Israel-Gaza war

[NOVA Green]

This thread is useless. And it's the same people

Well tbf there are some of us that are attempting to keep it on track by primarily focusing on contemporary events rather than rehashing and relitigating all of the various events over the past (100) years.

Sure it is important to have some historical context when discussing the current "Israeli-Gaza War", as this thread was originally named, but yes way too often many posters here:

1.) Have an emotional investment which prevents critical thinking and discourse;

2.) Have their own pet "axes to grind", frequently regurgitations of their musings on various other International General Discussion (IGD) threads;

3.) Can't agree to disagree and shelve the broader Israeli-Palestinian discussion here and instead discuss contemporary events and recent history of this particular conflict,  and move items such as the context of the foundation of Israel and associated historical Palestinian grievances, over to the other thread(s) which were meant for such conversations.

Current reality is that we are talking about two actors, the Israeli State and Hamas, which effectively have been at war for a couple decades, albeit frequently a frozen conflict, with little military exchanges occurring from either side at various periods, and intense escalations at other times.

It is understandable that the initial reactions to what we witnessed following the Hamas assault on Israel, including atrocities against civilian populations, as well as the subsequent Israeli air strikes in Gaza, which have also caused needless civilian casualties (Albeit not intentional), can frequently trigger emotional responses, and cause generally well intentioned posters to s**tpost, but yeah generally agree about how certain posters tend to be a bit more prone to Threadjacking than others.

Their names will rename anonymous to protect the innocent.   

Absolutely--- I agree 100% with NOVA, in that 50% of the posts made on this thread since you posted reinforce the very point you were attempting to make.

That being said, I'm surprised you have been so reticent as not to mention a story just posted some 30 minutes ago on the NYT about Israeli military intentions regarding Gaza, considering your pretty solid posting history.

Regardless, since I beat you to the punch, here are a few small snippets.

The Israeli military is preparing to invade the Gaza Strip in the coming days with tens of thousands of soldiers ordered to capture Gaza City and destroy the enclave’s current leadership, according to three senior Israeli military officers who outlined unclassified details about the plan.

"The military has not yet formally announced that it will invade Gaza, though it has confirmed that reconnaissance teams briefly entered the strip on Friday and that Israeli troops were increasing their “readiness” for a ground war.

Tens of thousands of Hamas gunmen are thought to have entrenched themselves inside hundreds of miles of underground tunnels and bunkers beneath Gaza City and the surrounding parts of northern Gaza. Israeli military leaders expect that Hamas will attempt to impede their progress by blowing up some of those tunnels as Israelis advance above them, and by exploding roadside bombs and booby-trapping buildings.

Hamas also plans to ambush Israeli forces from behind by emerging suddenly from hidden tunnel openings dotted across northern Gaza, according to a Hamas officer who was not authorized to speak to the news media."

"The invasion was initially planned for the weekend, but was delayed by a few days at least in part because of cloudy conditions that would have made it harder for Israeli pilots and drone operators to provide ground forces with air cover, the officers said."

"Their goal will be “the rout of Hamas and the elimination of its leaders after the slaughter they perpetrated,” Rear Adm. Daniel Hagari, the chief spokesman for the Israel Defense Forces, said on Saturday.

“This organization will not rule Gaza militarily and politically,” Admiral Hagari added."

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/14/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-invasion.html

Take that scoop NOVA GREEN!!!

Fine, that's all great NOVA Sr., but you still haven't answered the question of *WHEN* Israel will move into Gaza.

Sure, I get it things might have been a bit "cloudy" and delayed the inevitable "shock and awe", but that's a bit weak considering how many military assets Israel has lined up at the border already.

Sure, Israel might be waiting for their 300,000 reservists to be integrated into other military units so they are not diluting the integrity of their various divisions, and damage military cohesion.

Maybe it's taking a bit of time to reallocate the most trained and experienced units from the Northern Front, West Bank, Syrian Border, etc... in a way where Israel still maintains a solid defensive posture with the capabilities for offensive capabilities in case things break loose in Southern Lebanon, or possibly even the West Bank?

I am not saying your argument is weak, but perhaps there are other variables to consider?

[NOVA Green]

Russia is now asking the UN Security Council to consider a ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-14/

[Isaak]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

Do y'all know what a genocide is?? Cuz it isn't civilian casualties and that's it

Exactly.

But according to some users here...

...any military operation that results in more than a few dozen civilian casualties is a "genocide".
...any such operation carried out by the IDF is also "ethnic cleansing".
...any policy that deviates even slightly from secular modernity is "theocratic".

Well, it's one way to make these terms meaningless.

(By the way – the IDF is the only "genocidal" force in the world that actively seeks to minimize civilian casualties. It seems they haven't quite understood what their job ist... or they're terribly bad at it.)

[OSR stands with Israel]

Did we commit was crimes when we invaded Germany in 1945

... Yes, of course we did.

War crimes have been committed by every side in every single war throughout history. 

You have the most black and white view of the world I've ever seen from an adult. It's almost comical.

That is not my point though. I am asking this because the reason many posters are posting this about Israel is because they dont think Israel should invade Gaza and think the US should cut of support for them .

So I will ask again, if Israel should not invade or bomb Gaza what should they do to destroy Hamas.

You're doing that thing again where you move the goal posts in the middle of a discussion. First the war crimes aren't happening, and now they're a necessary evil.

I mean if:


- War Crimes are committed by every side in every war then it is sorta of disingenuous to keep bringing it up to go after Israel. It is exactly why I brought up WW2 , not because I think we did not commit any war crimes in WW2. 

- If you don't think Israel should invade or bomb gaza, then you should give your opinion on how you think Hamas should be destroyed

[Middle-aged Europe]

Well, Israel does create a humanitarian catastrophe in violation of international law right now.

That being said, it is preferable to conduct weeks, possibly months, of urban warfare in Gaza City without having civilians in the streets.

The lighter shade of grey. Maybe.

That's for future historians to decide, based on whether the ultimate outcome wil be one where the benefits outweigh the downsides.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Traditional just war theory makes a distinction between just reasons to begin a war and just ways to behave militarily once the war is underway. I am not an orthodox just war theorist--I incline emotionally towards a pacifist perspective and only adopt more bellicose stances when the price of inaction is itself complicity in something terrible--but I think this distinction is useful to keep in mind here. Israel is more than justified in seeking to respond militarily to what Hamas did last weekend. It is not justified in much of what it's done and will probably keep doing as part of that military response.

[Isaak]

cutting off aid to Israel is not wise for US interests.

Right now no given how it would look, but our past decade of allowing our money to flow to the increasingly illiberal and traitorous (I care more about this one tbh) country has also not been in our interests. It’s clear our status quo policy did not work, and Israeli leadership needs to be reminded that they are supposed to be our puppet and not the other way around.

Just a reminder that the US is not the center of the universe. Israel has never been its "puppet" (LOL at using this term unironically) and has every right to conduct its foreign policy in accordance with its own national interests. If these don't fully align with those of the US... well, that's not Israel's problem.

And guess what? The US is still going to pay. Because given the politics in the region, even a "traitorous" (LOL again) Israel is a far greater strategic asset than any other ally it has.

[American2020]

https://twitter.com/ArmandDoma/status/1713217097663488121

[pppolitics]

cutting off aid to Israel is not wise for US interests.

Why should the US continue to subsidize a developed country (which also does contrary to our wishes)?

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

https://twitter.com/ArmandDoma/status/1713217097663488121

The most extreme and doctrinaire policies of the regime that hasn't chanced holding an election since 2006 aren't actually all that popular? Say it ain't so!

[Meclazine for Israel]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

Do y'all know what a genocide is?? Cuz it isn't civilian casualties and that's it

Exactly.

But according to some users here...

...any military operation that results in more than a few dozen civilian casualties is a "genocide".
...any such operation carried out by the IDF is also "ethnic cleansing".
...any policy that deviates even slightly from secular modernity is "theocratic".

Well, it's one way to make these terms meaningless.

(By the way – the IDF is the only "genocidal" force in the world that actively seeks to minimize civilian casualties. It seems they haven't quite understood what their job ist... or they're terribly bad at it.)

This post has been reported as a war crime.

[Velasco]

The most powerful response so far. Really moving

https://twitter.com/BenzionSanders/status/1713255988608848069?t=6yVGx3qBEzwaV_Sg...

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1713337807031152745?s=20
The IDF killed Americans. Let's be real.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Father, Thomas Hand, describes finding out his 8 year old daughter, Emily, was murdered by Hamas militants in cold blood.

Irish News Story


(Emily Hand was murdered by Hamas gunmen. Picture from Thomas Hand/ CNN)

Mr Hand first moved to Be’eri in the 1990s as a volunteer before deciding to stay in the community full-time.

Following the death of his wife from cancer a few years ago, he has lived alone with their daughter Emily.

Emily Hand

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Bn20jGQW5w

[Meclazine for Israel]

F@#k Jews! F#$k Israel!

These are the phrases yelled by pro-Palestinian protesters in Sydney at the Opera House following the Southern Israel terrorist attacks on Oct 7.

An Australian politician is now calling for any of those protestors with partial visas to be deported.


Peter Dutton with Sussan Ley. He says Asio is ‘understandably concerned’ about community tensions after the pro-Palestinian rally at the Sydney Opera House. Photograph: Mick Tsikas/AAP

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/oct/13/peter-dutton-visas-antisemitic-cancelled-protest

Peter Dutton and Sussan Ley have doubled down on calls to cancel the visas of antisemitic protesters, despite the head of Australia’s spy agency warning that “inflamed language” may fuel community tensions.

The opposition leader and his deputy again called on the government to use character provisions in migration law to deport those responsible for antisemitic chants. Senior ministers urged the public to stay calm and let police do their work, and noted there was no evidence that the protesters making antisemitic comments were temporary residents.

Clearly a political move that has resounding support. Community anger towards these protestors is rife.

[Saint Milei]

To all the posters that are being critical of Israel. What would you have done if you were Israel After the Hamas abducted/raped/decapitated a ton of israeli children ?


Death toll is terrible in Gaza but I genuinely don't see how Hamas shouldn't be entirely blamed for that.

I would not go in and genocide a group of people because of terrorists. Responding to Hamas by becoming Hamas isn't the answer.

What Israel is doing is not genocide

My fault, ethnic cleansing. That's the politically correct term

[NOVA Green]

https://twitter.com/JStein_WaPo/status/1713337807031152745?s=20
The IDF killed Americans. Let's be real.

Not quite sure where you're going there mate.

Are you talking about American hostages who died under Israeli rocket attacks in a Hamas bunker?

Were US citizens caught in the cross-fire between IDF forces and Hamas militants?

Perhaps some of the US citizens dead were living in Gaza Strip?

Tossing out a loose throwaway such as "The IDF killed Americans. Let's be real", without providing any type of backup to substantiate such claims, especially considering the ramifications is honestly is a bit weak.

I suspect a lot of Americans would be interested to know if IDF killed American Citizens.

Not a hater on you, but please cite with sources.

[NOVA Green]

NOVA GREEN BREAKING ALERT

*** 2nd US Carrier Fleet rolls in ***

The U.S. will deploy a second aircraft carrier strike group near Israel, further bolstering its military presence in the Mediterranean amid concerns of an escalating conflict with Iran and Hezbollah.

U.S. Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin said that "The increases to U.S. force posture signal the United States' ironclad commitment to Israel’s security and our resolve to deter any state or non-state actor seeking to escalate this war."

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-14/ty-article-live/

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/BostonReview/status/1712906344766804411
https://twitter.com/BostonReview/status/1713193172627489152
https://twitter.com/BostonReview/status/1713283573896073545

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/alexbkane/status/1713160692973351003

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/thenation/status/1712920392375898319
https://twitter.com/thenation/status/1712981796449644845
https://twitter.com/thenation/status/1712885160935297169

[Aurelius2]

https://twitter.com/BostonReview/status/1712906344766804411
https://twitter.com/BostonReview/status/1713193172627489152
https://twitter.com/BostonReview/status/1713283573896073545

There is nothing Jewish about """Jewish""" Voice for Peace. They cheered on the Hamas pogrom of October 7 from the moment it began, and for decades seemingly their only purpose has been to serve as a fifth column to launder the reputation of any person or group accused of Jew-hate. Don't you dare cite them as Jewish anything. Other Jewish organizations are unanimously opposed to everything they do and for damn good reason.

Oh and stop spamming the same article by the same hateful ghoul, republished in various outlets, over and over again.

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/Mondoweiss/status/1712777366554951749
https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1713015102880833586

[Aurelius2]

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1713015102880833586

https://twitter.com/AzorInfo/status/1713039876369891388

Karen Attiah is a monster who cheers on pogroms. Nuff said.

[pppolitics]

https://twitter.com/washingtonpost/status/1713015102880833586

https://twitter.com/AzorInfo/status/1713039876369891388

Karen Attiah is a monster who cheers on pogroms. Nuff said.

Nice Ad Hominem.