Israel-Gaza war

[pppolitics]

...and why should it be the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who are forcefully deported?

The Palestinians were there before Israel was even a country.

He's calling for ethnic cleansing. You're responding with your own call for ethnic cleansing,  just against the group you find to be worse. There doesn't seem much point in engaging with someone like you, but your question has an easy answer.

Israel has given the world more reason to care.

Part of that is that Israel has better technology and a bigger economy, which means its loss would directly impact other nations more.

Part of that is that Israel shares intelligence with other countries, helping them stop terror attacks to increase goodwill and reliance.

The biggest part is that Israel is a nuclear power. If the Arab world was ever about to destroy them or someone like you had the power to ethnically cleanse them, they could kill tens or hundreds of millions of people.

The Palestinians have nothing remotely equivalent to offer the rest of the world.

They don't have an economic good like Taiwan's semiconductor industry. They're broke.

They don't have cultural similarities that could engender greater sympathy in the West. In fact, they're perceived as Muslim extremists, a group with whom the West has a strong mutual disdain.

It should be no one. But if it's someone, it would be them because they're SOL.

...and why should it be the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who are forcefully deported?

The Palestinians were there before Israel was even a concept.

I oppose the mass expulsion of Arabs from Gaza (shocking that this even needs to be said), but this is a very bad argument. One could just as well say that the Israelis were there before Palestine was even a concept.

The correct answer is that forceful deportations are not a valid way of solving the problem, not that the Jews are the ones who "deserve" to be deported.

Greater post than my rambling.

Are you saying that one group of people has more value than others?

[Aurelius2]

...and why should it be the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who are forcefully deported?

The Palestinians were there before Israel was even a concept.

I oppose the mass expulsion of Arabs from Gaza (shocking that this even needs to be said), but this is a very bad argument. One could just as well say that the Israelis were there before Palestine was even a concept.

The correct answer is that forceful deportations are not a valid way of solving the problem, not that the Jews are the ones who "deserve" to be deported.

I was just pointing out how flawed his argument is and that I could just easily flip it around.

Yeah, sure. You've been cheering on these Hamas terrorist attacks from the very start and whatabouting the torture and murder of children. Spare me.

[Horus]

...and why should it be the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who are forcefully deported?

The Palestinians were there before Israel was even a country.

He's calling for ethnic cleansing. You're responding with your own call for ethnic cleansing,  just against the group you find to be worse. There doesn't seem much point in engaging with someone like you, but your question has an easy answer.

Israel has given the world more reason to care.

Part of that is that Israel has better technology and a bigger economy, which means its loss would directly impact other nations more.

Part of that is that Israel shares intelligence with other countries, helping them stop terror attacks to increase goodwill and reliance.

The biggest part is that Israel is a nuclear power. If the Arab world was ever about to destroy them or someone like you had the power to ethnically cleanse them, they could kill tens or hundreds of millions of people.

The Palestinians have nothing remotely equivalent to offer the rest of the world.

They don't have an economic good like Taiwan's semiconductor industry. They're broke.

They don't have cultural similarities that could engender greater sympathy in the West. In fact, they're perceived as Muslim extremists, a group with whom the West has a strong mutual disdain.

It should be no one. But if it's someone, it would be them because they're SOL.

...and why should it be the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who are forcefully deported?

The Palestinians were there before Israel was even a concept.

I oppose the mass expulsion of Arabs from Gaza (shocking that this even needs to be said), but this is a very bad argument. One could just as well say that the Israelis were there before Palestine was even a concept.

The correct answer is that forceful deportations are not a valid way of solving the problem, not that the Jews are the ones who "deserve" to be deported.

Greater post than my rambling.

Are you saying that one group of people has more value than others?

That appears to be exactly what he is saying, yes. Israelis have cool tech so they deserve to live more.

[jaichind]

Oil up 3%, Treasuries futures up, US equities futures down

[Aurelius2]

...and why should it be the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who are forcefully deported?

The Palestinians were there before Israel was even a country.

He's calling for ethnic cleansing. You're responding with your own call for ethnic cleansing,  just against the group you find to be worse. There doesn't seem much point in engaging with someone like you, but your question has an easy answer.

Israel has given the world more reason to care.

Part of that is that Israel has better technology and a bigger economy, which means its loss would directly impact other nations more.

Part of that is that Israel shares intelligence with other countries, helping them stop terror attacks to increase goodwill and reliance.

The biggest part is that Israel is a nuclear power. If the Arab world was ever about to destroy them or someone like you had the power to ethnically cleanse them, they could kill tens or hundreds of millions of people.

The Palestinians have nothing remotely equivalent to offer the rest of the world.

They don't have an economic good like Taiwan's semiconductor industry. They're broke.

They don't have cultural similarities that could engender greater sympathy in the West. In fact, they're perceived as Muslim extremists, a group with whom the West has a strong mutual disdain.

It should be no one. But if it's someone, it would be them because they're SOL.

...and why should it be the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who are forcefully deported?

The Palestinians were there before Israel was even a concept.

I oppose the mass expulsion of Arabs from Gaza (shocking that this even needs to be said), but this is a very bad argument. One could just as well say that the Israelis were there before Palestine was even a concept.

The correct answer is that forceful deportations are not a valid way of solving the problem, not that the Jews are the ones who "deserve" to be deported.

Greater post than my rambling.

Are you saying that one group of people has more value than others?

That appears to be exactly what he is saying, yes. Israelis have cool tech so they deserve to live more.

Yeah, I'm very pro-Israel but you won't see me using that sort of cold utilitarian logic, because it is demonic.

[pppolitics]

...and why should it be the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who are forcefully deported?

The Palestinians were there before Israel was even a concept.

I oppose the mass expulsion of Arabs from Gaza (shocking that this even needs to be said), but this is a very bad argument. One could just as well say that the Israelis were there before Palestine was even a concept.

The correct answer is that forceful deportations are not a valid way of solving the problem, not that the Jews are the ones who "deserve" to be deported.

I was just pointing out how flawed his argument is and that I could just easily flip it around.

Yeah, sure. You've been cheering on these Hamas terrorist attacks from the very start and whatabouting the torture and murder of children. Spare me.

No, I said that this (attack) was bound to happen.

[Horus]

...and why should it be the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who are forcefully deported?

The Palestinians were there before Israel was even a country.

He's calling for ethnic cleansing. You're responding with your own call for ethnic cleansing,  just against the group you find to be worse. There doesn't seem much point in engaging with someone like you, but your question has an easy answer.

Israel has given the world more reason to care.

Part of that is that Israel has better technology and a bigger economy, which means its loss would directly impact other nations more.

Part of that is that Israel shares intelligence with other countries, helping them stop terror attacks to increase goodwill and reliance.

The biggest part is that Israel is a nuclear power. If the Arab world was ever about to destroy them or someone like you had the power to ethnically cleanse them, they could kill tens or hundreds of millions of people.

The Palestinians have nothing remotely equivalent to offer the rest of the world.

They don't have an economic good like Taiwan's semiconductor industry. They're broke.

They don't have cultural similarities that could engender greater sympathy in the West. In fact, they're perceived as Muslim extremists, a group with whom the West has a strong mutual disdain.

It should be no one. But if it's someone, it would be them because they're SOL.

...and why should it be the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who are forcefully deported?

The Palestinians were there before Israel was even a concept.

I oppose the mass expulsion of Arabs from Gaza (shocking that this even needs to be said), but this is a very bad argument. One could just as well say that the Israelis were there before Palestine was even a concept.

The correct answer is that forceful deportations are not a valid way of solving the problem, not that the Jews are the ones who "deserve" to be deported.

Greater post than my rambling.

Are you saying that one group of people has more value than others?

That appears to be exactly what he is saying, yes. Israelis have cool tech so they deserve to live more.

Yeah, I'm very pro-Israel but you won't see me using that sort of cold utilitarian logic, because it is demonic.

And for that I respect you. We disagree strongly on this matter, but you have held true to your morals and are ethically consistent.

[pppolitics]

...and why should it be the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who are forcefully deported?

The Palestinians were there before Israel was even a country.

He's calling for ethnic cleansing. You're responding with your own call for ethnic cleansing,  just against the group you find to be worse. There doesn't seem much point in engaging with someone like you, but your question has an easy answer.

Israel has given the world more reason to care.

Part of that is that Israel has better technology and a bigger economy, which means its loss would directly impact other nations more.

Part of that is that Israel shares intelligence with other countries, helping them stop terror attacks to increase goodwill and reliance.

The biggest part is that Israel is a nuclear power. If the Arab world was ever about to destroy them or someone like you had the power to ethnically cleanse them, they could kill tens or hundreds of millions of people.

The Palestinians have nothing remotely equivalent to offer the rest of the world.

They don't have an economic good like Taiwan's semiconductor industry. They're broke.

They don't have cultural similarities that could engender greater sympathy in the West. In fact, they're perceived as Muslim extremists, a group with whom the West has a strong mutual disdain.

It should be no one. But if it's someone, it would be them because they're SOL.

...and why should it be the Palestinians, not the Israelis, who are forcefully deported?

The Palestinians were there before Israel was even a concept.

I oppose the mass expulsion of Arabs from Gaza (shocking that this even needs to be said), but this is a very bad argument. One could just as well say that the Israelis were there before Palestine was even a concept.

The correct answer is that forceful deportations are not a valid way of solving the problem, not that the Jews are the ones who "deserve" to be deported.

Greater post than my rambling.

Are you saying that one group of people has more value than others?

That appears to be exactly what he is saying, yes. Israelis have cool tech so they deserve to live more.

That's what I thought.

[WalterWhite]

That appears to be exactly what he is saying, yes. Israelis have cool tech so they deserve to live more.

Yeah, I'm very pro-Israel but you won't see me using that sort of cold utilitarian logic, because it is demonic.

And for that I respect you. We disagree strongly on this matter, but you have held true to your morals and are ethically consistent.

Fair assessment with that read, but I do assure you that is not my intent. I don't believe either side deserves to live more and believe ethnic cleansing calls here are horrifying.

I was instead saying that I believe geopolitics would make that bad outcome more likely.

I doubt the U.N. would allow ethnic cleansing of EITHER Israelis or Palestinians. From a geopolitical standpoint, it simply would not happen unless there is a MAJOR gas leak at the U.N. headquarters.

[Alben Barkley]

Some posters here seem to agree with an unironic interpretation of Bob Dylan's "Neighborhood Bully:"

Well, the neighborhood bully, he's just one man
His enemies say he's on their land
They got him outnumbered about a million to one
He got no place to escape to, no place to run
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully he just lives to survive
He's criticized and condemned for being alive
He's not supposed to fight back, he's supposed to have thick skin
He's supposed to lay down and die when his door is kicked in
He's the neighborhood bully.

The neighborhood bully been driven out of every land
He's wandered the earth an exiled man
Seen his family scattered, his people hounded and torn
He's always on trial for just being born
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he knocked out a lynch mob, he was criticized
Old women condemned him, said he should apologize
Then he destroyed a bomb factory, nobody was glad
The bombs were meant for him. He was supposed to feel bad
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, the chances are against it, and the odds are slim
That he'll live by the rules that the world makes for him
'Cause there's a noose at his neck and a gun at his back
And a license to kill him is given out to every maniac
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he got no allies to really speak of
What he gets he must pay for, he don't get it out of love
He buys obsolete weapons and he won't be denied
But no one sends flesh and blood to fight by his side
He's the neighborhood bully.

Well, he's surrounded by pacifists who all want peace
They pray for it nightly that the bloodshed must cease
Now, they wouldn't hurt a fly. To hurt one they would weep
They lay and they wait for this bully to fall asleep
He's the neighborhood bully.

Every empire that's enslaved him is gone
Egypt and Rome, even the great Babylon
He's made a garden of paradise in the desert sand
In bed with nobody, under no one's command
He's the neighborhood bully.

Now his holiest books have been trampled upon
No contract that he signed was worth that what it was written on
He took the crumbs of the world and he turned it into wealth
Took sickness and disease and he turned it into health
He's the neighborhood bully.

What's anybody indebted to him for?
Nothing, they say. He just likes to cause war
Pride and prejudice and superstition indeed
They wait for this bully like a dog waits for feed
He's the neighborhood bully.

What has he done to wear so many scars?
Does he change the course of rivers? Does he pollute the moon and stars?
Neighborhood bully, standing on the hill
Running out the clock, time standing still
Neighborhood bully.

[Not Me, Us]

That appears to be exactly what he is saying, yes. Israelis have cool tech so they deserve to live more.

Yeah, I'm very pro-Israel but you won't see me using that sort of cold utilitarian logic, because it is demonic.

And for that I respect you. We disagree strongly on this matter, but you have held true to your morals and are ethically consistent.

Fair assessment with that read, but I do assure you that is not my intent. I don't believe either side deserves to live more and believe ethnic cleansing calls here are horrifying.

I was instead saying that I believe geopolitics would make that bad outcome more likely.

I doubt the U.N. would allow ethnic cleansing of EITHER Israelis or Palestinians. From a geopolitical standpoint, it simply would not happen unless there is a MAJOR gas leak at the U.N. headquarters.

The UN has absolutely zero ability to do sh** about f***, so what they have to say can be disregarded.

[PSOL]

Israel started it by being a force for British colonization, stop using B. Diddy incorrectly

[Aurelius2]

Israel started it by being a force for British colonization, stop using B. Diddy incorrectly

Jews were making aliyah to Palestine long before the British got involved. Not to mention large Jewish communities in Tzfat, Tveria, Hebron and elsewhere that have been there for centuries, ever since the Spanish expulsions. Tzfat was renowned as the center of kabbalistic thought in the 1500s.

[All Along The Watchtower]

Israel started it by being a force for British colonization, stop using B. Diddy incorrectly

Pathetic sh-tposting even for you.

[PSOL]

Israel started it by being a force for British colonization, stop using B. Diddy incorrectly

Jews were making aliyah to Palestine long before the British got involved. Not to mention large Jewish communities in Tzfat, Tveria, Hebron and elsewhere that have been there for centuries, ever since the Spanish expulsions.

Haha, most of them came when the Brits colonized the place and since. Some few expatriates and Sephardic Jews don't account for the Labor Zionist movement and exiles from post-Nazi Europe. Israel's entire governance structure and political makeup is directly from British administration.

[Senator Incitatus]

Just overwhelmed by a feeling of darkness in the world right now. Things will get worse.

[All Along The Watchtower]

It is looking horrifying and bleak yes.

[NOVA Green]

I sincerely hope Hamas is going to release at least the women and children in the next 24 hours...If they care for the people of Gaza at all they should

Hamas is a TERRORIST ORGANIZATION that has no problems with violence against civilians to achieve its goals. There is no reality in which Hamas would release its captives.

Apologies if it has already been posted since am still working my way backwards through the thread.

Sounds like Islamic Jihad holds something like ~ (30) hostages.

This is a completely different political-military formation within the Palestinian National Liberation Movements...

IJ has historically long been more in the pocket of Iran than Hamas.

Iran however allegedly cut off funding in '15 because of the organizations neutrality during the war in Yemen.

Not quite sure how this all plays out within the context of Israeli hostages, or possibly those of other foreign nationalities, but it still important to state the distinction.

My current understanding is that IJ's current hostage demands is they will release all in exchange for all of their POWs in Israeli Prisons...

If IJ is holding American hostages these negotiations might play out a bit differently than Hamas hostages.

[patzer]

My hope is that Israel can fully assert control in Gaza swiftly, bring all Hamas members to justice, and establish a reasonable civilian administration for the people of Gaza.

[PSOL]

Hamas and Gazan society more generally does not want to have Israeli causus belli, they will get PIJ in line. Iran's control over their partners in Palestine are generally not as strong as one would think they are, that applies for most getting Iranian support outside special conditional exceptions in Iraq.

[jojoju1998]

Egypt should annex Gaza and Jordan should annex the West Bank. That's my proposal for peace.

[GMantis]

If 300 Israelis people are dead (the number is actually higher) that is 3 9/11s. Imagine if 9/11 wasn't just a plane attack though, but an invasion that also resulted in at least 1500 hostages and Americans being raped and murdered, including children, in their own homes. Can anyone who does not simply want the Israelis to give up and die tell me with a straight face that in that analogy America/Israel should just sit back and drop a couple of bombs and treat it like any other terrorist attack? If not, then what should Israel do? Should it occupy the equivalent of 80 million people forever, losing more of its own lives in the process to police people who think it not only okay but morally good to molest Israelis in the street?

If Israel can't exist without ethnically cleansing two million people, it doesn't deserve to exist. And I hope that if they actually go through with doing so, the US government grows some conscience and imposes crippling sanctions on them until they collapse utterly.

Israel does have a right to exist. I don't think how it originated was fair and correct, but the reality is the reality of today. We need to look in the future, and not grief/hold grudges over the past to an extreme extent because that's not going to improve lives either.

1967 borders with a contiguous border connecting Gaza & West Bank (preferrably through the South) would be fair, and transfer of Israeli people to Israel (who are willing) and Arab citizens/Palestinians (who want) to Palestine. And additionally some guarantees for good treatment of Arab citizens within Israel and vice versa. Though i think it's best if they live in separate states.

I definitely agree that Israel has a right to exist and after what happened yesterday, have the right to destroy Hamas. My objection to Israel is only in the case where the supposition that it can only exist by ethnically cleansing two million people is true, but I strongly disagree that it's true (as difficult it is to find an alternative right now).

The Gaza Strip has no future as a political entity.

Its people, regrettably, will need to be evacuated to Egypt and the city of Gaza likely destroyed. If not, the scenes unfolded over the past week will continue for another thousand years.

Israel is not absent of blame of course, indeed they deserve a lot of it, but what has transpired since the partition cannot be changed. We can only look ahead now.

This is genocidal rhetoric. I understand that tempers are running high now, and I truly do understand why, but can we please draw a line somewhere? The median age in Gaza is 18. If you endorse this you are endorsing the forcible expulsion or more likely death of mostly children.

This is not genocidal rhetoric.

The problem with Gaza is that it's too close to Israel.  It's a thorn penetrating up into Israel's territory.  Israel's racist, genocidal, Nazi enemies use it as a salient from which they have repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly launched attacks on Israeli civilians to try and conquer the country and wipe its citizens off the earth.

This is simply a strategic liability for Israel.  Gaza at this point isn't a proper city.  It's a military fort administered by terrorists.  It's the equivalent of saying Cuba should expel the Americans from Guantanamo.  Imagine if North Korea had a military base in the San Juan Islands that they used to constantly launch rockets and attacks on Seattle.  Would it be genocidal to say that the North Koreans should be expelled and the base destroyed?

Gaza is a completely failed city.  It's a sprawling morass of cheap concrete and rebar.  It's not like it's Jerusalem or some city that it's critically culturally important for an ethnic group to have access to.  It is not cultural genocide by any stretch to push the Arabs out of Gaza.

Frankly it would be better in the long run since under Israeli administration it could actually be built into a modern, humane, decent city, with the Islamic cultural heritage (a handful of mosques and gravesites) not only kept intact but preserved and made safe and available for pilgrimage and tourism.  Right now those mosques are used as safe hiding spots for Hamas terrorists, they know Israel won't bomb them because the international condemnation for destroying a cultural site would be too great.

.
I can't understand how someone who's horrified by what Hamas did (as I very much am) could support measures like removing two million people from their homeland that would be a war crime on a vastly greater scale. I hope it's just emotion caused in reaction to the horrific crime of Hamas (quite understandable) and not something you seriously consider a good idea.

[Comrade Funk]

Oil up 3%, Treasuries futures up, US equities futures down

I'm sure you're ecstatic. Anything for daddy Vlad

[Aurelius2]

My hope is that Israel can fully assert control in Gaza swiftly, bring all Hamas members to justice, and establish a reasonable civilian administration for the people of Gaza.

This is the ideal outcome. I fear that realities on the ground will make such a resolution impossible, but I pray that that shall not be the case.

[PSOL]

My hope is that Israel can fully assert control in Gaza swiftly, bring all Hamas members to justice, and establish a reasonable civilian administration for the people of Gaza.

This is the ideal outcome. I fear that realities on the ground will make such a resolution impossible, but I pray that that shall not be the case.

There is no civilian administration that is possible in Gaza that is friendly to Israel. Establishing rigged elections and hoping westerners buy it isn't gonna work.