Israel-Gaza war

[Vosem]

"Moving people across the border" isn't a reasonable solution here anyway. The Egyptian government does not want to take them and they are not inclined to go there for a zillion reasons. Even if the Egyptians' cooperation were established, to force them to move you'd have to reoccupy the territory anyway. Triggering a refugee crisis that Egypt needs to deal with would be a very hostile and unjustified act on the part of the Israeli government.

Which just goes back to the question of how exactly reoccupation can be done. At a certain point, developed countries do not tolerate expansionist genocidal governments, and where those governments have made the destruction of a particular city a fait accompli, as most famously happened in Dresden, where leaving the city intact while destroying German transport and communication networks was not possible, then those cities have been destroyed.

If there is not a way to destroy Hamas without leveling Gaza, then Gaza should be leveled. If there is -- I observe the PFLP basically organizationally no longer exists, and Jenin and Nablus did not have to be destroyed in 2002 -- then they should do that.

[Meclazine for Israel]

.... advocate for ethnic cleansing of Arabs in the Gaza Strip, with all their land being redistributed among Israeli settlers. What about that have I misunderstood or mischaracterized?

You cannot play the high moral ground with General MacArthur. He is actually suggesting some ideas.

This is what you wrote about 12 hours ago to our Jewish member HNV1 on the ground in Israel.

Maybe they should send you to Sinai instead. You people already made it out once, so you can do it again.

You cannot play both sides of the same coin. You know exactly what you are talking about, then flipping other people's comments upside down.

Jewish = "You people"

What does the rest of this quote actually mean?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Long term there needs to be a peace deal. The Arabs attacked Israel in 1973 and even though Israel won the war, they realized that they weren't invulnerable and made peace with Egypt and Jordan in 1978.

OK so tell me about this peace deal that Hamas is going to accept.  It's not going to happen.  Hamas is not a rational actor, it is a terrorist group whose singular purpose is the extermination of all Jews and the conquest of Israel.  To veto any other solutions because you're still holding out delusional hope that Hamas and Israel can come to some sort of peace deal is just childish thinking.  Of course, we all know you don't actually believe this is possible.

I mean neither Hamas nor Likud are likely to come to a peace deal. I'm sure if it was somehow magically up to Fatah and  Meretz, they could figure something out.

[Alben Barkley]

We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, "Save me!" He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them.

This in the aftermath of the Yom Kippur War 50 years ago.

This time, however, I think the Palestinian militants not only won't have the Russians backing them, they also won't even have the support of the Middle Eastern states except Iran. They're truly f--ked.

And aren't you just salivating over the coming mass death?

Not at all. I said in this very thread that what's coming won't be pretty at all and will be tragic for all parties involved. I'm tired of your slander of people who disagree with you, and this one seems especially ironic as you seem to have all but been salivating at the mass death Hamas already caused.

Also: I expect you'll be giving up your home in 300+ year "occupied" Philadelphia to a Native American any day now, right?

No?

Then maybe we should be realistic and stop arguing about land claims from the distant past. What's done is done. Whether it was right or wrong, and there's plenty of reason for the Israelis to claim they were wronged first and worse anyway, it's not productive or practical to argue about it now, any more than it would be productive or practical for all white Americans to go back to Europe and leave the land to the Natives. Land has been conquered for literally all of human history, and the solution to that is to stop doing it going forward and to stop caring so much about arbitrary borders. NOT to attack people for what their ancestors did decades or centuries ago, with the implication that you want to try to right a perceived wrong by committing another horrible wrong yourself. As if that's ever worked out in history.

And it's very "funny" how it's always the Jews who seem to get this special treatment from people like you compared to every other nation and people in the world, including your own. They're somehow the "neighborhood bully" for daring to defend their own people, who have been historically wronged worse for longer than arguably anyone else on the planet. Very "funny" indeed, how people like you clearly have zero empathy whatsoever for the victims of the Holocaust or the idea that a people so long hated and persecuted would dare to want a homeland for themselves on their ancestral land. They didn't even demand all of it at first, they just wanted to exist; the only reason their borders even expanded was they were ganged up on by Arab neighbors whose stated aim was to wipe them from the face of the Earth, and against all odds they WON. Multiple times! Then those genocidal anti-Semites and terrorists play the victim card and people like you in the West just lap it up.

Sad!

[GMantis]

To start, at least in the short term, Israel will need to invade and occupy Gaza, respecting the property rights of the innocent civilians you seem to take such pleasure in butchering as much as is realistically possible.

Mods, please delete this.  I have never said anything of the sort, nor have I ever given any indication of anything of the sort.  It's astoundingly inappropriate for someone to write something like this.

This is just describing honestly what your proposal of carrying out the worst ethnic cleansing in decades would entail without the pretty words you're obfuscating it with. You can't force two million people out of their homes and then force them into a region that isn't even close to being able to provide for them without at least tens of thousands  - or most likely hundreds of thousands = of casualties. And the atrocities carried out in the process would greatly overshadow Hamas' actions.

[Not Me, Us]

What about that have I misunderstood or mischaracterized?

You cannot play the high moral ground.

This is what you wrote about 12 hours ago to our Jewish members on the ground in Israel.

Maybe they should send you to Sinai instead. You people already made it out once, so you can do it again.

You cannot play both sides of the same coin. You know exactly what you are talking about, then flipping people's comments of much less venom upside down.

Jewish = "You people"

What does the rest of this quote actually mean?

I publicly apologized for that comment because it was out of line and antisemitic, said out of anger to a user arguing for the same thing GMac and others are arguing for. There is no excuse for it nor will I attempt to make one. Whether that apology is accepted is not up to me, but it was completely unacceptable and I own it 100%. That does not change the fact forcibly deporting the people in Gaza or leveling the entire city a la Dresden as Vosem entertains above is vile and there is no justification for it. I will not stop calling that out, and anyone who seriously entertains something like that is a deeply evil person.

[Meclazine for Israel]

What about that have I misunderstood or mischaracterized?

You cannot play the high moral ground.

This is what you wrote about 12 hours ago to our Jewish members on the ground in Israel.

Maybe they should send you to Sinai instead. You people already made it out once, so you can do it again.

You cannot play both sides of the same coin. You know exactly what you are talking about, then flipping people's comments of much less venom upside down.

Jewish = "You people"

What does the rest of this quote actually mean?

I publicly apologized for that comment because it was out of line and antisemitic, said out of anger to a user arguing for the same thing GMac and others are arguing for. There is no excuse for it nor will I attempt to make one. Whether that apology is accepted is not up to me, but it was completely unacceptable and I own it 100%. That does not change the fact forcibly deporting the people in Gaza or leveling the entire city a la Dresden as Vosem entertains above is vile and there is no justification for it. I will not stop calling that out, and anyone who seriously entertains something like that is a deeply evil person.

I don't think we should be responding negatively to people on the ground in a war zone, be it Ukraine, Bosnia, Afghanistan or Israel.

There are video'd atrocities of the killing and kidnapping of woman and children in this conflict from Islamic terrorists. They are gleeful in their murderous activities.

There is a time and a place.

Laki gave our Jewish members a "once over" in the first 5 pages of this thread. Just pouring petrol on them as the attacks were occuring.

It's just bad timing. Apology accepted.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

We have offered them (the Arabs) a sensible way for so many years. But no, they wanted to fight. Fine! We gave them technology, the latest, the kind even Vietnam didn't have. They had double superiority in tanks and aircraft, triple in artillery, and in air defense and anti-tank weapons they had absolute supremacy. And what? Once again they were beaten. Once again they scrammed. Once again they screamed for us to come save them. Sadat woke me up in the middle of the night twice over the phone, "Save me!" He demanded to send Soviet troops, and immediately! No! We are not going to fight for them.

This in the aftermath of the Yom Kippur War 50 years ago.

This time, however, I think the Palestinian militants not only won't have the Russians backing them, they also won't even have the support of the Middle Eastern states except Iran. They're truly f--ked.

And aren't you just salivating over the coming mass death?

Not at all. I said in this very thread that what's coming won't be pretty at all and will be tragic for all parties involved. I'm tired of your slander of people who disagree with you, and this one seems especially ironic as you seem to have all but been salivating at the mass death Hamas already caused.

Also: I expect you'll be giving up your home in 300+ year "occupied" Philadelphia to a Native American any day now, right?

No?

I don't care about the rest of this onanistic nonsense, but the biggest difference, beyond the fact that I do not think all Jews in Israel should be deported to their countries of origin or their parents' or grandparents' countries of origin, is that while the Lenape have tragically been all but wiped out outside Oklahoma, millions the victims of the Nakba of 1948 and those left homeless by the ongoing illegal settlements in the West Bank and the bombing of the Gaza Strip are still alive. Many, in fact, still have land deeds from when the region was under Ottoman rule, which is why Israel had to pass an act in 1950 expropriating the homes and farms and businesses they left behind.

And I know for a fact you wouldn't take this "get over your ethnic cleansing" stance with regard to the Russians who have been settling in abandoned homes in Mariupol with the support of Vladimir Putin.

[HillGoose]

Let's not forget how they were celebrating in the streets of Gaza on 9/11.

Good to hear the US is moving the Gerald Ford nearby to ensure the defense of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Hopefully it will deter Iran from making any stupid decisions.

[NOVA Green]

Assuming this is borne out, and, given Iran’s President endorsed Hamas’ approach this morning… it feels like a ramp towards further escalation.
https://twitter.com/WSJ/status/1711120355585089821

US Carrier fleet will be in the zone within a day or so....

We have no idea about the intel sharing agreements going on, but pretty clear the USA is sharing all sorts of relative intelligence with Israel and various regional allies.

Iran escalates and then Israeli Airforce responds, next thing you know that F-16s will be hitting Iranian Proxy military formations in the event Iran attempts to expand the conflict.

[Morning in Atlas]

To start, at least in the short term, Israel will need to invade and occupy Gaza, respecting the property rights of the innocent civilians you seem to take such pleasure in butchering as much as is realistically possible.

Mods, please delete this.  I have never said anything of the sort, nor have I ever given any indication of anything of the sort.  It's astoundingly inappropriate for someone to write something like this.

This is just describing honestly what your proposal of carrying out the worst ethnic cleansing in decades would entail without the pretty words you're obfuscating it with. You can't force two million people out of their homes and then force them into a region that isn't even close to being able to provide for them without at least tens of thousands  - or most likely hundreds of thousands = of casualties. And the atrocities carried out in the process would greatly overshadow Hamas' actions.

jfc I've never been a fan of the guy but I never expected him to defend genocide in a million years

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

Let's not forget how they were celebrating in the streets of Gaza on 9/11.

Good to hear the US is moving the Gerald Ford nearby to ensure the defense of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Hopefully it will deter Iran from making any stupid decisions.

Oh, don't go down this rabbit hole.
https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1

[Meclazine for Israel]

Let's not forget how they were celebrating in the streets of Gaza on 9/11.

Good to hear the US is moving the Gerald Ford nearby to ensure the defense of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Hopefully it will deter Iran from making any stupid decisions.

I remember watching the Palestinians that day who were one of only a few people who celebrated 9-11 publically.

To be fair, I don't think they knew what had happened. They were told to celebrate something which they did not understand.

Damascus Gate Celebrations

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UucjbGmJILk

"Palestinian men, women and children chanted in jubilation after terrorists crashed two planes into the World Trade Center causing them to collapse on Tuesday morning."

When I saw there were children celebrating, you realise that they are not the problem. Once the Palestinians realised that the attacks were much more significant, they quickly nullified their celebrations.

"Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat called the attack a "terrible incident," sending his condolences to the people of the United States."

I know Palestinian people, and I remember their thoughts at the time. Their overall mood was not celebration. They said in that weird loud way the following to me:

"September 11 was one day in history. Every day for us is September 11!"

[All Along The Watchtower]

Let's not forget how they were celebrating in the streets of Gaza on 9/11.

Good to hear the US is moving the Gerald Ford nearby to ensure the defense of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Hopefully it will deter Iran from making any stupid decisions.

Oh, don't go down this rabbit hole.
https://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=123885&page=1

Better articles:

https://www.nytimes.com/2001/10/08/nyregion/5-young-israelis-caught-in-net-of-suspicion.html

https://www.thejc.com/news/world/who-were-the-dancing-israelis-of-911-66kkm1alwQldXDyVmIwDMc

[patzer]

There is no civilian administration that is possible in Gaza that is friendly to Israel. Establishing rigged elections and hoping westerners buy it isn't gonna work.

Would a Fatah/PLO regime not be more peaceful with Israel than a Hamas regime? I don't what the outcome of a fair election would be, perhaps they might just elect Hamas so Israel could install Fatah undemocratically and it could govern in tandem with the West Bank.

Fatah/PLO explicitly funds lone wolf terrorism via the pay to slay policy so you wouldn't want to back them.

Best head of an interim civilian administration who I can think of would be Mansour Abbas.

[Aurelius2]

https://twitter.com/DrDavidInDC/status/1711126327250534484

[jojoju1998]

There is no civilian administration that is possible in Gaza that is friendly to Israel. Establishing rigged elections and hoping westerners buy it isn't gonna work.

Would a Fatah/PLO regime not be more peaceful with Israel than a Hamas regime? I don't what the outcome of a fair election would be, perhaps they might just elect Hamas so Israel could install Fatah undemocratically and it could govern in tandem with the West Bank.

Fatah/PLO explicitly funds lone wolf terrorism via the pay to slay policy so you wouldn't want to back them.

Best head of an interim civilian administration who I can think of would be Mansour Abbas.

He might be considered to be too Westernized though by a majority of Palestinians.


And perhaps too Israeli.

[Snowstalker Mk. II]

https://twitter.com/DrDavidInDC/status/1711126327250534484

[Hindsight was 2020]

How Israel treated Palestinians for decades has been abhorrent and they do deserve there how actual nation but what Hamas has done is disgusting, disgraceful and unjustifiable and Israeli has every military/security right to go in and wipe out Hamas for this. It’s a depressing situation all around

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

There is no civilian administration that is possible in Gaza that is friendly to Israel. Establishing rigged elections and hoping westerners buy it isn't gonna work.

Would a Fatah/PLO regime not be more peaceful with Israel than a Hamas regime? I don't what the outcome of a fair election would be, perhaps they might just elect Hamas so Israel could install Fatah undemocratically and it could govern in tandem with the West Bank.

Fatah/PLO explicitly funds lone wolf terrorism via the pay to slay policy so you wouldn't want to back them.

Best head of an interim civilian administration who I can think of would be Mansour Abbas.

PFLP or bust.

The PFLP declared that its goal was to "create a people's democratic Palestine, where Arabs and Jews would live without discrimination, a state without classes and national oppression, a state which allows Arabs and Jews to develop their national culture."

Obviously unrealistic today, I know this. But one can dream.

[NOVA Green]

The United States is moving the USS Gerald Ford aircraft carrier and its accompanying warships (currently in the Mediterranean) towards Israel. It has a carrier strike group of 5000 soldiers and several aircrafts on deck. This has got to be extremely rare.

Thinking something like (200) fighter jets are on that Carrier.

Obviously this is more of a message to Iran than anyone else, since US is extremely unlikely to directly intervene in what is currently going on in Gaza & Southern Israel.

If Iran were to choose to mobilize their proxies from South Lebanon in a massive way, I would not be surprised if US military assets might be involved in combat operations.

Still Iran does not have direct control over Hezbollah military choices, but would imagine that they would be able to reign them in if it looks like Israeli and US Air assets will start directly targeting their  proxies, with after all the whole Saudi Arabia & Iranian peace deal over the war in Yemen.

The Carrier has to stay at a distance though, as seen from the Ukraine War, anti-ship missiles can sink large ships from quite a distance these days.

Not quite sure what you are saying here mate..

What country or political military formation would attempt to sink a US Aircraft Carrier and associated fleet?

Unless it is Russian sub in the Med, where I believe most of them are currently tracked, difficult to see how this works.

Last time I checked nobody is at war with the usa and proxy wars being proxy wars means that NATO controls the MED.

If you are somehow trying to claim that because Ukraine successfully used Anti-Ship missiles to destroy a Russian Naval Cruiser, that this means that Hamas will somehow take out a us carrier fleet, you have obviously not studied or understand military technology, let alone the actual region which we are discussing.

Does Hamas have long range anti-ship rockets like Ukraine developed early in war 2.0?

Even if would they actually attempt to assault US Naval fleets?

Dude... you are completely out of your element Donny.

[Aurelius2]

https://twitter.com/mattyglesias/status/1711073212006543726

[NOVA Green]

There is no civilian administration that is possible in Gaza that is friendly to Israel. Establishing rigged elections and hoping westerners buy it isn't gonna work.

Would a Fatah/PLO regime not be more peaceful with Israel than a Hamas regime? I don't what the outcome of a fair election would be, perhaps they might just elect Hamas so Israel could install Fatah undemocratically and it could govern in tandem with the West Bank.

Fatah/PLO explicitly funds lone wolf terrorism via the pay to slay policy so you wouldn't want to back them.

Best head of an interim civilian administration who I can think of would be Mansour Abbas.

PFLP or bust.

The PFLP declared that its goal was to "create a people's democratic Palestine, where Arabs and Jews would live without discrimination, a state without classes and national oppression, a state which allows Arabs and Jews to develop their national culture."

Obviously unrealistic today, I know this. But one can dream.

PFLP obviously has its own roots as a Marxist secular political-military formation from way back in the dayz.

Obviously these times are long done and gone, even what is left within the Secular Leftist Palestinian Political-Military formations from times gone past.

Sold a copy of a university publication book regarding the PFLP to my older sister, who was Orthodox Jewish, when i needed a few extra $$$ to pay rent.

Obviously many Israeli's might still consider some of the PLO peace agreements to have been done in bad faith... but almost like northern ireland one can't expect immediate peace agreements to hold when there is so little trust between both parties to the conflict.

So here is a song from a legendary Irish artist, lead singer of the Pogues, after he split off when his band mates let him go.

Sectarian militant leftist organizations in the '70s / '80s have been mostly eliminated for various reasons including increased government repression, combined with the lack of support from the USSR after the fall of the Berlin Wall.

[OSR stands with Israel]

https://twitter.com/DrDavidInDC/status/1711126327250534484

If that person is not a citizen then they should be deported

[NOVA Green]

https://twitter.com/DrDavidInDC/status/1711126327250534484

If that person is not a citizen then they should be deported

Not to pry, but if you are claiming for deportation of individuals based upon their country of origin, where exactly does your path to American Citizenship arrive from?

Personally, I think about some Great-Grandparents originated from including Ireland in the late 1880s at a time where "Thousands Are Sailing"...

Bit amazing how sometimes people convert to a new religion they become hardcore evangelicals, just like when people move to a new country try to adopt to being the most hardcore nationalists.

Without calling you out directly OSR, I strongly suspect that we have many Mexican-American Nationals living in Oregon for much longer than he ever set foot on the shores of America who will likely never achieve American Citizenship, because of messed up US immigration policy.

We can't help it that current US law allows people to buy citizenship for $1 Million that add very little value, while meanwhile we have a massive shortage of workers in all essential industries.