Israel-Gaza war

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

I've been vocal about my distaste for Hamas and my wish that it be completely annihilated, but how come we don't have people chasing down pro-Israel posters ITT demanding that they denounce the IDF's killings of civilians the same way we have demanded that anyone who supports Palestinian independence denounce Hamas? For all the talk of baby murders, a baby dies whether it's shot by Hamas or bombed by the IDF. Civilian deaths in this conflict are already mostly Palestinian, and it's only going to get worse for Palestinians. And please don't give me the "human shields" crap. It is completely impossible that Israel has enough verified Hamas targets to be dropping 1,000 bombs a day for 6 days now with no sign of stopping. Everyone, even Israel, agrees that this is terror bombing.

Because it would be in as bad taste as hounding American posters about the casualties in Afghanistan in 2001. The attacked party gets leeway the attacker doesn't.

Besides, no one is stalking pro-Palestinian posters demanding they condemn it, because 90% of the pro-Palestinian posters were horrified. They're stalking a select few vile war-crime deniers.

[Devout Centrist]

I don’t think the IDF’s bombing campaign will be particularly effective, apart from maiming civilians and bystanders. It may even benefit Hamas fighters by making urban combat more difficult during the ground invasion. My guess is, Bibi and co. feel the need to make a statement in order to salvage their political careers.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

A restrained American response to 9/11 would have saved hundreds of thousands of lives and trillions of dollars. The brave few who stood against the hysterical bloodlust, like Susan Sontag, were the ones vindicated.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

I don’t think the IDF’s bombing campaign will be particularly effective, apart from maiming civilians and bystanders. It may even benefit Hamas fighters by making urban combat more difficult during the ground invasion. My guess is, Bibi and co. feel the need to make a statement in order to salvage their political careers.

I've long suspected that they have a semi-official policy of exacting ten to fifteen times as many civilian casualties on the Palestinians as the inverse. The open use of white phosphorus, now independently confirmed, and the now-indiscriminate terror bombing would definitely point to this.
https://twitter.com/hrw/status/1712573871596187916?t=TZMLtmG_SnYSfiqJFDf27g&...

[NOVA Green]

Looming Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza continues to loom with an estimated 300,000 homeless and fuel, water, and fuel running out.

"Six days of Israeli airstrikes have left more than 300,000 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip homeless, with two million residents facing critical shortages of food, water and fuel, while Israeli troops prepared on Thursday for a possible ground invasion after Hamas’s deadly weekend assault." ....

"Gaza’s only power plant stopped generating electricity on Wednesday for lack of fuel, shutting down everything from lights to refrigerators, and much of the region lacks running water. Hospitals are overwhelmed with wounded patients and running out of vital supplies; fuel for generators and vehicles is dwindling rapidly; food and water are growing scarce; and it is not clear when humanitarian aid might be allowed in."...

"In Gaza, 338,000 people have been displaced, the United Nations said, with most of them taking shelter in U.N. schools....

"Israeli warplanes have bombed 88 educational facilities in Gaza, including 18 U.N. schools, two of which were being used to shelter civilians, said Stéphane Dujarric, a U.N. spokesman.".

My own comments here, but now obviously an even bigger killer will likely be a mass outbreak of Cholera, since without electricity Water and Sewage plants will cease to function (If they have already started to fail).

People will not be able to drink clean water from POTWs, raw sewage will cross contaminate...

Naturally the young and the old and infirm will likely face extremely high fatality rates under current conditions.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/12/world/israel-gaza-war-hamas

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Looming Humanitarian Crisis in Gaza continues to loom with an estimated 300,000 homeless and fuel, water, and fuel running out.

"Six days of Israeli airstrikes have left more than 300,000 Palestinians in the Gaza Strip homeless, with two million residents facing critical shortages of food, water and fuel, while Israeli troops prepared on Thursday for a possible ground invasion after Hamas’s deadly weekend assault." ....

"Gaza’s only power plant stopped generating electricity on Wednesday for lack of fuel, shutting down everything from lights to refrigerators, and much of the region lacks running water. Hospitals are overwhelmed with wounded patients and running out of vital supplies; fuel for generators and vehicles is dwindling rapidly; food and water are growing scarce; and it is not clear when humanitarian aid might be allowed in."...

"In Gaza, 338,000 people have been displaced, the United Nations said, with most of them taking shelter in U.N. schools....

"Israeli warplanes have bombed 88 educational facilities in Gaza, including 18 U.N. schools, two of which were being used to shelter civilians, said Stéphane Dujarric, a U.N. spokesman.".

My own comments here, but now obviously an even bigger killer will likely be a mass outbreak of Cholera, since without electricity Water and Sewage plants will cease to function (If they have already started to fail).

People will not be able to drink clean water from POTWs, raw sewage will cross contaminate...

Naturally the young and the old and infirm will likely face extremely high fatality rates under current conditions.

https://www.nytimes.com/live/2023/10/12/world/israel-gaza-war-hamas

At some point there have to be consequences; Israel knows they can flout international law however and whenever they want. Instead, they want you doxxed and blacklisted for refusing to buy products made in Israel.

[Storr]

The Israeli military has told the UN that everyone living north of Wadi Gaza should relocate to southern Gaza in the next 24 hours, says a UN spokesperson.

The UN says this amounts to approximately 1.1 million people - about half the population of the entire Gaza Strip

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

https://twitter.com/Timesofgaza/status/1712517531292877163?s=20

Our revenge will be the laughter of our children.

[Ferguson97]

The Israeli military has told the UN that everyone living north of Wadi Gaza should relocate to southern Gaza in the next 24 hours, says a UN spokesperson.

The UN says this amounts to approximately 1.1 million people - about half the population of the entire Gaza Strip

24 hours is not nearly enough time. This will lead to countless civilian deaths.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The Israeli military has told the UN that everyone living north of Wadi Gaza should relocate to southern Gaza in the next 24 hours, says a UN spokesperson.

The UN says this amounts to approximately 1.1 million people - about half the population of the entire Gaza Strip

24 hours is not nearly enough time. This will lead to countless civilian deaths.

I don't get the impression that Israel cares.

[NOVA Green]

Doctors Without Borders is issuing increasingly dire warnings about the consequences of continued massive Israeli bombardment of Gaza:

"Léo Cans is the MSF head of mission for Palestine, based in Jerusalem. He provides an update on the situation for people and Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) teams in Gaza, Palestine, following the breakout of hostilities."

"“The situation in Gaza is catastrophic; the hospitals are overwhelmed. The number of wounded is extremely high – there is a constant influx into all the hospitals in the Gaza Strip. The medical teams are exhausted, working around the clock to treat the wounded.

The bombardments are very intense. Entire buildings are being destroyed, including one last night right next to the MSF office. Sometimes people receive a text message in the middle of the night telling them to evacuate their homes, as happened to some of our team members in Gaza. You have to wake up your children in the middle of the night and leave your house, without taking any of your belongings, to get to safety."


https://www.msf.org/hospitals-are-overwhelmed-catastrophic-situation-gaza

Here is another update from the MSF (Date uncertain but suspect more recent):

"Now the Israeli government has decided to completely cut off water and electricity supplies, and the phone network has been badly damaged. This morning, we were unable to reach our teams in Gaza by phone. Inevitably, this all makes it extremely difficult to coordinate rescue operations and access the injured." ...

"As for MSF, we are very concerned to see that medical facilities have not been spared. One of the hospitals we support was hit by an airstrike and damaged. Another airstrike destroyed an ambulance carrying the wounded, right in front of the hospital where we work. The MSF team, who were operating on a patient, had to leave the hospital in a hurry. We repeat: medical facilities must be respected. This is not something that should have to be negotiated."

https://www.msf.org/hospitals-are-overwhelmed-catastrophic-situation-gaza

Regardless of the fact that Hamas chose to unleash an extremely brutal terrorist assault against Civilian Populations in Southern Israel, and has a legitimate right to defend itself against the political-military organizations involved, it should still be a moral imperative for the Israeli Government and Military to ensure that whatever actions they take against those individuals and organizations which ordered or participated in the atrocities, does not become a vicious form of collective punishment.

It is time for Israel to own the moral high ground considering the viscous and brutal nature of the Hamas Battalion (3,000) which led the charge, back up with an additional 1,500 , and all of the verifiable War Crimes committed.

Although I strongly doubted that Israeli would not invade Gaza in force, as one of my first posts on this thread indicated, would naturally be the most likely Israeli response will all sorts of inevitable outcomes.

That is still clearly completely signaled by IDF again earlier today.

Still, Israel has a moral responsibility to ensure the minimum amount of human suffering possible of the Civilian Population of the West Bank, as they attempt to completely eliminate Hamas. (To me that is a virtually impossible goal considering the difficulties in eliminating Ideology, versus simply political-military organizations or regimes).

[GALeftist]

I've been vocal about my distaste for Hamas and my wish that it be completely annihilated, but how come we don't have people chasing down pro-Israel posters ITT demanding that they denounce the IDF's killings of civilians the same way we have demanded that anyone who supports Palestinian independence denounce Hamas? For all the talk of baby murders, a baby dies whether it's shot by Hamas or bombed by the IDF. Civilian deaths in this conflict are already mostly Palestinian, and it's only going to get worse for Palestinians. And please don't give me the "human shields" crap. It is completely impossible that Israel has enough verified Hamas targets to be dropping 1,000 bombs a day for 6 days now with no sign of stopping. Everyone, even Israel, agrees that this is terror bombing.

Because it would be in as bad taste as hounding American posters about the casualties in Afghanistan in 2001. The attacked party gets leeway the attacker doesn't.

Besides, no one is stalking pro-Palestinian posters demanding they condemn it, because 90% of the pro-Palestinian posters were horrified. They're stalking a select few vile war-crime deniers.

Attackers must still abide by international law. Anyway, estimates for civilian casualties of the invasion of Afghanistan range from 1500 to 2400 deaths over 2 months, and this was a full-scale ground invasion of a country of 20 million, mind you. More accurate analogues would be the Battle of Mosul (5800 civilians killed over 9 months by Iraqi and Coalition airstrikes) and the 2017 Battle of Raqqa (1600 civilians killed by Coalition airstrikes over 4 months). Over 1500 Palestinians in Gaza have died and it hasn't been a week. This is just not comparable to other campaigns, even against the likes of ISIS.

There are definitely some vile pro-Hamas war crime deniers out there, but the fact is that there's an extremely obvious double standard here. There seems to be some agreement that, because of the horrific terror it endured, Israel now gets carte blanche to terrorize Palestinians, international law be damned. Israel can and must be held to a higher standard than this, and I frankly think it's disgusting that it is treated as a reasonable difference of opinion to believe that Israeli actions in this war have all been totally fine. It is not reasonable to defend this conduct, it is reprehensible.

[Damocles]

I don’t see how this ends in anything other than a Sack of Carthage situation.

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

I've been vocal about my distaste for Hamas and my wish that it be completely annihilated, but how come we don't have people chasing down pro-Israel posters ITT demanding that they denounce the IDF's killings of civilians the same way we have demanded that anyone who supports Palestinian independence denounce Hamas? For all the talk of baby murders, a baby dies whether it's shot by Hamas or bombed by the IDF. Civilian deaths in this conflict are already mostly Palestinian, and it's only going to get worse for Palestinians. And please don't give me the "human shields" crap. It is completely impossible that Israel has enough verified Hamas targets to be dropping 1,000 bombs a day for 6 days now with no sign of stopping. Everyone, even Israel, agrees that this is terror bombing.

Because it would be in as bad taste as hounding American posters about the casualties in Afghanistan in 2001. The attacked party gets leeway the attacker doesn't.

Besides, no one is stalking pro-Palestinian posters demanding they condemn it, because 90% of the pro-Palestinian posters were horrified. They're stalking a select few vile war-crime deniers.

Not sure if you forgot about this or not, but Fuzzy literally was, albeit not in this thread

[NOVA Green]

Surprised that nobody on this thread has mentioned Former President Donald J. Trump's recent statement regarding the whole situation:

"Former U.S. President Donald Trump on Wednesday sharply criticized Israel for not participating in the assassination of Iranian General Qassem Soleimani, saying Israel needs to “straighten themselves out” following the Hamas attacks.

“I’ll never forget that Bibi Netanyahu let us down. That was a very terrible thing, I’ll say that. So when I see sometimes the intelligence - you talk about the intelligence, you talk about the things that went wrong over the last week - they’ve got to straighten it out, because they’re fighting potentially a very big force. They’re fighting potentially Iran, and when they have people saying the wrong things, everything’s being digested by these people because they’re vicious and they’re smart.”

Granted Trump is a self-aggrandizing a**hole, who self boosts and is obviously a pathological liar, but the obvious question should be, what did he really do for Israel that both Democratic and Republicans  Presidents have since US-PRES Harry Truman first recognized Israel as an independent nation on 5/14/48, same day when Ben-Gurion declared independence.

Still, interesting on live TV, considering that Biden and Bibi appear to be uniting despite some significant policy differences.

Trump does not appear to be an individual who has mastered the art of "How to Make Friends and Influence People" business vibe.

Maybe he is thinking he has some political jiu-jitsu, where he can reinvent reality and claim he was the "Biggest friend of Israel", while shopping around US National Security secrets from a spy infested swamp called Mar-el-lago, after already showed classified Docs to Russia, including Israeli Iron Dome system stuff...



https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-10-11/ty-article-live/

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Israel cares more about enacting ethnic cleansing--literally, actually the Haley/Ryan solution--than saving their hostages.
https://twitter.com/OmarSShakir/status/1712675144961806452?t=8PuXqPYZ2wLBOTRLDYC...

[emailking]

It is an indisputable fact that children were killed in their cribs, bedrooms and shelters by Hamas. You can easily find footage of it in Telegram channels if you have the constitution for it. Does it really matter whether they were shot, burned alive or beheaded?

Earlier today I stumbled across a photo of the remains of a baby burned alive in its crib in Kfar Aza. One of the most horrifying and despicable things I have ever seen.

Ari Melber showed this photo on his show too (after giving several warnings of what was coming). Horrifying.

[emailking]

Surprised that nobody on this thread has mentioned Former President Donald J. Trump's recent statement regarding the whole situation:

There are several threads on USGD on Trump's bizarre statements in the wake of this attack, which may be why it's not being discussed here too I guess.

[dead0man]

Some posters here truly believe that Israeli lives are simply more precious than Palestinian lives.

even Hamas and Fatah know Israeli lives are worth more than Palestinians.  There are two ways you can tell:
1.how they (Fatah and Hamas) treat Palestinians (if you cared about the lives of Palestinians, you certainly wouldn't do what Hamas did last week)
2.every prisoner exchange they fully expect to get thousands of terrorists let out of prison in exchange for a single Israeli corpse

[Ferguson97]

Hamas telling people not to leave.

[Velasco]

Yesterday someone in the moderators team (thank you!) decided I was using "excessive hyperbole" referring to the Israeli government revenge on the Gaza population. Besides condemning the Hamas slaughter of civilians (I don't pay attention to morons claiming that's an act of resistance, it's a war crime), many people with knowledge pn this question and concerned at human lives have been warning about it. Looking at the most recent news only confirms that the worst is yet to come. 500 children murdered in Gaza so far (the body count will rise)

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

The IDF publishing what is probably a PoW execution video seems to have slipped under the radar:

https://twitter.com/manniefabian/status/1711796259315396793
Similarly, all manner of war crimes committed against on and off-duty soldiers by Hamas in the initial assault have been lost in the deluge of reporting (written off as “soldiers slain in their beds”).

A reminder that whenever civilian carnage dominates the headlines, atrocities against combatants are likely even worse. Of course concern for civilians should be higher, but the soldiers are human, too - communities in Gaza and Israel will have to reckon with the survivors (who will, no doubt, have been changed) after the conflict ends.

[Meclazine for Israel]

I don’t see how this ends in anything other than a Sack of Carthage situation.

For those of us who are historically inept.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Carthage_(Third_Punic_War)

[Velasco]

dominates the headlines, atrocities against combatants are likely even worse. Of course concern for civilians should be higher, but the soldiers are human, too - communities in Gaza and Israel will have to reckon with the survivors (who will, no doubt, have been changed) after the conflict ends.

Soldiers are human beings with guns, so they can repeal attacks from a group of armed people. In a situation of war , soldiers and/or combatants from two opposite banda kill each other. Hamas and the state of Israel are said to be at war. When a group of armed people (soldiers or combatants) attacks and/or targets unarmed civilians, it's a crime of war

[TiltsAreUnderrated]

dominates the headlines, atrocities against combatants are likely even worse. Of course concern for civilians should be higher, but the soldiers are human, too - communities in Gaza and Israel will have to reckon with the survivors (who will, no doubt, have been changed) after the conflict ends.

Soldiers are human beings with guns, so they can repeal attacks from a group of armed people. In a situation of war , soldiers and/or combatants from two opposite banda kill each other. Hamas and the state of Israel are said to be at war. When a group of armed people (soldiers or combatants) attacks and/or targets unarmed civilians, it's a crime of war

Of course civilian casualties worse than military ones (enemy military casualties are almost always necessary in war), but there are still things you shouldn’t do to enemy soldiers just because “they can defend themselves”. Combatants are not only combatants - eventually, the veteran survivors will (re-)engage with their communities, and if they have been brutalised by war crimes, the outcomes will be worse for everyone in the long run.