Israel-Gaza war

[emailking]

Trump is blaming Biden:

Joe Biden’s ineptitude, weakness, and incompetence has led to this horrible attack on Israel, and it will only get worse. Just four years ago we had the signing of the historic Abraham Accords, and today we have an attack on Israel. What a difference a President makes!

[pppolitics]

Worst case scenario for this war is that the larger Arab superpowers get involved. If it’s mostly Israel vs. Hamas Israel would win easily.

Let Israel and Iran destroy each other.

It's a win-win: two authoritarian states destroy one another.

Hell no, if Iran declares war on Israel then we should provide Israel with air support. Let's see how Iran would like to deal with the greatest military superpower the world has ever seen and especially the greatest air power the world has ever seen.

We must not let Israel fall under any circumstance. The history over the past many centuries show that when there is no Jewish country existing , it leads to horrible oppression and we cannot stand by and let that ever happen again. The fact is Jews need a refuge from potential oppression and that is why a Jewish nation must exist

We should provide as much help to Israel as they were willing to give to Ukraine.

This is a lol worthy comparison . Yes Israel should support Ukraine more but we should not let a situation arise where Jews have no potential refuge from oppression like it existed for centuries.

If forced to choose , I would say its more important from a Humanitarian perspective for Israel to be saved because there are many nations that could be a potential refuge for Ukrainians as there are many Christian Countries on the planet while there is only one Jewish nation.

What does the US get in return?

We are not standing up for democratic values since Israel is not a democracy.

Ensuring a Jewish Nation exists. Something are more important than a democracy and given the oppression Jews have faced over the centuries, them having a nation is more important than Israel being a democracy.

Why is ensuring the survival of an authoritarian "Jewish Nation" in the US interest?

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

Trump is blaming Biden:

Joe Biden’s ineptitude, weakness, and incompetence has led to this horrible attack on Israel, and it will only get worse. Just four years ago we had the signing of the historic Abraham Accords, and today we have an attack on Israel. What a difference a President makes!

The least surprising thing of the day. The man never saw a crisis he didn't want to make about himself.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Quite a few people suddenly comfortable with advocating for the elimination of another seven million Jews. Wish I could be surprised, but I'm not.

Either way, we all know how that ends and Israel certainly doesn't want it, but there it is.

A lot of people in here also seem to think Israeli lives are inherently more valuable than non Israeli lives.

We have a separate thread for this now. That goes for both of you.

My comment was in direct response to people upthread stating they hope Iran gets involved so both countries destroy each other - aka, the elimination of everyone in Israel. This isn't some abstract argument.

Okay yes, that's fair. Sorry.

[Aurelius2]

Worst case scenario for this war is that the larger Arab superpowers get involved. If it’s mostly Israel vs. Hamas Israel would win easily.

Let Israel and Iran destroy each other.

It's a win-win: two authoritarian states destroy one another.

Hell no, if Iran declares war on Israel then we should provide Israel with air support. Let's see how Iran would like to deal with the greatest military superpower the world has ever seen and especially the greatest air power the world has ever seen.

We must not let Israel fall under any circumstance. The history over the past many centuries show that when there is no Jewish country existing , it leads to horrible oppression and we cannot stand by and let that ever happen again. The fact is Jews need a refuge from potential oppression and that is why a Jewish nation must exist

We should provide as much help to Israel as they were willing to give to Ukraine.

This is a lol worthy comparison . Yes Israel should support Ukraine more but we should not let a situation arise where Jews have no potential refuge from oppression like it existed for centuries.

If forced to choose , I would say its more important from a Humanitarian perspective for Israel to be saved because there are many nations that could be a potential refuge for Ukrainians as there are many Christian Countries on the planet while there is only one Jewish nation.

What does the US get in return?

We are not standing up for democratic values since Israel is not a democracy.

Ensuring a Jewish Nation exists. Something are more important than a democracy and given the oppression Jews have faced over the centuries, them having a nation is more important than Israel being a democracy.

Why is ensuring the survival of an authoritarian "Jewish Nation" in the US interest?

Genocide is bad and Jews have a recent (and long) history of suffering this in the diaspora. Anyway, please take this to the other thread.

[Aurelius2]

New update from Netanyahu. Key quote:

He says he spoke with President Biden and other world leaders from France, Britain and beyond, thanks Biden for his “unreserved support,” and says he secured international backing for “freedom of action” for Israel.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-thanks-biden-for-unreserved-support-says-israel-faces-challenging-days-but-will-win/

My (possibly piss-poor) reading of the tea-leaves leads me to think he is hinting at some operation to not just push Hamas out of the areas of Israeli territory it has captured, but break their rule over Gaza once and for all. The status quo seems unsustainable after this, this isn't just another spate of rocket attacks.

[pppolitics]

Worst case scenario for this war is that the larger Arab superpowers get involved. If it’s mostly Israel vs. Hamas Israel would win easily.

Let Israel and Iran destroy each other.

It's a win-win: two authoritarian states destroy one another.

Hell no, if Iran declares war on Israel then we should provide Israel with air support. Let's see how Iran would like to deal with the greatest military superpower the world has ever seen and especially the greatest air power the world has ever seen.

We must not let Israel fall under any circumstance. The history over the past many centuries show that when there is no Jewish country existing , it leads to horrible oppression and we cannot stand by and let that ever happen again. The fact is Jews need a refuge from potential oppression and that is why a Jewish nation must exist

We should provide as much help to Israel as they were willing to give to Ukraine.

This is a lol worthy comparison . Yes Israel should support Ukraine more but we should not let a situation arise where Jews have no potential refuge from oppression like it existed for centuries.

If forced to choose , I would say its more important from a Humanitarian perspective for Israel to be saved because there are many nations that could be a potential refuge for Ukrainians as there are many Christian Countries on the planet while there is only one Jewish nation.

What does the US get in return?

We are not standing up for democratic values since Israel is not a democracy.

Ensuring a Jewish Nation exists. Something are more important than a democracy and given the oppression Jews have faced over the centuries, them having a nation is more important than Israel being a democracy.

Why is "[Jewish people] have a nation" more important than "Israel being a democracy"?

[No War, but the War on Christmas]

It would be useful if this thread did not turn into a classic internet thread about ~The Conflict~ and be rendered as completely unreadable to non-psychopaths as something important and awful has happened and there are people who might wish to follow updates and to discuss things. Plenty of other places online where you can all defecate for attention.

This PLEASE!!! C’mon people, you don’t have to respond to every comment that says “this is horrible” with “actually, this is the consequences of decades of occupation, I’m very smart”. We know. Now can you please, please, let this thread be about the situation at hand? Myself, and I presume other serious posters, will simply stop updating and providing analysis here at this rate because everything is drowned out by pages of the same old arguments.

This genuinely feels like gas-lighting, cause it was the pro-israeli users throwing out insults, homophobic remarks and death threats.

I'll leave it at that and won't post here any more, but some of you have giant, giant planks in your eye. And I reject that discussing the Palestinian POV in this thread is somehow 'off-topic'.

Madness.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

New update from Netanyahu. Key quote:

He says he spoke with President Biden and other world leaders from France, Britain and beyond, thanks Biden for his “unreserved support,” and says he secured international backing for “freedom of action” for Israel.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-thanks-biden-for-unreserved-support-says-israel-faces-challenging-days-but-will-win/

My (possibly piss-poor) reading of the tea-leaves leads me to think he is hinting at some operation to not just push Hamas out of the areas of Israeli territory it has captured, but break their rule over Gaza once and for all.

I gotta say, I know a lot of pro-Israel people were hesitant about him because of his close ties to the last Dem President, but Biden has exceeded my expectations on this issue at every turn.

[Red Velvet]

Trump is blaming Biden:

Joe Biden’s ineptitude, weakness, and incompetence has led to this horrible attack on Israel, and it will only get worse. Just four years ago we had the signing of the historic Abraham Accords, and today we have an attack on Israel. What a difference a President makes!

Expected considering how polarized and partisan literally every issue has gotten in the USA.

Since the Democrats have become more of Israel skeptics (while not dropping their support to be clear) after the rise of the Extreme Right-wing fanatics in the country - with Netanyahu even being a Trump enthusiast - this is a matter where Trump can try to play the democrats into not being “Pro-Israel” enough even if for all realistic matters it’s a bipartisan position both parties have.

[Aurelius2]

snip

Why is "[Jewish people] have a nation" more important than "Israel being a democracy"?

PLEASE. TAKE. THIS. TO. THE. OTHER. THREAD.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

New update from Netanyahu. Key quote:

He says he spoke with President Biden and other world leaders from France, Britain and beyond, thanks Biden for his “unreserved support,” and says he secured international backing for “freedom of action” for Israel.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-thanks-biden-for-unreserved-support-says-israel-faces-challenging-days-but-will-win/

My (possibly piss-poor) reading of the tea-leaves leads me to think he is hinting at some operation to not just push Hamas out of the areas of Israeli territory it has captured, but break their rule over Gaza once and for all.

I think his warning to civilians to leave Gaza indicates a maximalist approach, yeah. As does thanking a Democratic President for anything.

[The Mikado]

By the way, literally the only person in this thread suggesting direct US military assistance is OSR. Please do not conflate everyone else with him. Most other people know full well Israel fights alone as it always has and is damned good at it (for better and worse) and neither needs nor wants foreign direct military intervention in its fights.

[pppolitics]

Worst case scenario for this war is that the larger Arab superpowers get involved. If it’s mostly Israel vs. Hamas Israel would win easily.

Let Israel and Iran destroy each other.

It's a win-win: two authoritarian states destroy one another.

Hell no, if Iran declares war on Israel then we should provide Israel with air support. Let's see how Iran would like to deal with the greatest military superpower the world has ever seen and especially the greatest air power the world has ever seen.

We must not let Israel fall under any circumstance. The history over the past many centuries show that when there is no Jewish country existing , it leads to horrible oppression and we cannot stand by and let that ever happen again. The fact is Jews need a refuge from potential oppression and that is why a Jewish nation must exist

We should provide as much help to Israel as they were willing to give to Ukraine.

This is a lol worthy comparison . Yes Israel should support Ukraine more but we should not let a situation arise where Jews have no potential refuge from oppression like it existed for centuries.

If forced to choose , I would say its more important from a Humanitarian perspective for Israel to be saved because there are many nations that could be a potential refuge for Ukrainians as there are many Christian Countries on the planet while there is only one Jewish nation.

What does the US get in return?

We are not standing up for democratic values since Israel is not a democracy.

Ensuring a Jewish Nation exists. Something are more important than a democracy and given the oppression Jews have faced over the centuries, them having a nation is more important than Israel being a democracy.

Why is ensuring the survival of an authoritarian "Jewish Nation" in the US interest?

Genocide is bad and Jews have a recent (and long) history of suffering this in the diaspora. Anyway, please take this to the other thread.

...and why should the US be concerned about any of this?

The US wants to support democracies around the world, but Israel is not a democracy.

[🦀🎂🦀🎂]

So, the reason why hamas managed to enter so easily is because the military are busy babysitting the security of west bank settlers? If I was Israeli I would be furious at the selfishness.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

So, the reason why hamas managed to enter so easily is because the military are busy babysitting the security of west bank settlers? If I was Israeli I would be furious at the selfishness.

Once the initial rally-round-the-flag moment wears off, Netanyahu and his team will have a LOT to answer for. There might be a parallel here to how Cuomo went from being the hero of Covid to one of its biggest goats.

[OSR stands with Israel]

By the way, literally the only person in this thread suggesting direct US military assistance is OSR. Please do not conflate everyone else with him. Most other people know full well Israel fights alone as it always has and is damned good at it (for better and worse) and neither needs nor wants foreign direct military intervention in its fights.

To prevent Iran from getting involved and I oppose sending ground troops as well. I would just support using our air power to cripple the offensive capabilities of Iran if they intervene.

[morgieb]

Jfc this thread is grim

Anyway, regardless of how you feel about the IDF, the truth is that this attack was 100% on Hamas, and it’s tough to argue against Israel thinking this is an act of war. My thoughts are with our Israeli/Jewish brothers in this time, I hope you and your families are all safe.

[Aurelius2]

So, the reason why hamas managed to enter so easily is because the military are busy babysitting the security of west bank settlers? If I was Israeli I would be furious at the selfishness.

I have not been following IDF deployments closely prior to today, but I do believe I read that something like 24 divisions were in the West Bank prior to this. I would still be tempted to put this more on the security services and less on the IDF though, since Israel is a very small country and forces can be redeployed quickly due to this. Regardless, if there were not some level of forces stationed along the Gaza Border and ready to go at any time, yes that is inexcusable. *Especially* since it is on the 50th anniversary of the Yom Kippur war and doubly especially since today is Simchat Torah, an important Jewish holiday, and the terrorists have an established penchant for attacking on Jewish holidays.

[WalterWhite]

New update from Netanyahu. Key quote:

He says he spoke with President Biden and other world leaders from France, Britain and beyond, thanks Biden for his “unreserved support,” and says he secured international backing for “freedom of action” for Israel.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/netanyahu-thanks-biden-for-unreserved-support-says-israel-faces-challenging-days-but-will-win/

My (possibly piss-poor) reading of the tea-leaves leads me to think he is hinting at some operation to not just push Hamas out of the areas of Israeli territory it has captured, but break their rule over Gaza once and for all. The status quo seems unsustainable after this, this isn't just another spate of rocket attacks.

This is just another indication that Hamas is done after this. It appears very likely that Hamas will be disbanded (30K Hamas soldiers vs. 160K Israeli soldiers), which could potentially bring us one step closer to peace in Israel and Palestine. (It is much easier to negotiate a peace deal if there is not a terrorist organization in the mix.)

[Pericles]

Israel is clearly the more sympathetic side in this conflict. Supporting the rights of the Palestinian people shouldn't mean supporting genocidal terrorists.

Well, Israel is already on track to exceed the civilian death toll from the initial Hamas attack. So I don’t see how they have moral high ground on that front.

It's not illegal for civilians to die from your military attacks. It is illegal to launch attacks without considering civilians, or worse, deliberately kill civilians as Hamas does. Taking civilian hostages is also a war crime. Israel has been more restrained-usually they attack military targets but in one of the most densely populated areas of the world and when Hamas conduct operations in civilian areas, there will be civilian casualties. If Israel were to just massacre the Gaza population then they'd be at Hamas's level but that isn't how they have behaved.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Worst case scenario for this war is that the larger Arab superpowers get involved. If it’s mostly Israel vs. Hamas Israel would win easily.

Let Israel and Iran destroy each other.

It's a win-win: two authoritarian states destroy one another.

Hell no, if Iran declares war on Israel then we should provide Israel with air support. Let's see how Iran would like to deal with the greatest military superpower the world has ever seen and especially the greatest air power the world has ever seen.

We must not let Israel fall under any circumstance. The history over the past many centuries show that when there is no Jewish country existing , it leads to horrible oppression and we cannot stand by and let that ever happen again. The fact is Jews need a refuge from potential oppression and that is why a Jewish nation must exist

And if the USA is stupid enough to do that. It gives China the opportunity to invade Taiwan while your planes are fighting to protect Bibi

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Israel is clearly the more sympathetic side in this conflict. Supporting the rights of the Palestinian people shouldn't mean supporting genocidal terrorists.

Well, Israel is already on track to exceed the civilian death toll from the initial Hamas attack. So I don’t see how they have moral high ground on that front.

It's not illegal for civilians to die from your military attacks. It is illegal to launch attacks without considering civilians, or worse, deliberately kill civilians as Hamas does. Taking civilian hostages is also a war crime. Israel has been more restrained-usually they attack military targets but in one of the most densely populated areas of the world and when Hamas conduct operations in civilian areas, there will be civilian casualties. If Israel were to just massacre the Gaza population then they'd be at Hamas's level but that isn't how they have behaved.

Bibi is implying that might change.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Worst case scenario for this war is that the larger Arab superpowers get involved. If it’s mostly Israel vs. Hamas Israel would win easily.

Let Israel and Iran destroy each other.

It's a win-win: two authoritarian states destroy one another.

Hell no, if Iran declares war on Israel then we should provide Israel with air support. Let's see how Iran would like to deal with the greatest military superpower the world has ever seen and especially the greatest air power the world has ever seen.

We must not let Israel fall under any circumstance. The history over the past many centuries show that when there is no Jewish country existing , it leads to horrible oppression and we cannot stand by and let that ever happen again. The fact is Jews need a refuge from potential oppression and that is why a Jewish nation must exist

And if the USA is stupid enough to do that. It gives China the opportunity to invade Taiwan while your planes are fighting to protect Bibi

You really no nothing about our military capabilities lol. Our military is designed to fight major wars in multiple front's at the same time and the level of intervention I am talking about would not require us too:


- Move any of our aircraft carriers out of the pacific. Keep in mind our Navy alone has stronger air power than any other nation's military

- We would not send a single ground troop here

[Red Velvet]

Worst case scenario for this war is that the larger Arab superpowers get involved. If it’s mostly Israel vs. Hamas Israel would win easily.

Let Israel and Iran destroy each other.

It's a win-win: two authoritarian states destroy one another.

Hell no, if Iran declares war on Israel then we should provide Israel with air support. Let's see how Iran would like to deal with the greatest military superpower the world has ever seen and especially the greatest air power the world has ever seen.

We must not let Israel fall under any circumstance. The history over the past many centuries show that when there is no Jewish country existing , it leads to horrible oppression and we cannot stand by and let that ever happen again. The fact is Jews need a refuge from potential oppression and that is why a Jewish nation must exist

And if the USA is stupid enough to do that. It gives China the opportunity to invade Taiwan while your planes are fighting to protect Bibi

And don’t forget that besides fighting Iran for Israel and China for Taiwan, they also still need to keep sending money and war equipment for Ukraine to fight Russia too.