blowing up civilian infrastructure pushes them to support their regime to get revenge on the attackers. But whether it works or not isn't the point; the IDF hasn't won a ground war in decades and the excuse they've come up with is that it's because they just cared too much about collateral damage. The alternative would be to admit that the IDF just isn't very good at fighting. But blowing up apartment buildings and sewage plants is easy and comprehensive military reform is hard.

The other goal here is to satisfy the bloodlust of the Israeli public through the constant production of atrocity footage regardless of military value. I know this sounds like some crazy idea but once again, Haaretz has confirmed that the IDF is literally running a gore porn Telegram:

Quote
An October 11 post read: "Burning their mother ... You won't believe the video we got! You can hear the crunch of their bones. We'll upload it right away, get ready." Images of Palestinian captives and the bodies of terrorists were captioned "Exterminating the roaches ... exterminating the Hamas rats. ... Share this beauty." The following text accompanies a video of an Israeli soldier allegedly dipping machine gun bullets in pork fat: "What a man!!!!! Lubricates bullets with lard. You won't get your virgins." And: "Garbage juice!!!! Another dead terrorist!! You have to watch it with the sound, you'll die laughing."

Quote
The channel administrators didn't stop at images from Gaza. On October 11, hundreds of Israelis, including members of the Beitar Jerusalem soccer team's violently racist fan club La Familia, rioted at the Sheba Medical Center, Tel Hashomer, near Tel Aviv, following a rumor that Hamas terrorists who had invaded Israel were being treated there. People roamed the hospital, cursing out and spitting on medical professionals. Within an hour, a video of the riot was uploaded to 72 Virgins with the title, "My brothers, the heroesssss, La Familia fans, love you!!!!!!! What heroes, came to screw the Arabs."

The IDF was utterly humiliated on October 7th and up to this point they haven't achieved any major objectives: they haven't rescued the hostages (except dead ones), they haven't stopped Hamas from firing rockets or ambushing their forces and the top leaders of Hamas in Gaza seem to be fine despite the intense bombing campaign and ground invasion. So instead they've had to resort to PR stunts to raise the public's confidence, ranging from blowing up the Gazan parliament building and surrounding Sinwar's house to faking "mass surrenders". The clear priority isn't to protect the lives of soldiers and hostages but to project an image of victory regardless of the reality on the ground. The IDF is willing to do basically anything to project that image, even if it requires extreme collateral damage or explicit war crimes.

Quote
7.) I am not convinced about your line of "covering up Putinesque losses", since I suspect that many Israeli's are likely aware of the significant uptick on casualties (mostly WIA thus far), and are willing to accept that as a price.

Maybe, but the IDF clearly doesn't agree if they're hiding casualties instead of announcing them openly as they come out. Also if they're hiding the number of wounded then it's hardly out of the question that they're also hiding the number of fatalities.

Quote
8.) What might be a bit more damning is how many of these IDF casualties which have occurred within Gaza are from "friendly fire" incidents.

Weirdly enough this is one area where I don't think IDF incompetence is the cause.

On the one hand, Hamas used IDF uniforms on Oct 7 to launch surprise attacks and it stands to reason that they'll do the same thing on the defensive. Add in a few Hebrew speaking commandos and you have a recipe for some serious Operation Greif-style chaos in an already confusing urban combat environment. Additionally, Hamas seems to be replicating the tactics pioneered by Hezbollah in 2006: sudden, extremely close range urban ambushes where the IDF has to choose between hitting their own troops with their fire support or abandoning it entirely. As one Israeli commander put it,

Quote
“They emerged from tunnels, surrounding us, launching rocket-propelled grenades at us, and attempting to approach our armoured personnel carriers to set explosives,” said the battalion’s commander, Lt Col Tomer Greenberg, speaking to Israeli media after the engagement.

In that sort of situation it's very difficult to avoid friendly fire. There's also a less generous explanation: the Hannibal Directive, which authorizes the IDF to use deadly force against their own captives to prevent them from being used as bargaining chips. While the directive has been officially revoked there are growing indications that it has been applied more than once over the course of this war even if not by name. In the PR centric war being fought, it's hard to imagine an event more calamitous to the IDF's "image of victory" than a soldier sent to Gaza getting captured, and before any significant hostage rescue at that. In such a situation they'd rather obliterate the entire area with as much firepower as possible rather than allowing Hamas to drag fresh hostages into a tunnel to be put on camera.
Logged
Meclazine for Israel
Meclazine
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,092
Australia


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4496 on: December 15, 2023, 04:52:45 AM »

Australia says YES to the US' request for naval help with regard to the Iran-Houthi-Hamas war.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-15/naval-commander-says-australia-prepared-for-red-sea-patrol/103235194

In recent days the United States has requested dozens of nations who make up the Combined Maritime Forces to help respond to Iranian-backed Houthi rebels attacking civilian ships through the crucial sea lane.


The US request has caused some consternation within the Australian Defence Force.(Supplied: Department of Defence)
Logged
GP270watch
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,667


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4497 on: December 15, 2023, 02:15:10 PM »

IDF killed three of their own hostages after they ran out for help and were mistaken as a threat. Casualty of just going around and shooting civilians as has been reported by Arab media outlets.
Logged
MasterJedi
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 23,752
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4498 on: December 15, 2023, 02:16:18 PM »

IDF killed three of their own hostages after they ran out for help and were mistaken as a threat. Casualty of just going around and shooting civilians as has been reported by Arab media outlets.

IDF isn’t trying to rescue the hostages, they’re trying annex Gaza. It will sadly continue to happen.
Logged
Silent Hunter
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,385
United Kingdom


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #4499 on: December 15, 2023, 06:00:38 PM »

IDF killed three of their own hostages after they ran out for help and were mistaken as a threat. Casualty of just going around and shooting civilians as has been reported by Arab media outlets.

Or someone genuinely mistook them for a threat.

Israel killed four hostages at Entebbe during the rescue; they ordered all the hostages in Hebrew to stay on the floor when they stormed the terminal so they could shoot the terrorists. Three of them didn't comply and a fourth didn't speak Hebrew.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 175 176 177 178 179 [180] 181 182 183 184 185 ... 311  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.088 seconds with 10 queries.