Israel-Gaza war

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Look at the "warmth" for groups like Hamas and PIJ:



This was posted on Discord, and while it was posted by someone I trust I can't vouch for his own sources,* but if this is even remotely accurate it's yet more evidence for my belief that Israel's conduct of this war has made its (in itself richly justified) stated strategic goal slip even further away. These groups used to be almost as loathed by the Palestinian street as by the Israeli street.

*EDIT: It's from the Palestine-based research firm AWRAD.

Why are you acting surprised.

Everyone else is abandoning them and throwing them under the bus.

[Estrella]

The only ones that are defending Palestinians rn in the world is Hamas.

How are they doing it? What specific goal have they accomplished?

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

The opinions of cozy westerners is immaterial at best and more commonly actively harmful as we see in this thread. I'm still baffled that people seem to think there's any methodology that they can somehow shoe-horn a justification for Israel' brutality through.

I don't give one f!ck about a "poll" showing sympathy for Hamas. I wouldn't even outside this conflict, but I especially don't care about it, and consider it useless, during said period of heightened tension and Israel actively perpetrating war crimes. Terrorized and traumatized people aren't rational actors? Wow, I'm so surprised!

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

The problem with all the terrorist justification using things like "if a plane with a star of david dropped bombs on you for years, you'd be anti-Semitic too" is that one could use that same logic for 9/11- i.e. "if you survived 9/11, you'd be Islamophobic, too"

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

The opinions of cozy westerners is immaterial at best and more commonly actively harmful as we see in this thread. I'm still baffled that people seem to think there's any methodology that they can somehow shoe-horn a justification for Israel' brutality through.

I can only speak for myself, but that isn't at all the point I was trying to make.

[AtorBoltox]

The problem with all the terrorist justification using things like "if a plane with a star of david dropped bombs on you for years, you'd be anti-Semitic too" is that one could use that same logic for 9/11- i.e. "if you survived 9/11, you'd be Islamophobic, too"

I think the more apt comparison is in Israel itself. Support for Hamas is justified as natural because of Israel's bombing, but the same logic is never applied in reverse when it easily could be - that the rise in support for the Israeli right and increasing lack of a care for a two state solution is in response to decades of suicide bombings, stabbings, and rocket attacks from Palestinians

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

The problem with all the terrorist justification using things like "if a plane with a star of david dropped bombs on you for years, you'd be anti-Semitic too" is that one could use that same logic for 9/11- i.e. "if you survived 9/11, you'd be Islamophobic, too"

I think the more apt comparison is in Israel itself. Support for Hamas is justified as natural because of Israel's bombing, but the same logic is never applied in reverse when it easily could be - that the rise in support for the Israeli right and increasing lack of a care for a two state solution is in response to decades of suicide bombings, stabbings, and rocket attacks from Palestinians

Yeah, I don't understand why certain people (including folks on this forum) give many Palestinians a pass for supporting Hamas but don't even consider that same logic as it applies to 9/11 or Israelis.

This is frighteningly similar to the "noble savage" argument

I don't give one f!ck about a "poll" showing sympathy for Hamas. I wouldn't even outside this conflict, but I especially don't care about it, and consider it useless, during said period of heightened tension and Israel actively perpetrating war crimes. Terrorized and traumatized people aren't rational actors? Wow, I'm so surprised!

The Israelis are traumatized from 10/7, yet they don't get that pass. The only way that makes sense is if you see the rape and murder of Jewish children to be perfectly acceptable, which is something a rather unfortunate majority of the country believes.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

The opinions of cozy westerners is immaterial at best and more commonly actively harmful as we see in this thread. I'm still baffled that people seem to think there's any methodology that they can somehow shoe-horn a justification for Israel' brutality through.

I don't give one f!ck about a "poll" showing sympathy for Hamas. I wouldn't even outside this conflict, but I especially don't care about it, and consider it useless, during said period of heightened tension and Israel actively perpetrating war crimes. Terrorized and traumatized people aren't rational actors? Wow, I'm so surprised!

The glaring omission of any mention of the Hamas terrorist organization - which has controlled the government of Gaza Strip for the entire time frame depicted - is so painfully disingenuous as to destroy any other impact this might have had.

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

There is not really a single Israeli, absent those who have lost lives, who has lived a life like children in Gaza, lmao. I'm actually stunned anyone is making that argument or even thinking to compare 10/7 to a child growing up under 18+ years of war. Where's the blockade of Israel? Where's the food, water and medicine shortage? Israeli's can also leave the country WHENEVER they want.

I was actually thinking about making the opposite argument that it literally takes very little for far-right Israeli's to start calling for genocide and acting every bit as-much of barbarians as they claim all Arabs are after 50+ years of such treatment. But time + holding a position of power does a lot to quench the need for 'dominance' in people, until they realize that power is extremely tenuous in the first place. We're seeing this with the mask slipping over and over among the worst types in the Israeli government making calls for violence every bit as reminiscent of any Islamic extremist.

At some point, when you're discussing situations like this, it becomes a comparison of tragedies and that rarely leads to any sort of healthy discussion, I recognize that. But using a methodology that we hold to an extremely skeptical standard even when it's conducted in stable, modern, western countries for electoral purposes to rhetorically justify anything done against the Palestinians is absolutely ridiculous.

Hamas is anathema to everything I stand for. But do I understand, from the perspective of a terrified human, what could drive someone to view them in a different light, especially when your choice is that of 'Israeli Guns V. Hamas Guns'? I do, sorry but Vosem going on about how Palestinians should just lay down arms and 'accept their role as an instrument of the Israeli state' etc will NEVER happen and I can't think of any situation in history in which it has especially being double skeptical like I am that, that's even what Netanyahu or Ben-Gvir want in the first place.

[Vosem]

There is not really a single Israeli, absent those who have lost lives, who has lived a life like children in Gaza, lmao. I'm actually stunned anyone is making that argument or even thinking to compare 10/7 to a child growing up under 18+ years of war. Where's the blockade of Israel? Where's the food, water and medicine shortage? Israeli's can also leave the country WHENEVER they want.

Wow, sounds like someone should cause there to be a change in Gaza's government. (In fact even without getting to Hamas's goals all of this is probably enough to justify a change in Gaza's government by force, especially if it were to come from the state that should possess Gaza under international law.)

I was actually thinking about making the opposite argument that it literally takes very little for far-right Israeli's to start calling for genocide and acting every bit as-much of barbarians as they claim all Arabs are after 50+ years of such treatment. But time + holding a position of power does a lot to quench the need for 'dominance' in people, until they realize that power is extremely tenuous in the first place. We're seeing this with the mask slipping over and over among the worst types in the Israeli government making calls for violence every bit as reminiscent of any Islamic extremist.

At some point, when you're discussing situations like this, it becomes a comparison of tragedies and that rarely leads to any sort of healthy discussion, I recognize that. But using a methodology that we hold to an extremely skeptical standard even when it's conducted in stable, modern, western countries for electoral purposes to rhetorically justify anything done against the Palestinians is absolutely ridiculous.

It really should not become a comparison of tragedies; every individual life lost is already an infinite tragedy. It should be a comparison of goals and effects. It is in comparing the goals of the Israeli government with the Gazan government, and with the effects they have had on global politics, that any reasonable person not totally blinded by hatred or ignorance reaches the conclusion that Hamas -- and, more broadly, the ideology of Palestinian liberationism as it currently exists -- needs to be destroyed. It is entirely and completely indefensible by any normal argument.

That doesn't mean killing any particular individual who is not a Hamas militant. That doesn't even mean that Palestine cannot be an independent state. It means that Palestine cannot be a revanchist state; in fact no country on Earth has a right to revanchism.  

Hamas is anathema to everything I stand for. But do I understand, from the perspective of a terrified human, what could drive someone to view them in a different light, especially when your choice is that of 'Israeli Guns V. Hamas Guns'? I do, sorry but Vosem going on about how Palestinians should just lay down arms and 'accept their role as an instrument of the Israeli state' etc will NEVER happen and I can't think of any situation in history in which it has especially being double skeptical like I am that, that's even what Netanyahu or Ben-Gvir want in the first place.

There are states in Germany which outright have holidays celebrating the defeat of Nazism at the hands of the Red Army. More generally, of course countries have unconditionally surrendered before: just in American history this was the fate of the Empire of Japan and the Confederate States of America. Note that Japan still exists (and white rule in the CSA persisted for decades, too), but the proximal political goals were in fact totally abandoned. It is actually a very common pattern in history, and the reason it hasn't happened in Palestine already is because of the grotesque spectacle of international support for fascism there.

For this to happen it is not just the case that Hamas has to be beaten hard, but it has to be the case that the next government sees it as advantageous to itself to instill that it was good (or, at the very least, unavoidable) that Palestine lost and that the goals of liberationism should be abandoned. But I don't really think this will happen until foreign support completely evaporates and entities like the UNRWA which keep Palestinian liberationism alive cease to exist.

[Meclazine for Israel]

An amazing story of survival for one of the freed hostages, Ron Krivoi, a dual Israeli-Russian citizen.

https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-775321


Ron Krivoi (Facebook)

Ron was taken from the music festival where he was working (?) as a D.J.

During his captivity on the Gaza Strip, an Israeli missile struck the building he was in and it partially collapsed. After the event, he managed to escape his captors.

In something resembling a movie script according to his Aunty, Ron was hiding in the Gaza Strip alone for a few days.

"He tried getting to the border. He did not have the capacity to understand where he was and where he needed to go, so he could not navigate the open field. He was alone," his Aunty Magid added.

He was later identified by Palestinians and returned to Hamas.

The Israeli hostages have been simply incredible to survive 50 days kidnapped by Islamic terrorists.

I am so happy theses people are starting to be released back to their families and loved ones. It brings home the reality of what actually happened on October 7.

A huge PR win for Israel, especially when the President of the United States tells the story of Israel's youngest kidnappee.

[Beet]

The MSM is doing what it typically does which is names, smiling faces, ages, and emotion laden stories of individual Israeli hostages freed, not a single one of Palestinian prisoners freed, just numbers in passing. If I hadn't been blackpilled on the MSM already from Covid this would have done it.

[CumbrianLefty]

The problem with all the terrorist justification using things like "if a plane with a star of david dropped bombs on you for years, you'd be anti-Semitic too" is that one could use that same logic for 9/11- i.e. "if you survived 9/11, you'd be Islamophobic, too"

Well, to a significant degree that happened. And most will agree its not terribly good that it did.

[AtorBoltox]

The MSM is doing what it typically does which is names, smiling faces, ages, and emotion laden stories of individual Israeli hostages freed, not a single one of Palestinian prisoners freed, just numbers in passing. If I hadn't been blackpilled on the MSM already from Covid this would have done it.

Given what some of them were imprisoned for, reporting on the the individual stories of the Palestinian prisoners would only turn the west more in favour of Israel. I don't think you've really thought this idea through

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

The MSM is doing what it typically does which is names, smiling faces, ages, and emotion laden stories of individual Israeli hostages freed, not a single one of Palestinian prisoners freed, just numbers in passing. If I hadn't been blackpilled on the MSM already from Covid this would have done it.

You literally support the normalization of relations with NORTH KOREA with minimal concessions. You are in no position to lecture any of us on human rights.

And if the media is so biased against Palestine, how come everyone supports Palestine?

[Meclazine for Israel]

Elon Musk visits Kfar Aza Kibbutz with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu

Elon Musk

https://youtu.be/6nWwzR-I0iw

[Vosem]

The MSM is doing what it typically does which is names, smiling faces, ages, and emotion laden stories of individual Israeli hostages freed, not a single one of Palestinian prisoners freed, just numbers in passing. If I hadn't been blackpilled on the MSM already from Covid this would have done it.

I agree. There should be more coverage of the Palestinian prisoners released. If I weren't already blackpilled on the MSM, this would have done it.

[DavidB.]

The MSM is doing what it typically does which is names, smiling faces, ages, and emotion laden stories of individual Israeli hostages freed, not a single one of Palestinian prisoners freed, just numbers in passing.

I agree, please let them tell the stories of these Palestinian prisoners. Please let them do so. Pretty sure the effect wouldn't be to your liking though - the crimes they committed were horrific.

[Meclazine for Israel]

The MSM is doing what it typically does which is names, smiling faces, ages, and emotion laden stories of individual Israeli hostages freed, not a single one of Palestinian prisoners freed, just numbers in passing. If I hadn't been blackpilled on the MSM already from Covid this would have done it.

I agree. There should be more coverage of the Palestinian prisoners released. If I weren't already blackpilled on the MSM, this would have done it.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/

You won't find the words "Israeli Hostages" in any of their news titles.

[jamestroll]

Look at the "warmth" for groups like Hamas and PIJ:



This was posted on Discord, and while it was posted by someone I trust I can't vouch for his own sources,* but if this is even remotely accurate it's yet more evidence for my belief that Israel's conduct of this war has made its (in itself richly justified) stated strategic goal slip even further away. These groups used to be almost as loathed by the Palestinian street as by the Israeli street.

*EDIT: It's from the Palestine-based research firm AWRAD.

Why are you acting surprised.

The only ones that are defending Palestinians rn in the world is Hamas.

Everyone else is abandoning them and throwing them under the bus.

Obviously Palestinians will side with Hamas.

I have know a lot of people who HATE Hamas and are defending Palestinians based on nuances and circumstances. Your truly included.

[afleitch]

Laki, it sounds like something is lost in translation perhaps but it is inaccurate to suggest only Hamas are defending Palestinians

[Lief 🗽]

The MSM is doing what it typically does which is names, smiling faces, ages, and emotion laden stories of individual Israeli hostages freed, not a single one of Palestinian prisoners freed, just numbers in passing. If I hadn't been blackpilled on the MSM already from Covid this would have done it.

I agree. There should be more coverage of the Palestinian prisoners released. If I weren't already blackpilled on the MSM, this would have done it.

A lot of people owe you formal, written apologies for disputing your obviously correct “the western media is biased against Israel” takes.

https://twitter.com/aghamilton29/status/1728821690866811049?s=46&t=o2RmfeV6y...

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

The MSM is doing what it typically does which is names, smiling faces, ages, and emotion laden stories of individual Israeli hostages freed, not a single one of Palestinian prisoners freed, just numbers in passing. If I hadn't been blackpilled on the MSM already from Covid this would have done it.

Given what some of them were imprisoned for, reporting on the the individual stories of the Palestinian prisoners would only turn the west more in favour of Israel. I don't think you've really thought this idea through

Mississppi prisons in 1920 were full of black men accused of the most heinous of crimes (never mind the ones who didn't make it to the prisons) but they sure weren't convicted in a fair trial by a jury of their peers.

But yes, if reporters are completely uncritical and treat every accused Palestinian child detained based solely on the testimony of some murderous settler-soldier and then held for years under "administrative detention" without trial as guilty then perhaps ignorant American Boomers would become even more pro-Israel.

That says more about the context the media provides than the reality, though.

The only ones that are defending Palestinians rn in the world is Hamas.

How are they doing it? What specific goal have they accomplished?

In politics you almost always have to choose the lesser evil, so let's compare with what Fatah achieved through "negotiation and collaboration".

Prior to October 7th the stalwart leadership of the PA was totally impotent at preventing both Israeli soldiers and settlers from abusing their citizens in their own territory, seizing their homes, filling their wells with concrete, attacking them or even shooting them dead with minimal repercussions. Their main achievement was creating a small elite collaborator class that can live comfortably and send their kids to American universities.

They tried non-violent protest in 2018 and the "world's most humane army" responded by shooting hundreds with live ammunition. None of the great humanitarians of this thread who were so quick to denounce Hamas cared because Palestinians getting slaughtered isn't newsworthy. Israelis could even release merchandise celebrating the great victory over the wheelchair-bound and pregnant women with charming slogans like "1 shot 2 kills"

https://twitter.com/real1maria/status/1723769647839805841

The most murderous elements of Israeli politics continued to grow in power and influence while that of the peaceniks waned to the point where would-be SS enforcers like Ben-Gvir occupy the highest positions in the government. At the same time, the Arab states began normalizing relations with Israel without conditions regarding the Palestinians. Given time and economic integration a future Israeli PM far nastier than Netanyahu could eventually dispossess the Palestinians entirely by making their lives unlivable and pushing them into the now economically dependent neighbouring countries. The Palestinian cause was doomed if things had continued down that path without disruption.

Hamas's attack and the subsequent IDF response flipped the table. The slaughter of Israeli citizens instantly brought the eyes of the world onto the conflict in a way that the one sided slaughter of Palestinians couldn't, and while those eyes were still transfixed the IDF indiscriminately bombed Gaza and produced horrific destruction that instantly became free propaganda for Hamas. Suddenly countries which previously moved towards normalization came under massive internal pressure and started changing their tune. More than ever younger generations in the West view Israel as an illegitimate regime a-la Rhodesia instead of "our greatest ally". The international pressure for an equitable settlement is stronger than ever and for once time seems to be on the side of the Palestinian cause.

Is Hamas a murderous terrorist organization guilty of countless crimes? Are they totally corrupt and unfit to govern? Absolutely. But when the binary choice is surrender and submit to a future of a boot on your face forever or armed resistance with Hamas then anyone that doesn't have a kid at Princeton or a job with the PA is going to prefer the latter.

It's kind of crazy to me how incapable so many people are of putting themselves in the shoes of the Palestinians. If Americans were subject to the same conditions they'd support the violent religious fanatics of American Hamas over the pathetic collaborators of American Fatah any day of the week.

So my question in return is: what's the alternative from the Palestinian perspective? Should they have tried getting shot trying to protest peacefully again only to get ignored again? Everyone is so quick to say that Israel has a right to defend itself. Do Palestinians have a right to defend themselves, or is their obligation to roll over and die so they can be perfect virtuous victims for useless liberals to feel bad about?

[Vosem]

They tried non-violent protest in 2018 and the "world's most humane army" responded by shooting hundreds with live ammunition. None of the great humanitarians of this thread who were so quick to denounce Hamas cared because Palestinians getting slaughtered isn't newsworthy.

It is extremely widely reported that the purpose of those protests was infiltration to carry out an attack much like the one that happened, uh, a month ago. There were certain people who didn't believe this at the time, but the skepticism after October 7 actually happened feels utterly insane. In spite of that, Israel used tactics meant to minimize the number of casualties, even though the purpose of those was a military attack.

Yes, we are meant to believe that armed groups in authoritarian regimes which decide to approach tightly controlled borders in an organized way are "peaceful protestors". This was not a credible thing to claim in 2018-2019 and it is an even less credible thing to claim now.

Anyway, assuming that you are calling me out as a "great humanitarian", I defended it at the time. ("Celebrated" is too strong a word -- wars shouldn't be celebrated -- but I was certainly happy that Israel did not permit international pressure to change their policies. They should never do this until there is no international support for Palestinian liberationism.) I have also continued to defend it in this thread; I can go find the post if you want.

It's kind of crazy to me how incapable so many people are of putting themselves in the shoes of the Palestinians. If Americans were subject to the same conditions they'd support the violent religious fanatics of American Hamas over the pathetic collaborators of American Fatah any day of the week.

So my question in return is: what's the alternative from the Palestinian perspective? Should they have tried getting shot trying to protest peacefully again only to get ignored again? Everyone is so quick to say that Israel has a right to defend itself. Do Palestinians have a right to defend themselves, or is their obligation to roll over and die so they can be perfect virtuous victims for useless liberals to feel bad about?

There are two alternatives: either demanding Israeli citizenship with "one man one vote", or demanding a Palestinian state but agreeing not to attack their neighbors. This would require new leadership. The latter is what most Israelis would prefer per polling going back decades, but the former is also acceptable. That means actual non-violent protests, not attacks on border guards, and it means an actual end to political movements whose goal is genocide. The reason there has not been peace is that OMOV, leaving a Jewish majority in place, is unacceptable for eliminationists, and there are no Palestinian political movements which do not call for genocide. If neither of these things are done, then no solution exists except occupation for the foreseeable future; Israel does not have to be the occupier and room exists to discuss whether it is the best option, but someone does.

Do not tell me I cannot put myself in the shoes of the Palestinians. I grew up in a household where my great-grandfather lived under occupation for 3 years, and in fact supported a state -- the Soviet Union -- which was actively bombing the territory where he lived, although this put himself and his comrades at very great risk. This is because the Nazi government had to be annihilated by whatever means were necessary. (Note that the Soviet government had earlier deliberately engineered a famine in which he had relatives who died. There were individuals in his partisan group who belonged to ethnicities which had been deliberately targeted by manmade famines. It was still not a hard choice).

Gazans in this war, like the rest of the world, should be rooting for Israel to win as completely and decisively as possible, so that Hamas and any organizations which have tolerated it are destroyed*, and then the world and the Palestinians will be free from Hamas. I understand someone who is trying to protect their family, and for that matter I understand someone who dreams of an independent Palestinian state, but at the same time I have absolutely no respect for someone, including in Gaza, who does not deeply hope that Palestinian liberationism as it currently exists is annihilated. This is not a "both sides" issue; there is a side clearly in the wrong and its patterns should cease to exist.

*Yes, I am aware that this includes Israeli ones.

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

They tried non-violent protest in 2018 and the "world's most humane army" responded by shooting hundreds with live ammunition. None of the great humanitarians of this thread who were so quick to denounce Hamas cared because Palestinians getting slaughtered isn't newsworthy.

It is extremely widely reported that the purpose of those protests was infiltration to carry out an attack much like the one that happened, uh, a month ago. There were certain people who didn't believe this at the time, but the skepticism after October 7 actually happened feels utterly insane. In spite of that, Israel used tactics meant to minimize the number of casualties, even though the purpose of those was a military attack.

What's insane is taking anything the Israelis claim at face value after they've been exposed constantly lying and creating BS justifications whenever they commit atrocities. Literally every murderous regime ever has some half baked justification based on security. The CCP said that the Tiananmen Square protesters were planning to violently overthrow the government to reimpose Maoism. Was Shireen Abu Akleh plotting a terrorist attack too?

If Hamas wanted to launch a military attack they wouldn't send the pregnant women and wheelchair users to the front while drawing as much attention as possible, they'd stay quiet and attack when it was least expected. You know, like how they actually executed October 7th instead of the fantasy scenario Israel defenders created in their heads to justify sniping protesters. It's pretty ironic that you're using the latter as a justification for the former though, since if the Great March of Return had actually provoked some sort of reckoning for the Israelis and a viable diplomatic solution then the October 7th attack wouldn't have happened.

There are two alternatives: either demanding Israeli citizenship with "one man one vote", or demanding a Palestinian state but agreeing not to attack their neighbors. This would require new leadership. The latter is what most Israelis would prefer per polling going back decades, but the former is also acceptable. That means actual non-violent protests, not attacks on border guards, and it means an actual end to political movements whose goal is genocide. The reason there has not been peace is that OMOV, leaving a Jewish majority in place, is unacceptable for eliminationists, and there are no Palestinian political movements which do not call for genocide. If neither of these things are done, then no solution exists except occupation for the foreseeable future; Israel does not have to be the occupier and room exists to discuss whether it is the best option, but someone does.

So the solution is "actual non-violent protests", whatever that means. The first problem is that regardless of how "actually peaceful" the protest is, the Israelis will claim it's a cover for violent action and Western dupes will unquestioningly believe whatever they say. The second is that Western Israel supporters don't consider Palestinian lives to matter. If the people getting thrown out of their homes or brutally executed by settlers don't provoke any reaction then why should "actual non-violent protesters" getting shot again provoke any stronger of a reaction? Incidentally, your claim that the Palestinian movements only accept genocide is just completely wrong. Hamas has indicated more than once that they'd be open to a two state solution along the 1967 borders and the even more hardline Palestinian Islamic Jihad has implicitly backed the secular one state solution:

We are the indigenous people of the land. I was born in Gaza. My family, brothers and sisters, live in Gaza. But I am not allowed to visit them. But any American or Siberian Jew is allowed to take our land. There is no possibility today of a two-state solution. That idea is dead. And there is no real prospect of a one-state solution...

I will never, under any conditions, accept the existence of the state of Israel. I have no problem living with the Jewish people...

We have lived together in peace for centuries. And if Netanyahu were to ask if we can live together in one state, I would say to him: "If we have exactly the same rights as Jews to come to all of Palestine. If Khaled Meshaal and Ramadan Shalah can come whenever they want, and visit Haifa, and buy a home in Herzliyah if they want, then we can have a new language, and dialogue is possible."

That certainly sounds less genocidal than half of Netanyahu's cabinet.

Do not tell me I cannot put myself in the shoes of the Palestinians. I grew up in a household where my great-grandfather lived under occupation for 3 years, and in fact supported a state -- the Soviet Union -- which was actively bombing the territory where he lived, although this put himself and his comrades at very great risk. This is because the Nazi government had to be annihilated by whatever means were necessary. (Note that the Soviet government had earlier deliberately engineered a famine in which he had relatives who died. There were individuals in his partisan group who belonged to ethnicities which had been deliberately targeted by manmade famines. It was still not a hard choice).

It's not a hard choice for the Palestinians to choose between the murderous ethnostate that considers its victims to be lower than animals and the primary force resisting them, that's why 90% of Russians preferred Stalin to Hitler and why 90% of Palestinians prefer the Al-Qassam Brigades to the IDF. Israel fits the jackboot far more comfortably and they're even led by the intellectual descendants of people who praised Mussolini and collaborated with the Nazis.

I also find it odd that someone with family from the Soviet Union would keep bringing up Israel's vast bureaucracy supposedly dedicated to reducing civilian casualties as though that's evidence of anything. The Soviet Union's "People's Commissariat of Justice" was ostensibly supposed to provide justice but if a political dissident wound up in their hands they'd be tortured until they confessed to crimes they didn't commit. The vast bureaucracy's purpose was not providing justice but providing cover for the regime. The IDF doesn't care about reducing civilian casualties as much as possible, they care about convincing Westerners that they care about reducing civilian casualties and that they should continue to receive billions in funding plus unconditional military protection. Unlike Nazi Germany, Israel is a small country dependent on foreign goodwill for their continued prosperity so they need to at least pretend to be adhering to international law.