Israel-Gaza war

[H. Ross Peron]

https://twitter.com/UN_News_Centre/status/1714649681521791305?s=20

Russia abstaining while France and Japan vote for is striking.

[strangerinthealps]

Really hard to trust any local media source on this.

It's sad...Al Jazeera had become one of my go-to sources regarding US news, but they are absolutely Hamas mouth-holes regarding this...

[strangerinthealps]

So the pro-Hamas side claims Israel did it, the pro-Israel side claims Palestinian terror groups did it and no one will change their minds. But the hatred will intensify, the war will intensify and many more people will die. I think it's time to log off and take a break from following all of this.

...and the winner is...IRAN!

They said there would be a preemptive strike, and they did not disappoint.

Iran is behind this whole thing.

I once heard someone say, and this has stuck with me...

"Iran is willing to fight Israel down the the last Palestinian."

They absolutely funded and pushed this whole thing to prevent progress on the Abraham Accords. With Saudi signing later this year, and Qatar likely not far behind, this would have caused a regional shift away from Iran's Extremist domination of the area.

They can't have that. Therefore, their Hamas insurgents committed acts so atrocious that Israel has no choice but to respond, and that response will prevent other, more moderate Arab nations from signing the accords or risk being overthrown internally.

To seal the deal, they blew up a hospital (they promised a preemptive strike) and blamed it on Israel. No matter what evidence is provided, the angry Muslim on the street will never believe anything else.

Iran has ensured at least another generation of strife, from which they benefit.

Honestly, well played, if they get away with it.

[strangerinthealps]

When Hezbollah trully enters the war, you'll see how many Israelis will leave the country. Palestinians don't have nowhere to go, you'll have to kill them all.

If Iran is dumb enough to commit Hezbollah to the war, you will get to see what a carrier group can do given complete air superiority...

[Comrade Funk]

You can quote multiple posts in one post

[Old Man Willow]

What is Russia's motivation to abstain?

[strangerinthealps]

What is Russia's motivation to abstain?

They want to keep doing business with Iran, while keeping Israel on the fence regarding Ukraine.

[Helsinkian]

If Israel were trying trying to frame a Palestinian group for the explosion, why would they decide to blame the PIJ instead of Hamas? Since 7 October all the focus has been on Hamas. Why would Israel want to divert that focus by blaming another, smaller group? Why not just say that Hamas did the failed rocket attack?

[oldtimer]

https://twitter.com/UN_News_Centre/status/1714649681521791305?s=20

Russia abstaining while France and Japan vote for is striking.

And the UK also abstaining.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

What is Russia's motivation to abstain?

They want to keep doing business with Iran, while keeping Israel on the fence regarding Ukraine.

Yep, ironically, Russia is now in the rock-and-hard-place dynamic with this conflict that Israel was dealing with in Ukraine. Only much more enmeshed and more bloody-handed.

[Indy Texas]

The IDF and Hamas do really get judged by different standards. The IDF does often operate in a cruel and callous manner to Palestinian civilians, but only by Western standards. They at least go through the motions to reduce civilian casualties, yet their failure to prioritize that above else is what gets them criticism. In trying to operate as a member of the West, however, they are still not insane enough to drop a bunker buster on a crowded hospital.

Hamas, on the other hand, has made it their mission to essentially maximize civilian casualties. Their MO is to indiscriminately fire rockets into Israel, without any ability to aim them, most of the time killing more of their own civilians than Israelis. Destroying the bridge across Wadi Gaza, concentrating civilians near likely Israeli targets, lying wholesale about Israel targeting the hospital are all actions so incomprehensible by Western standards that they escape without massive condemnation, as if Western journalists are attuned to only pick up a certain frequency of war crimes and some actions by Hamas have 'waves' too large for them to comprehend it.

With the hospital, the two theories were that Israel did indeed bomb the hospital and it was a foremost example of Israeli disregard for civilian life or that Hamas misfired the rocket and lied about 500 people dying as a propaganda tool. Western journalists had trouble comprehending that the Ministry of Health, comprised of typically honorable in the West medical professionals, would lie about something of such magnitude, so they reported on it without verifying the claim in the first place.

Israel has always expressed its desire to be considered a part of the Western world and receive all the privileges that implies. A great deal of their value proposition for why Western countries should support them is that they are the "only democracy in the Middle East" or the only "civilized"/"advanced"/etc country in the Middle East. But if you want the "rights" of a Western country, you have to be willing to accept the "responsibilities" of one too.

All this would be very interesting if there was in fact a leveled hospital, instead of a damaging rocket strike in a parking lot with plenty of casualties in the overcrowded area. The fully revealed true level of damage is perfectly in line with a Hamas failed missile strike.

Yeah this was all somewhat mysterious last night but now that it’s clear that the “blown up hospital” and 500-800 dead claims were despicable Hamas lies, there’s no real mystery to what happened anymore.

What makes this more bizarre is that Israel never disputed any of this - they just disputed who was responsible for that. The IDF also has a very poor track record of being an unreliable narrator (denying use of white phosphorus in previous conflicts only to admit it after the fact; claiming Shireen Abu Akleh was killed by a stray bullet from a Palestinian militant and later conceding they did it - and then attacking the woman's funeral of all things).

[oldtimer]

What is Russia's motivation to abstain?

They want to keep doing business with Iran, while keeping Israel on the fence regarding Ukraine.

Yep, ironically, Russia is now in the rock-and-hard-place dynamic with this conflict that Israel was dealing with in Ukraine. Only much more enmeshed and more bloody-handed.

They are not the deciding vote on this one, America is the last holdout with Veto power.

It kinda strengthens America's hand over Israel too.

The Biden Administration can influence the Israeli military responce, and tone it down in exchange for maintaining the Veto.

[strangerinthealps]

Abraham Accords are [inks]ed, I think.

Saudi was set to sign on later this year, with Qatar to follow soon. That has probably been set back years.

Thanks Iran!

[strangerinthealps]

What an absolute calamity for Western media. We went to bed with Israel leveling a hospital killing over 500, to the reality of Palestinian rocket debris killing 10-20 at most.

Shame on you NYT, Guardian, and the rest of the usual culprits.

Iran still says 5000 were killed...

...all women and children...

[Yellowhammer]

As it turns out, the Israeli's had already bombed this hospital a few days previously. But of course they wouldn't do such a thing a second time.

https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2023/10/anglican-run-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza-damaged-by-israeli-rocket-fire-as-conflict-continues.aspx

Not a good day for the credibility of neoconservative propagandists and online intelligence assets spreading naked disinfo.

The horseshoe theory is real especially when it comes to foreign policy

My foreign policy echoes the words of George Washington:

"It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it, for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements [as of 1796]. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies."

It is your utopian, universalist, neoconservative idea of foreign policy that is extreme and anti-American. Gaza isn't America, Israel isn't America, and taxing Americans to fund petty tribal feuds around the world, terrorism, or regime-perpetrated bloodshed is against the best interests of ordinary Americans.
Entangling alliances so extreme that they threaten to drag us into a general war in the Middle East on behalf of a tiny New Jersey-sized country that does nothing for America is exactly what the founders of the United States detested and warned against.

Those so-called Americans who have a higher loyalty to a foreign country such that they see America as a cash-cow and armory to protect foreign interests should get out of America and move to their favored foreign country.

[OSR stands with Israel]

As it turns out, the Israeli's had already bombed this hospital a few days previously. But of course they wouldn't do such a thing a second time.

https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2023/10/anglican-run-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza-damaged-by-israeli-rocket-fire-as-conflict-continues.aspx

Not a good day for the credibility of neoconservative propagandists and online intelligence assets spreading naked disinfo.

The horseshoe theory is real especially when it comes to foreign policy

My foreign policy echoes the words of George Washington:

"It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it, for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements [as of 1796]. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies."

It is your utopian, universalist, neoconservative idea of foreign policy that is extreme and anti-American. Gaza isn't America, Israel isn't America, and taxing Americans to fund petty tribal feuds around the world, terrorism, or regime-perpetrated bloodshed is against the best interests of ordinary Americans.
Entangling alliances so extreme that they threaten to drag us into a general war in the Middle East on behalf of a tiny New Jersey-sized country that does nothing for America is exactly what the founders of the United States detested and warned against.

Those so-called Americans who have a higher loyalty to a foreign country such that they see America as a cash-cow and armory to protect foreign interests should get out of America and move to their favored foreign country.

George Washington said so because the US was not a power then let alone a super power . If they got involved in the Napoleonic wars , we’d have been completely crushed and it would have been a disaster for the nation . He also said it because many people were putting the idealism of the revolution over taking a pragmatic view on what our position actually was and his farewell address kept even someone like Jefferson from getting us involved in a conflict that would have been disastrous for us in the 1800s.

Also I don’t support getting involved in every conflict. I opposed our intervention in the Syrian Civil War cause whether Assad or the rebels won was truly none of our business and we shouldn’t have propped either side up . If Iran and Afghanistan got into a conflict for some reason , I’d oppose intervening in that case as well .

I view supporting Israel as 100% in our interests and also the morally correct thing to do

[Yellowhammer]

As it turns out, the Israeli's had already bombed this hospital a few days previously. But of course they wouldn't do such a thing a second time.

https://www.anglicannews.org/news/2023/10/anglican-run-al-ahli-arab-hospital-in-gaza-damaged-by-israeli-rocket-fire-as-conflict-continues.aspx

Not a good day for the credibility of neoconservative propagandists and online intelligence assets spreading naked disinfo.

The horseshoe theory is real especially when it comes to foreign policy

My foreign policy echoes the words of George Washington:

"It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world, so far, I mean, as we are now at liberty to do it, for let me not be understood as capable of patronizing infidelity to existing engagements [as of 1796]. I hold the maxim no less applicable to public than to private affairs that honesty is always the best policy. I repeat, therefore, let those engagements be observed in their genuine sense. But in my opinion it is unnecessary and would be unwise to extend them.

Taking care always to keep ourselves by suitable establishments on a respectable defensive posture, we may safely trust to temporary alliances for extraordinary emergencies."

It is your utopian, universalist, neoconservative idea of foreign policy that is extreme and anti-American. Gaza isn't America, Israel isn't America, and taxing Americans to fund petty tribal feuds around the world, terrorism, or regime-perpetrated bloodshed is against the best interests of ordinary Americans.
Entangling alliances so extreme that they threaten to drag us into a general war in the Middle East on behalf of a tiny New Jersey-sized country that does nothing for America is exactly what the founders of the United States detested and warned against.

Those so-called Americans who have a higher loyalty to a foreign country such that they see America as a cash-cow and armory to protect foreign interests should get out of America and move to their favored foreign country.

George Washington said so because the US was not a power then let alone a super power . If they got involved in the Napoleonic wars , we’d have been completely crushed and it would have been a disaster for the nation . He also said it because many people were putting the idealism of the revolution over taking a pragmatic view on what our position actually was and his farewell address kept even someone like Jefferson from getting us involved in a conflict that would have been disastrous for us in the 1800s.

Also I don’t support getting involved in every conflict. I opposed our intervention in the Syrian Civil War cause whether Assad or the rebels won was truly none of our business and we shouldn’t have propped either side up . If Iran and Afghanistan got into a conflict for some reason , I’d oppose intervening in that case as well .

I view supporting Israel as 100% in our interests and also the morally correct thing to do

This is off-topic so we're going to take the rest of this argument elsewhere.

[strangerinthealps]

"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They have sown the wind, and so they shall reap the whirlwind."

- Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Travers Harris

[lfromnj]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russias-draft-resolution-on-israel-failed-to-mention-hamas-defeated-at-un/ar-AA1ijQVR

Russia actually took a stronger stance against Israel and that is why it abstained on Brazil's proposal.

[Senator Incitatus]

Like most people, I spent the past day or two—Is it two yet? They blur together now.—engaging in self-comforting cynicism and assigning blame in my head for the hospital bombing. Intrigue and espionage, trying to position myself on the side of righteousness for public approbation, that sort of thing.

On the walk home today, my mind finally turned to the victims and the horror they must have experienced in their final moments. I broke down as soon as I shut the door behind me. If you can unwrap yourself from that distant righteousness and experience a little difficult compassion, please say a prayer for the innocents lost.

[Vosem]

So, it appears today that the hospital strike was essentially made up and literal fake news. Most of my speculation yesterday (about what could have caused an explosion of that size, and so forth) was incorrect.

That said, my point that the media is horrendously biased in favor of the Palestinian parties is obviously true, since they made the whole thing up. (In fact, if you read the early articles closely, you'll note that there was never even a Hamas statement -- they literally just quoted some guy in the Gaza Health Ministry.) If you simply assume that any story reported in mainstream Western news outlets about Israeli atrocities is scandalously and blatantly false, and don't give it serious consideration, you'll be much closer to an accurate view of the world. (True for everyone reading this, even if you consider yourself a pro-Israel partisan. You too, lurkers.)

This is not to say that Israel doesn't sometimes do bad things, or that you should trust IDF press releases (lol). It is simply to say that more-or-less all accounts of Israeli atrocities in Western media are lies, and you should dismiss them off-handedly. When you do this, your model of the world will be closer to reality.

https://twitter.com/spengjr/status/1714413067990134967

[Pericles]

"The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naive theory into operation. They have sown the wind, and so they shall reap the whirlwind."

- Air Chief Marshal Sir Arthur Travers Harris

The carpet-bombing of Germany is not something to be emulated, FFS.

[Yellowhammer]

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russias-draft-resolution-on-israel-failed-to-mention-hamas-defeated-at-un/ar-AA1ijQVR

Russia actually took a stronger stance against Israel and that is why it abstained on Brazil's proposal.

Fascinating. Goes along with what I have been hearing from alt-news analysts and pundits since they invaded Ukraine.

[Middle-aged Europe]

So, it appears today that the hospital strike was essentially made up and literal fake news. Most of my speculation yesterday (about what could have caused an explosion of that size, and so forth) was incorrect.

That said, my point that the media is horrendously biased in favor of the Palestinian parties is obviously true, since they made the whole thing up. (In fact, if you read the early articles closely, you'll note that there was never even a Hamas statement -- they literally just quoted some guy in the Gaza Health Ministry.) If you simply assume that any story reported in mainstream Western news outlets about Israeli atrocities is scandalously and blatantly false, and don't give it serious consideration, you'll be much closer to an accurate view of the world. (True for everyone reading this, even if you consider yourself a pro-Israel partisan. You too, lurkers.)

This is not to say that Israel doesn't sometimes do bad things, or that you should trust IDF press releases (lol). It is simply to say that more-or-less all accounts of Israeli atrocities in Western media are lies, and you should dismiss them off-handedly. When you do this, your model of the world will be closer to reality.

https://twitter.com/spengjr/status/1714413067990134967

It's more like the Middle East conflict is such a class-A clusterf**k that it is very hard to make an assessment that  somehow doesn't miss the target.

Israel is often held to a higher standard in its conduct due to it being a democracy under the rule of law. This however makes it also all too easy to lose perspective of who the real bad guys are... Hamas, Iran and the like. It's almost taken for grant that everyone knows what monsters Hamas are, therefore neglecting proper condemnation of them sometimes.

At the same time, the treatment of the Palestinian civilian population not only by Israel, but also neighbouring Arab nations and the entirery of the so-called Western world is nothing but "problematic" to say the least.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I must say that I'm very pleased I did not ever comment on the "hospital bombing" because it seems like every person who did just ended up looking like a fool.

And as far as the media's negligence in that goes...yikes.