Israel-Gaza war

[CumbrianLefty]

The strike on the refugee camp by the IDF is horrific and unacceptable. Shame on Netanyahu and his ilk.

Atrocities do not justify atrocities.

I don't think a Gantz or Lapid led gov would've done anything differently here.

Agree. I really think this whole Netanyahu blame game is a little cheap. His options are obviously extremely limited and almost any other Israeli PM would act similarly.

Agreed that any other Israeli PM would conduct a war similarly (even if not identically) and this is of course backed up by how Israel has behaved in the past. But that's not the main indictment of Bibi, is it - much more his responsibility for them having to do this in the first place.

[Hnv1]

very intensive fighting in Gaza City from the south west and from the north west (on the fringes of A-Shati refugee camp).

I have some questions about the battle plan I will leave outside for the moment

[Meclazine for Israel]

International Journalists have witnessed the 43 minute video from the Israeli Government containing some of the atrocities carried out on Oct 7.

Parents being executed in front of their children. Children being executed in front of their parents.

Here are their reactions.

October 7 Video

https://www.instagram.com/reel/Cy_AgblNhDy/

The Australian reporters who watched have said they wish they never watched it.

Meanwhile, in Lebanon, Hezbollah getting a little fiesty around the edges of Israel.


Incidents at the Northern Israeli Border (CNN)

[Aurelius2]

The strike on the refugee camp by the IDF is horrific and unacceptable. Shame on Netanyahu and his ilk.

Atrocities do not justify atrocities.

I don't think a Gantz or Lapid led gov would've done anything differently here.

Under Gantz or Lapid the attack may not have happened, since the main reason it did was because Bibi was using vast resources to protect Haredim and Judeo-Talibanism in the West Bank

I get you dislike the haredim but they have very little to do with what's going on in the West Bank. The overwhelming majority of the goat-fxcker settlers stirring up all this shlt are dati-leumi, not haredi.

[Velasco]

This is deeply embarrasing, to say the least. I see the abyss opening in front of my feet

https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1719120471109587065?t=qbEVyu8wOoR7nWeZK...

[LabourJersey]

This is deeply embarrasing, to say the least. I see the abyss opening in front of my feet

https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1719120471109587065?t=qbEVyu8wOoR7nWeZK...

I genuinely don't understand what the Israelis are going for with this.

[Velasco]

[
I genuinely don't understand what the Israelis are going for with this.

The question is whether this Israeli government is legitimized to use that symbol in this context, or rather it's banalizing the memory of Holocaust in order to justify its present actions

[afleitch]

[
I genuinely don't understand what the Israelis are going for with this.

The question is whether this Israeli government is legitimized to use that symbol in this context, or rather it's banalizing the memory of Holocaust in order to justify its present actions

The second one.

[Comrade Funk]

The Holocaust Memorial (Yad Vashem) already condemned it. The government is flat out embarrassing themselves at this point. This stunt is particularly bad/insulting. If the Israelis continue with this right-wing joke government, it's their own fault.

[Logical]

[
I genuinely don't understand what the Israelis are going for with this.

The question is whether this Israeli government is legitimized to use that symbol in this context, or rather it's banalizing the memory of Holocaust in order to justify its present actions

It also goes against the spirit and purpose of Zionism! Yellow Stars symbolize the time when Jews were powerless victims. Zionism is supposed to give Jews safety and allow them to be masters of their destiny.

[omar04]

There was a rumor yesterday that a Givati Brigade armored spearhead was ambushed. This is the official confirmation from the IDF.
https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1719585827188023593

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1719716632530964822

Another four were killed in the same ATGM strike.

[Velasco]

[
I genuinely don't understand what the Israelis are going for with this.

The question is whether this Israeli government is legitimized to use that symbol in this context, or rather it's banalizing the memory of Holocaust in order to justify its present actions

It also goes against the spirit and purpose of Zionism! Yellow Stars symbolize the time when Jews were powerless victims. Zionism is supposed to give Jews safety and allow them to be masters of their destiny.

It symbolizes the utter failure of Zionism, according to Yair Wallach. Worth noting the current Israeli government is a coalition between right-wing Revisionist Zionists and the most extremist elements of the Israeli society. Remember that Yitzak Rabin was murdered by one of those extremists. In my opinion that magnicide is a turning point in the history of Israel-Palestine, as well as represents the end of a liberal Zionist project advocating a two-state solution (a Jewish and democratic state coexisting with a separate state for Palestinians)

https://twitter.com/YairWallach/status/1719291613912944713?t=4IRfmJKNI5bb4sy-R1F...

[Red Velvet]

Angelina Jolie now joins criticism on Israel and Western American leadership inactions and actions against a ceasefire resolution:

https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1719797096209895510

[Ⓐnarchy in the ☭☭☭P!]

There was a rumor yesterday that a Givati Brigade armored spearhead was ambushed. This is the official confirmation from the IDF.
https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1719585827188023593

Hamas released the video of smoking the APC a few days ago, the IDF is clearly slow rolling their release of casualties. Probably because they know the public would freak out if they understood exactly how badly things are going and how high the cost will be if they keep following the current strategy. They very clearly aren't prepared for extended urban combat.

https://twitter.com/Sprinter99800/status/1719787646598197478

Clearly they need some Ukrainian or Russian advisors to teach them the basics of 21st century warfare. This is an army designed to beat enemies that can't fight back, like Jewish protesters in Jerusalem.

https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1719752311684071469

[Birdish]

I think it's too soon to be speculating on how the Israeli ground offence is going. I don't know what's considered "acceptable" casualties in a ground incursion, but lord knows we aren't getting an accurate representation from Hamas to contrast.

[redjohn]

This is deeply embarrasing, to say the least. I see the abyss opening in front of my feet

https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1719120471109587065?t=qbEVyu8wOoR7nWeZK...

Absolutely disgusting. Israel is completely inciting anti-semitism with the goal of polarizing naive groups in western nations into supporting their invasion. Jewish leaders need to speak against this madness - it is not anti-semitic to support the Palestinian people or oppose the Israeli genocide, and they're needlessly endangering millions with these performative stunts.

[oldtimer]

There was a rumor yesterday that a Givati Brigade armored spearhead was ambushed. This is the official confirmation from the IDF.
https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1719585827188023593

Hamas released the video of smoking the APC a few days ago, the IDF is clearly slow rolling their release of casualties. Probably because they know the public would freak out if they understood exactly how badly things are going and how high the cost will be if they keep following the current strategy. They very clearly aren't prepared for extended urban combat.

https://twitter.com/Sprinter99800/status/1719787646598197478
Clearly they need some Ukrainian or Russian advisors to teach them the basics of 21st century warfare. This is an army designed to beat enemies that can't fight back, like Jewish protesters in Jerusalem.

https://twitter.com/dancohen3000/status/1719752311684071469

It was quite weird that for the first 5 days the official IDF casualties where Zero.

However thay have advanced 3 miles in 6 days, although it's not a russian pace it's not blizkrieg either.
But it is close to the maximum extent of the Israeli push into Lebanon in 2006 before they got stuck.

[Vosem]

This is deeply embarrasing, to say the least. I see the abyss opening in front of my feet

https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1719120471109587065?t=qbEVyu8wOoR7nWeZK...

Absolutely disgusting. Israel is completely inciting anti-semitism with the goal of polarizing naive groups in western nations into supporting their invasion. Jewish leaders need to speak against this madness - it is not anti-semitic to support the Palestinian people or oppose the Israeli genocide, and they're needlessly endangering millions with these performative stunts.

Well, it is anti-Semitic (and anti-Bedouin, anti-Druze and so forth -- this can all be summed up by anti-Zionist) not to support destroying the regime in Gaza. Whether you think Israel is doing this with enough force (...or not enough, I guess) is up to you.

Thankfully, the army destroying Gaza will be a multi-ethnic one.

https://twitter.com/realMaalouf/status/1719788143535120798

If George W. Bush could condemn an Israeli air strike on a Hamas commander in 2002 that killed seven children as a "heavy-handed action that does not contribute to peace" then we should really not even be treating as slightly credible those who will defend a strike that has killed *hundreds* of civilians as acceptable.

As this example demonstrates, popular opinion in the United States -- and I suspect Western countries more broadly -- has changed a lot since 2002. It has become much more pro-Israel and much more hostile to the Palestinian cause. This is why an evangelical President felt the need to condemn something in 2002 and a secular President felt the need not to in 2023. (Also plausibly there are differences in intelligence reports, but I kind of doubt it.)

Okay, forget zero collateral damage, is there any hard limit you're willing to put on the tolerance for civilian casualties? If a single Hamas fighter is walking through a crowded market is it okay to drop a bomb on him and kill hundreds of people? If thousands are crowded in a hospital and you think that there could be munitions stored under the hospital, do you drop a bunker buster on the hospital and kill them all? If there are still civilians evacuating the combat area do you authorize tanks to just open fire on any vehicle while moving to attack the area you ordered an evacuation through to prevent the possibility that Hamas could drive a car into a tank? Are they in the clear to start dropping sarin or other chemical or biological weapons if they think it could reduce IDF casualties? Where do you draw the line?

By international law, they're not in the clear to use biological or chemical weapons. Most of the rest of this can be appropriate under the right circumstances -- killing a single random fighter by blowing up a market would be bad, but killing someone important that you can't get to otherwise is obviously justified. If intelligence reports say there are munitions under the hospital, then that is explicitly permitted by international law. That you can prohibit traffic in an area under martial law is also obviously permitted.

Is there a hard limit on civilian casualties? No, if you set one then you are explaining to the other side how to win. I think doing that would be evil, and I think people in this thread who want that are, usually unknowingly, enabling not just Hamas but the various Hamases and Donbass militias of the future to practice war in a way that maximizes civilian casualties. On this thread I've defended the bombing of Dresden; on this forum I've defended Hiroshima, even though I don't actually think the historical record supports that being the reason Japan surrendered (because it could reasonably have led the Japanese to surrender).

Nor do I support calls for a ceasefire. I would support other countries also bombing Gaza; I like the idea of Israel installing a multi-national occupation force, because then those countries will on some level be signing off on the conduct of the operation to seize Gaza being acceptable, and it will be more likely that future efforts against genocidal regimes will be conducted with sufficient force. What I support is an unconditional surrender by Hamas and an agreement to carry out the policies of the government in Jerusalem.

Because the one drawn by international law has been shown total contempt from both the IDF and its supporters.

It's funny that you say this, because the only person who has been citing the actual Geneva Conventions in this thread is me. In reality Israel has gone very far beyond its actual obligations.

and the incredible thing is that despite the unprecedented brutality and destruction it isn't even clear that the IDF has achieved any meaningful military benefit from their heavy hand. They've had zero impact on the ability of Hamas to continue launching rocket attacks and despite turning large parts of Gaza City into Stalingrad have had minimal progress with IDF ground forces constantly hounded by ambushes. Hamas fighters still freely travel through the supposedly destroyed tunnels to supposedly destroyed firing positions from which they launch their supposedly neutralized rockets with about as much as ease as one would have expected as if the IDF didn't bother with the preliminary bombing campaign at all. The only clear result of their terror bombings has been to totally destroy their reputation and credibility across the world and to produce a parade of easy propaganda for Hamas.

The only things I have heard out of Gaza are Telegram channels where both sides confidently declare victory. Prediction markets think there will be a long war, but then there are reasons to think the current Israeli government wants a long war, which might be unfortunate if they are primarily motivated by political rather than military considerations.

[Logical]

Latest map. IDF is attempting to cut off the coastal road to completely encircle Gaza City.

[Vosem]

This is deeply embarrasing, to say the least. I see the abyss opening in front of my feet

https://twitter.com/AmichaiStein1/status/1719120471109587065?t=qbEVyu8wOoR7nWeZK...

Absolutely disgusting. Israel is completely inciting anti-semitism with the goal of polarizing naive groups in western nations into supporting their invasion. Jewish leaders need to speak against this madness - it is not anti-semitic to support the Palestinian people or oppose the Israeli genocide, and they're needlessly endangering millions with these performative stunts.

Well, it is anti-Semitic (and anti-Bedouin, anti-Druze and so forth -- this can all be summed up by anti-Zionist) not to support destroying the regime in Gaza. Whether you think Israel is doing this with enough force (...or not enough, I guess) is up to you.

Thankfully, the army destroying Gaza will be a multi-ethnic one.

Fair. It's also anti-white not to support the destruction of the regime in, say, South Africa.

What, the current government of South Africa? I don't think the current one wants to kill all the whites or anything, even if there are certainly prejudiced individuals in the ruling party. The current ruling party definitely has members prejudiced against whites, but it also has whites in fairly high leadership roles (as in the Cabinet, for example).

If a government came to power that did want to kill all the white people (...EFF certainly seems like it might), then I think you would be right. It seems plausible, although far from certain, that this will be true in our lifetimes, and I really wonder what the reaction from Western powers would be if that came to pass. Certainly if Israel actually wanted to genocide the Palestinians, the current conflict would be much more nuanced (the reason Israel is so obviously in the right is that the Palestinian leadership wants to kill them, but the reverse is clearly false), but that just isn't the case.

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://twitter.com/War_Mapper/status/1719823625719537831

[NOVA Green]

https://twitter.com/War_Mapper/status/1719823625719537831

Well tbf much of the initial Israeli invasion plans were telegraphed a bit in advance.

Meaning that the "Partial Invasion" was looking increasingly like a reality, rather than a full scale invasion even prior to any IDF units moved into Gaza in force.

Also, it should be noted that much of the territory under IDF control are actually agricultural areas in Northern, Northeastern, and Eastern Gaza, and not the type of territory one would expect Hamas to mount significant military defense in, considering flat open terrain exposes their forces to not only Israeli real-time Intel, but also the aerial assets and long range precision artillery barrages.

Even much of the Israeli bombing targeting prior to any major incursion suggested exactly which routes the IDF planned on moving through in force.

There were a few early reports from Israeli soldiers back from the initial foray into  Northern Gaza describing some intense firefights involving small unit Hamas (?) formations "weaving in and out of Palm Trees" and getting hit with small arms fire and RPGs.

We had some reports shortly after the 2nd foray into what I believe was Northern Gaza, where two Israeli soldiers were injured, one severely (Mid ranking officer) from Palestinian mortar shells.

It is perhaps not too surprising that as Israel starts increasingly moving into more densely populated areas that IDF casualty levels will continue to increase significantly.

This also perhaps explains the IDF "Slow Rolling" of casualty reports, since after all there has historically been a strong culture of "force protection" with Israeli military tactics and plus Israeli public opinion can and has been extremely sensitive to IDF deaths, injuries, and POWs.

Still, arguably Israeli public opinion is perhaps a bit more hardened for increased IDF casualty numbers, than has been the case in the past.

After all, not only the sheer number of Israeli civilians murdered and kidnapped by Hamas substantively changed the equation, but additionally even from the IDF's perspective from the top brass, they have lost much less KIA, WIA, and no stories of IDF hostages yet from the current Gaza "Operation", than they did during the initial Hamas Attack on Israel.

[Ferguson97]

https://twitter.com/seungminkim/status/1719861865386238226

[Darthpi – Anti-Florida Activist]

https://twitter.com/seungminkim/status/1719861865386238226

I am not happy with how Biden has addressed humanitarian concerns thus far in this war, but he has at least been moving in the right direction, so I'll give him credit for this.

[NOVA Green]

https://twitter.com/seungminkim/status/1719861865386238226

I am not happy with how Biden has addressed humanitarian concerns thus far in this war, but he has at least been moving in the right direction, so I'll give him credit for this.

So maybe some foreign hostage release deal brewing?

Not sure what all this means, considering there are also some ~(400) American citizens and family members living in Gaza?

Regardless of the interesting use of the term "prisoners", there are clearly tons of civilian non-combatants stuck in the middle that have absolutely nothing to do with the Hamas-Israeli War.