Israel-Gaza war

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

Ok guys

Let's acknowledge the elephant in the room in regards to this war:

Whether this restaurant is still even open at all

https://www.timesofisrael.com/gaza-eatery-offers-discounts-to-north-koreans-if-they-ever-arrive/



Photo credit:

^{https://www.alamy.com/stock-image-jabalia-gaza-strip-palestinian-territory-15th-dec-2017-a-palestinian-168820721.html}

[Indy Texas 🇺🇦🇵🇸]

What is going to be the future of Gaza and Hamas ?

Officially: TBD

If Hamas had any brains they'd announce their leadership will exit Gaza and they agree for their government apparatus to be subsumed by the PA. that will give them at least de facto control in various parts of Gaza

I don't think people understand how much bad blood there is there.

It's like thinking the Contras would agree for their government apparatus to be subsumed by the Sandinistas or something.

If the PA/Fatah were allowed into Gaza and given run of the place, they'd straight up start imprisoning/executing everybody tangentially connected with the group. (And Hamas would do precisely the same thing in the West Bank if they were given wherewithal to.)

[windjammer]

What is going to be the future of Gaza and Hamas ?

Officially: TBD

If Hamas had any brains they'd announce their leadership will exit Gaza and they agree for their government apparatus to be subsumed by the PA. that will give them at least de facto control in various parts of Gaza

I don't think people understand how much bad blood there is there.

It's like thinking the Contras would agree for their government apparatus to be subsumed by the Sandinistas or something.

If the PA/Fatah were allowed into Gaza and given run of the place, they'd straight up start imprisoning/executing everybody tangentially connected with the group. (And Hamas would do precisely the same thing in the West Bank if they were given wherewithal to.)

So let's give Gaza to Fatah then if that means they will kill all Hamas leaders?

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

I suppose the most optimistic scenario is that hamas' control is as superficial as isis's was of mosul; and that everybody in gaza have hated their guts for years and even give them some of the blame for the carnage. Then you could indeed reintroduce PA authority over Gaza, although god knows what could happen then.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Hamastan Falling To Pieces

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CzeMJF9tmhr/

Looks like refugees trying to leave Hospital grounds.

Reminiscent of the fall of Nazi Germany. The leaders in underground bunkers. Gaza City closing from two directions.

Would German soldiers have prevented the movement of civilians away from a war zone in Berlin like this?

Hopefully this will all be over quickly.

[Secretary of State Liberal Hack]

I suppose the most optimistic scenario is that hamas' control is as superficial as isis's was of mosul; and that everybody in gaza have hated their guts for years and even give them some of the blame for the carnage. Then you could indeed reintroduce PA authority over Gaza, although god knows what could happen then.

The PA has effectively no legitimacy left among t Palestinian population because it functions as a kleptocratic puppet state.

Also on another note it's kind of amazing the vile stuff Israeli settlement leaders will say while being interviewed.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

[Lief 🗽]

I suppose the most optimistic scenario is that hamas' control is as superficial as isis's was of mosul; and that everybody in gaza have hated their guts for years and even give them some of the blame for the carnage. Then you could indeed reintroduce PA authority over Gaza, although god knows what could happen then.

The PA s effectively no legitimacy left among t Palestinian population because it functions as a kleptocratic puppet state.

Also on another note it's kind of amazing the vile stuff Israeli settlement leaders will say while being interviewed.

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-extreme-ambitions-of-west-bank-settlers

What are the borders of that Jewish nation?

The borders of the homeland of the Jews are the Euphrates in the east and the Nile in the southwest.

what

[NOVA Green]

What is going to be the future of Gaza and Hamas ?

Officially: TBD

If Hamas had any brains they'd announce their leadership will exit Gaza and they agree for their government apparatus to be subsumed by the PA. that will give them at least de facto control in various parts of Gaza

I don't think people understand how much bad blood there is there.

It's like thinking the Contras would agree for their government apparatus to be subsumed by the Sandinistas or something.

If the PA/Fatah were allowed into Gaza and given run of the place, they'd straight up start imprisoning/executing everybody tangentially connected with the group. (And Hamas would do precisely the same thing in the West Bank if they were given wherewithal to.)

So let's give Gaza to Fatah then if that means they will kill all Hamas leaders?

If the PA were to become the de facto Palestinian government of Gaza, they would likely replace all of the Hamas Government Civil Servants with Fatah Civil Civil Servants getting the cushiest jobs.

Don't remember exactly how many Fatah Civil Servants in Gaza are still getting paid to "not go to work", after Hamas stacked the deck with Party loyalists.

Still, despite the brutal treatment which much of Fatah experienced when Hamas first took control over Gaza, I doubt that there would be much revenge left, especially considering that wealthy Gulf Oil kingdoms will likely be offering Billions of $$$ for rebuilding, with Qatar at the head of reconstruction.

[Vosem]

https://twitter.com/Bugs_Meany/status/1723101449549230213

[Meclazine for Israel]

https://twitter.com/Bugs_Meany/status/1723101449549230213

They got 200,000 people to chant their slogans in protests in London and New York, so Gaza and Iran have the best PR departments going in 2023.

[NOVA Green]

Iran and Saudi Arabia are starting to become increasingly close after the events of 10/7/23 and subsequent Israeli military response.

Needless to say, this is not at all the direction that the US was looking towards when it came to the Abraham Accords and trying to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons.

The leaders of Iran and Saudi Arabia, regional rivals who restored diplomatic ties this year, met in Riyadh on Saturday at a summit where they called for an immediate cease-fire in Gaza and unconditional delivery of humanitarian aid to the enclave, which Israeli forces have besieged since the Oct. 7 Hamas attacks.

The two Islamic countries, who support opposing factions in proxy conflicts across the region, first announced their diplomatic breakthrough in March, after years of hostility, in a deal brokered by China. But it was unclear whether the shift would lead to a lasting détente between Saudi Arabia’s Sunni monarchy and Iran’s Shiite government.

President Ebrahim Raisi of Iran, whose visit to Saudi Arabia was the first by an Iranian president to the kingdom in more than a decade, was greeted at the summit venue by Saudi Arabia’s de facto ruler, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. The Iranian president draped on his shoulder a kaffiyeh, the black and white square checkered scarf that has become a badge of Palestinian identity.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/11/world/middleeast/iran-saudi-arabia-gaza-cease-fire.html

[Koharu]

From Doctors Without Borders (MSF):

Over the past 24 hours, hospitals in Gaza have been under relentless bombardment. Al-Shifa hospital complex, the biggest health facility where MSF staff are still working, has been hit several times, including the maternity and outpatient departments, resulting in multiple deaths and injuries. The hostilities around the hospital have not stopped. Doctors Without Borders/Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) teams and hundreds of patients are still inside Al-Shifa hospital.

Al-Shifa hospital is the principal hospital complex in Gaza Strip, with 700 beds, providing emergency and surgical care. There are currently no other facilities in the Strip able to admit and treat as many patients with complex, sometimes life-threatening injuries. Despite regular attacks and shortages, the staff has managed to keep the hospital operational. Yesterday, Al-Shifa hospital lost electrical power. The ambulances can no longer move to collect the injured, and non-stop bombardment prevents patients and staff from evacuating. At the time of writing, our staff are witnessing people being shot at as they attempt to flee the hospital.

Gaza: Patients and medical staff trapped in hospitals under fire

[NOVA Green]

Needless to say the optics are not good on this story for the IDF...

Thank goodness that Israel is still a Democracy (Despite certain internal forces who wish otherwise) and at least they have not shut down media outlets that present true stories which might reflect negatively on the conduct of certain IDF soldiers.

Since the outbreak of the Gaza war, more and more soldiers have filmed themselves beating and humiliating Palestinian detainees and then posted the videos on their social media accounts. The phenomenon existed before the war but has grown a lot since the Hamas massacre of Israelis on October 7.

Haaretz has collected 15 such videos uploaded over the past month. The Israel Defense Forces confirmed that at least five of them were filmed since the start of the current conflict. The others, a spokesman said, were still being investigated and that it is working to address the problem.

The Palestinians appearing in the videos are typically handcuffed and blindfolded; in some cases, they appear undressed or partially dressed. In some of the videos, soldiers are seen beating and cursing the detainees; in others, they force them to say things or act in a humiliating fashion.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-11-09/ty-article-magazine/.premium/growing-number-of-idf-soldiers-are-documenting-and-posting-their-own-abuse-of-palestinians/0000018b-ae60-dea2-a9bf-fefe96070000

[Hnv1]

What is going to be the future of Gaza and Hamas ?

Officially: TBD

If Hamas had any brains they'd announce their leadership will exit Gaza and they agree for their government apparatus to be subsumed by the PA. that will give them at least de facto control in various parts of Gaza

I don't think people understand how much bad blood there is there.

It's like thinking the Contras would agree for their government apparatus to be subsumed by the Sandinistas or something.

If the PA/Fatah were allowed into Gaza and given run of the place, they'd straight up start imprisoning/executing everybody tangentially connected with the group. (And Hamas would do precisely the same thing in the West Bank if they were given wherewithal to.)

Are you aware that the PA still runs large parts of the public sector in Gaza?

The defence apparatus of the PA can enter with some strongman a the top. He'll be harsh and corrupt, but it won't be any different than how they act in the West Bank.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Have you ever heard the word 'Hospitals' in the media so much?

But not one word of Hamas militants using the Hospitals as bases.

https://edition.cnn.com/2023/11/11/middleeast/gaza-al-shifa-hospital-israel-attack/index.html

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2023/11/12/israel-gaza-war-live-israeli-army-surrounding-al-quds-hospital

Why don't they just move away from the Gaza Hospitals and actually use the ambulances to move patients south?

I am sure Egypt and Jordan would be happy to help. Given how hard Hamas are pumping their media buddies for help, the tunnels under the Hospitals might be their last hurrah.

In response, Israel have offered to take any sick children from the Hospital into their care or transport them to an area where assistance can be provided in the South.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-11-12/israel-gaza-war-latest-updates-al-shifa-hospital-video/103094596

[GeneralMacArthur]

Oh hey, what's up?  Did I miss anything?

One opinion I'd like to throw out there is that it's absolute military malpractice that Israel isn't releasing the following video:

Two soldiers are standing next to each other at the entrance to a tunnel.  One enters the tunnel while the other starts walking straight forward.  They walk at the same pace, one guy following the tunnel, the other walking above ground.  Maybe you even have them both display GPS coordinates to show that they are in the same geographic location (guy 1 is just several dozen feet underground below guy 2).

Guy 1 is filming all the military infrastructure Hamas has in the tunnels.  Guy 2 is filming all the civilian infrastructure built above those tunnels.  Ideally the video would end with the dramatic moment of Guy 1 entering an obvious Hamas weapons depot or command center, at the same time Guy 2 arrives at a hospital.

Of course it would be much easier to just show someone walking into a hospital, opening up the secret hatch to the Hamas tunnel, and dropping down.  But to my understanding, contrary to most people's envisioning of what "Hamas base under a hospital" means, that's not actually how it works.  How it works is they have tunnel entrances several blocks away, and the tunnels run entirely underground, leading to the Hamas base built deep under the hospital, but with no direct access from the hospital itself.

Surely this video is already possible to make since there are areas of the city Israel has already secured and sections of the tunnel network they have already cleared?  I realize they are afraid of traps and mines in the tunnels.  But I feel like there are a great number of people who simply do not believe the Israeli claims that Hamas is building their bases under hospitals.

It feels like at least 50% of the Hamas sympathy stories coming out of the conflict have been hospital stories.  Israel cut power to a hospital, or bombed a hospital, or shot at a hospital, or besieged a hospital.  And the IDF will say, there was a Hamas base under that hospital.  And people just won't believe them.  It seems like this is somewhere Israel is really losing the public relations war, and just this one video would be a major weapon in their arsenal in that regard.

Maybe Israel thinks public relations aren't that important (certainly Bibi allowing the most extreme right-wing lunatics in his coalition to go on camera and say words is indicative of this, not to mention turning their nation's Twitter account into the Likud equivalent of @GOPWarRoom) but ultimately Israel will not be able to successfully fight this war if the entire world unites against them, and that is eventually going to happen if overwhelming public pressure builds up.  Even the Biden Administration has gotten wishy-washy and started talking about "timetables" and "lines in the sand" and things like that.

[GeneralMacArthur]

On a related note is there any way that Israel can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Hamas is shooting their own people to keep them in dangerous areas to act as human shields?

I mean if you had that, say video footage of Hamas militants firing at Palestinians trying to exit a hospital or something, it would just be overwhelming.  It inarguably proves everything Israel has been saying.  Why else would Hamas shoot their own people except to prevent them from leaving?  Why would Hamas want to prevent people from leaving other than to use them as human shields?  And where were the people trying to leave from... could it be Al-Shifa hospital and other hospitals Hamas uses to cover their command bases?

But the problem is, all we have are vague reports of people being shot at, and cell-phone videos that just have the sound of gunfire and don't have footage of the shooter at all, much less enough detail to prove that the shooter is a Hamas militant.

This lets Hamas turn around and say, look here is a video of the IDF shooting innocent civilians.  And people will believe it.  Maybe Israel really is just a bunch of genocidal maniacs itching to do another My Lai Massacre and shooting at any civilians they can get in their sights.  Or maybe the IDF told those civilians to stay, and when they tried to leave, the IDF shot at them to frighten them back inside.  Either way nobody who is already anti-IDF is going to believe the IDF's story that it's Hamas doing the shooting without solid evidence.

But if they did believe IDF's story, that would surely cause the whole house of cards to tumble?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

On a related note is there any way that Israel can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Hamas is shooting their own people to keep them in dangerous areas to act as human shields?

I mean if you had that, say video footage of Hamas militants firing at Palestinians trying to exit a hospital or something, it would just be overwhelming.  It inarguably proves everything Israel has been saying.  Why else would Hamas shoot their own people except to prevent them from leaving?  Why would Hamas want to prevent people from leaving other than to use them as human shields?  And where were the people trying to leave from... could it be Al-Shifa hospital and other hospitals Hamas uses to cover their command bases?

But the problem is, all we have are vague reports of people being shot at, and cell-phone videos that just have the sound of gunfire and don't have footage of the shooter at all, much less enough detail to prove that the shooter is a Hamas militant.

This lets Hamas turn around and say, look here is a video of the IDF shooting innocent civilians.  And people will believe it.  Maybe Israel really is just a bunch of genocidal maniacs itching to do another My Lai Massacre and shooting at any civilians they can get in their sights.  Or maybe the IDF told those civilians to stay, and when they tried to leave, the IDF shot at them to frighten them back inside.  Either way nobody who is already anti-IDF is going to believe the IDF's story that it's Hamas doing the shooting without solid evidence.

But if they did believe IDF's story, that would surely cause the whole house of cards to tumble?

If Israel turned on power and internet in Gaza, it would help to get more reporting there.

[heatcharger]

Oh hey, what's up?  Did I miss anything?

One opinion I'd like to throw out there is that it's absolute military malpractice that Israel isn't releasing the following video:

Two soldiers are standing next to each other at the entrance to a tunnel.  One enters the tunnel while the other starts walking straight forward.  They walk at the same pace, one guy following the tunnel, the other walking above ground.  Maybe you even have them both display GPS coordinates to show that they are in the same geographic location (guy 1 is just several dozen feet underground below guy 2).

Guy 1 is filming all the military infrastructure Hamas has in the tunnels.  Guy 2 is filming all the civilian infrastructure built above those tunnels.  Ideally the video would end with the dramatic moment of Guy 1 entering an obvious Hamas weapons depot or command center, at the same time Guy 2 arrives at a hospital.

Of course it would be much easier to just show someone walking into a hospital, opening up the secret hatch to the Hamas tunnel, and dropping down.  But to my understanding, contrary to most people's envisioning of what "Hamas base under a hospital" means, that's not actually how it works.  How it works is they have tunnel entrances several blocks away, and the tunnels run entirely underground, leading to the Hamas base built deep under the hospital, but with no direct access from the hospital itself.

Surely this video is already possible to make since there are areas of the city Israel has already secured and sections of the tunnel network they have already cleared?  I realize they are afraid of traps and mines in the tunnels.  But I feel like there are a great number of people who simply do not believe the Israeli claims that Hamas is building their bases under hospitals.

It feels like at least 50% of the Hamas sympathy stories coming out of the conflict have been hospital stories.  Israel cut power to a hospital, or bombed a hospital, or shot at a hospital, or besieged a hospital.  And the IDF will say, there was a Hamas base under that hospital.  And people just won't believe them.  It seems like this is somewhere Israel is really losing the public relations war, and just this one video would be a major weapon in their arsenal in that regard.

Maybe Israel thinks public relations aren't that important (certainly Bibi allowing the most extreme right-wing lunatics in his coalition to go on camera and say words is indicative of this, not to mention turning their nation's Twitter account into the Likud equivalent of @GOPWarRoom) but ultimately Israel will not be able to successfully fight this war if the entire world unites against them, and that is eventually going to happen if overwhelming public pressure builds up.  Even the Biden Administration has gotten wishy-washy and started talking about "timetables" and "lines in the sand" and things like that.

Respect for not making a weird “I have Returned” thread and just jumping right back into the arena.

[Meclazine for Israel]

On a related note is there any way that Israel can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Hamas is shooting their own people to keep them in dangerous areas to act as human shields?

Welcome back GMac. Good to see you on the forum again.

The iDF will interview Gazan's and publish these shortly. It feels like the civilians will be more than willing to speak once Hamas are destroyed.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Muslim Double Standards

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Czgski7MWkj/

It helps explain why Egypt and Jordan are barely lifting a finger to help.

Egyptians in particular will be under pressure if Israel push this poo barrage further south.

[Hnv1]

On a related note is there any way that Israel can prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Hamas is shooting their own people to keep them in dangerous areas to act as human shields?

I mean if you had that, say video footage of Hamas militants firing at Palestinians trying to exit a hospital or something, it would just be overwhelming.  It inarguably proves everything Israel has been saying.  Why else would Hamas shoot their own people except to prevent them from leaving?  Why would Hamas want to prevent people from leaving other than to use them as human shields?  And where were the people trying to leave from... could it be Al-Shifa hospital and other hospitals Hamas uses to cover their command bases?

But the problem is, all we have are vague reports of people being shot at, and cell-phone videos that just have the sound of gunfire and don't have footage of the shooter at all, much less enough detail to prove that the shooter is a Hamas militant.

This lets Hamas turn around and say, look here is a video of the IDF shooting innocent civilians.  And people will believe it.  Maybe Israel really is just a bunch of genocidal maniacs itching to do another My Lai Massacre and shooting at any civilians they can get in their sights.  Or maybe the IDF told those civilians to stay, and when they tried to leave, the IDF shot at them to frighten them back inside.  Either way nobody who is already anti-IDF is going to believe the IDF's story that it's Hamas doing the shooting without solid evidence.

But if they did believe IDF's story, that would surely cause the whole house of cards to tumble?

If Israel turned on power and internet in Gaza, it would help to get more reporting there.

And also help the low tier Hamas fighters who don't have access to the special comms an opportunity to organize. The ground offensive was such a success precisely because Hamas' C&C was thwarted.

I'd rather we lose less men than appease the "public opinion".

I agree Israel's PR is bad. We should just say out loud, it's pretty sad civilians are dying but the culpability lies with their political leadership. Hamas can surrender and return all hostages and then this all ends.

[Silent Hunter]

Oh hey, what's up?  Did I miss anything?

One opinion I'd like to throw out there is that it's absolute military malpractice that Israel isn't releasing the following video:

Two soldiers are standing next to each other at the entrance to a tunnel.  One enters the tunnel while the other starts walking straight forward.  They walk at the same pace, one guy following the tunnel, the other walking above ground.  Maybe you even have them both display GPS coordinates to show that they are in the same geographic location (guy 1 is just several dozen feet underground below guy 2).

GPS doesn't really work below ground. It requires line of sight to the satellites.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Fox News

An interesting story on the surge in the US of antisemitism.

https://www.foxnews.com/us/head-online-campaign-identify-antisemitism-says-doctors-dentists-openly-spew-hate

Many people have been reported to this online campaign website and have subsequently lost their employment. Careful what you post online in your support of Hamas.

The group's X account asks the public to identify offenders, then, after a verification process, publishes their names and employers and urges the community to hold them accountable. Many who've been featured in the campaign have been fired.

"We’re creating consequences for those that espouse hatred and bigotry against the Jewish people and nation," Rez said. "They have a right to spew hate, and we have the right to put a spotlight on it."

I do like the way FoxNews report both sides on their stories. BBC, Al Jazeera and ABC Australia will just spew "Babies Killed In Israeli Hospital Strikes" 7 days a week regardless whether it is true or not.

Fox News Israeli Guest Aaron Cohen shared a video of Israeli Spc Ops infiltrating a Hospital in 2015 to arrest a Hamas Terrorist Leader.

Hospital Arrest of Hamas Leader

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Czh8wjCreQ6/

He wonders whether Israeli Spec Ops are dressed as Palestinians and already in the Hospitals.

The IDF have reported they found an Arabic copy of Mein Kampf was found in a children's bedroom in northern Gaza.

https://twitter.com/Israel/status/1723664047692763459?s=20

[Pres Mike]

Iran and Saudi Arabia are starting to become increasingly close after the events of 10/7/23 and subsequent Israeli military response.

Needless to say, this is not at all the direction that the US was looking towards when it came to the Abraham Accords and trying to prevent Iran from obtaining nuclear weapons.

The leaders of Iran and Saudi Arabia, regional rivals who restored diplomatic ties this year, met in Riyadh on Saturday at a summit where they called for an immediate cease-fire in Gaza and unconditional delivery of humanitarian aid to the enclave, which Israeli forces have besieged since the Oct. 7 Hamas attacks.

The two Islamic countries, who support opposing factions in proxy conflicts across the region, first announced their diplomatic breakthrough in March, after years of hostility, in a deal brokered by China. But it was unclear whether the shift would lead to a lasting détente between Saudi Arabia’s Sunni monarchy and Iran’s Shiite government.

President Ebrahim Raisi of Iran, whose visit to Saudi Arabia was the first by an Iranian president to the kingdom in more than a decade, was greeted at the summit venue by Saudi Arabia’s de facto ruler, Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman. The Iranian president draped on his shoulder a kaffiyeh, the black and white square checkered scarf that has become a badge of Palestinian identity.

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/11/world/middleeast/iran-saudi-arabia-gaza-cease-fire.html

Iran and Saudi Arabia getting close is a good thing. It lessens the chance of a major war in the region. It was a good thing when they restored relations last March, despite it being faciliated by China.