Israel-Gaza war

[Comrade Funk]

You forgot the part where the IDF are well aware of roughly how many people they (will) kill. It's not a secret, just something most people on this forum (not you of course!) would like to ignore because the collection of information on and deliberate targeting of civilian buildings to maximise suffering conflicts somewhat with the laughably pathetic attempts to pretend that the Israeli military is the most humane in history or whatever. Again, they would seem to align well enough to be used internally. A rather different situation, as I'm sure you'll recognise.

No, I've made it clear that either no deaths are justified or all deaths are justified; the idea that the response to an attack killing 1500 should be killing 1500 random individuals on the other side, rather than destroying their government no matter the cost, is bizarre and divorced from reality. That civilian buildings which are used for military purposes are targeted should go without saying (although you seem to think it should not go at all!); your later quoted article treats this as scandalous rather than obvious.

I did say “not you of course”—did you actually read my post? I only ask because of that and the fact that, er, it’s civilian buildings which are not used for military purposes that are being destroyed. Indeed, as you have read, along with those civilian buildings in which one Hamas member lives (though those are being attacked when the Hamas member in question is away despite the IDF having detailed information on who’s in the building at the time of the attack—could someone, not Vosem, explain that one to me?).

In any case I’m glad to see that you don’t dispute the factuality of the article. I’ll respond to your poorly-informed stuff on the Arab Legion which is at odds with your own source in the morning.

It's not worth arguing. You'll only get ten paragraph screeds of gaslighting

[CumbrianLefty]

Channel 14 is a pro-Netanyahu outlier poll.

Okay, fair enough.

Genuine question, did Horus not know this when they posted it? Its apparently a bit of a running joke in Israeli polling/political circles for exactly that reason, though I was also unaware of this until now.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Come on CIA we need you guys to do an all time redemption arc and coup Bibi

[Pres Mike]

All three Israeli news channels posted polls showing Benny Gantz's coalition easily winning a majority

[Vosem]

You forgot the part where the IDF are well aware of roughly how many people they (will) kill. It's not a secret, just something most people on this forum (not you of course!) would like to ignore because the collection of information on and deliberate targeting of civilian buildings to maximise suffering conflicts somewhat with the laughably pathetic attempts to pretend that the Israeli military is the most humane in history or whatever. Again, they would seem to align well enough to be used internally. A rather different situation, as I'm sure you'll recognise.

No, I've made it clear that either no deaths are justified or all deaths are justified; the idea that the response to an attack killing 1500 should be killing 1500 random individuals on the other side, rather than destroying their government no matter the cost, is bizarre and divorced from reality. That civilian buildings which are used for military purposes are targeted should go without saying (although you seem to think it should not go at all!); your later quoted article treats this as scandalous rather than obvious.

I did say “not you of course”—did you actually read my post? I only ask because of that and the fact that, er, it’s civilian buildings which are not used for military purposes that are being destroyed. Indeed, as you have read, along with those civilian buildings in which one Hamas member lives (though those are being attacked when the Hamas member in question is away despite the IDF having detailed information on who’s in the building at the time of the attack—could someone, not Vosem, explain that one to me?).

In any case I’m glad to see that you don’t dispute the factuality of the article. I’ll respond to your poorly-informed stuff on the Arab Legion which is at odds with your own source in the morning.

It's not worth arguing. You'll only get ten paragraph screeds of gaslighting

Pointing out that your ideals contradict each other, or imply absurdities, is not gaslighting.

[Vosem]

You forgot the part where the IDF are well aware of roughly how many people they (will) kill. It's not a secret, just something most people on this forum (not you of course!) would like to ignore because the collection of information on and deliberate targeting of civilian buildings to maximise suffering conflicts somewhat with the laughably pathetic attempts to pretend that the Israeli military is the most humane in history or whatever. Again, they would seem to align well enough to be used internally. A rather different situation, as I'm sure you'll recognise.

No, I've made it clear that either no deaths are justified or all deaths are justified; the idea that the response to an attack killing 1500 should be killing 1500 random individuals on the other side, rather than destroying their government no matter the cost, is bizarre and divorced from reality. That civilian buildings which are used for military purposes are targeted should go without saying (although you seem to think it should not go at all!); your later quoted article treats this as scandalous rather than obvious.

I did say “not you of course”—did you actually read my post? I only ask because of that and the fact that, er, it’s civilian buildings which are not used for military purposes that are being destroyed. Indeed, as you have read, along with those civilian buildings in which one Hamas member lives (though those are being attacked when the Hamas member in question is away despite the IDF having detailed information on who’s in the building at the time of the attack—could someone, not Vosem, explain that one to me?).

In any case I’m glad to see that you don’t dispute the factuality of the article. I’ll respond to your poorly-informed stuff on the Arab Legion which is at odds with your own source in the morning.

Sure, although it was formatted in a way such that it was not immediately clear to me who you were referring to with "not you of course".

There is a giant bureaucracy in Israel which identifies targets for bombing and specifies the reasons for them (and which, yes, creates an estimate of the number of civilian casualties such a bombing would create), such that every bombing does have some military purpose that the military could justify if you (or, more relevantly, an Israeli court) were to quibble with it; similar systems were used by the US during drone campaigns in Yemen and bombing campaigns in Iraq in the 2010s. I don't think you can really attack this without attacking the entirety of the modern First World way of war (which, to be fair to you, given the opinions of the American public and military establishment is to some non-negligible degree just downstream of Israeli practice, so pointing this out is kind of circular, but critics of the Israeli practice tend to shy away from noticing this) or just attacking war (and the experience of really all of human history shows that pacifism is fascism; this is a cliche but no less important for all that).

[Horus]

Channel 14 is a pro-Netanyahu outlier poll.

Okay, fair enough.

Genuine question, did Horus not know this when they posted it? Its apparently a bit of a running joke in Israeli polling/political circles for exactly that reason, though I was also unaware of this until now.

I really didn't. I am glad it is an outlier. Gantz is still pretty foul but I don't find him to be menacingly evil in the same way as Bibi.

[Vosem]

Channel 14 is a pro-Netanyahu outlier poll.

Okay, fair enough.

Genuine question, did Horus not know this when they posted it? Its apparently a bit of a running joke in Israeli polling/political circles for exactly that reason, though I was also unaware of this until now.

Pro-Palestinian advocates very rarely have remotely good understandings of internal Israeli politics and a lot of amusement can be milked out of this, though I don't think anything on Atlas has topped pppolitics not realizing that simplifying domestic interfaith marriages is very much a hawkish, right-wing cause in Israel. Americans of recent Middle Eastern ancestry tend to not appreciate the extent to which it is Jews of recent Middle Eastern descent who ~~usually tend to~~ support the Israeli right and Jews of recent European descent who ~~usually tend to~~ support the Israeli left, and often find this fact really counterintuitive or even disturbing; I'd be interested in hearing Pres Mike's thoughts on this.

Also left-Americans of any background tend not to appreciate the extent to which, while strident support for the settlement project is associated with the Netanyahu coalition, strident hawkishness in international relations and outright pro-war stances are associated with particular sections of its opponents/the Gantz coalition. You can get an Israel which builds fewer settlements but is likelier to fight its neighbors, or an Israel which builds more settlements but is less likely to fight its neighbors, but these stances usually don't go together, at least in politicians. There is an insane lack of understanding I see everywhere, including in formal US government communications, which doesn't appreciate that Bibi falling now, and being replaced by either Gallant or Gantz, would make the opening of a second front in Lebanon much more likely, since Bibi is the main opponent of doing so within the current Cabinet.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Odds and ends:

- The Head of Hamas, Ismail Haniyeh, is claiming Hamas is willing to take a more flexible stance on prisoner exchanges.  What that means in practice is obviously a classic “devil is in the details” situation, but it is a good sign as one major issue in the Qatar talks has been Hamas insisting on the release of all terrorists currently being held in Israeli prisons which is an obvious non-starter.  This is noteworthy because it suggests that previous reports that Mashel* and Haniyeh were digging in for the long haul re: the current conflict (b/c 1) they were personally feeling relatively safe in Qatar and 2) they’d come to see it as a prestige issue) may have been inaccurate.  It just underscores how much about Hamas’ internal politics/dynamics remains unclear.

- I cannot overstate what a big deal Schumer’s speech was or commend him enough for it.  Schumer said what most Jewish-Americans, myself included, are feeling.  In a way it was a Nixon goes to China moment because due to Schumer’s (imo to a fault) strong pro-Israel credentials and extremely close personal relationship with Netanyahu, no one can try to discredit what he said by playing the boy who cried anti-Semitism.  If AIPAC goes after him, for example, they will be laughed out of the room by most of the Jewish-American community.  Schumer is the highest ranking Jewish elected official in American history and has unmatched pro-Israel credentials, so when he forcefully condemns Netanyahu and right-wing Israelis (such as the settler terrorists in West Bank) as two of the four biggest obstacles to peace, folks will take notice.  Whether you’re Horus or Ray or somewhere in between, this is something we should all be celebrating.  

It’s also getting a lot of play in Israel based on what I have read.  It caught Netanyahu completely by surprise and will almost certainly do more than anything Biden could to get it through Likud’s thick skull that America’s patience is not limitless and is running thin.

- Apparently, Israel has all but confirmed that Marwan Issa was indeed killed in that air strike and Israeli intelligence has confirmed this in a briefing to the Israeli cabinet.  However, no official public announcement will be made any time soon until Hamas acknowledges Issa’s death.  Hamas is refusing to comment on Issa’s death, although several articles have reported that anonymous sources within Hamas have indicated that the group believes him to be dead and is especially concerned since Issa was acting as a liaison/communication link between Hamas leadership and the brigade commanders, some of whom have now lost all contact with leadership).  I will update the Hamas leader status tracker on page 260 when I finish this post.

- Speaking of Issa, reports are starting to trickle out implying that unlike Al-Arouri - who was killed b/c 1) he got sloppy and did a meeting in a location Hezbollah warned him Israel knew about and 2) multiple people had their cellphones on during the meeting - Issa’s location was discovered through an Israeli intelligence source within Hamas.  This could definitely be Israeli disinformation, but if I were Hamas then that possibility would still scare the hell out of me.

- Not much military news to report today

- Apparently tensions between Hamas and Abbas are starting to flare up again.  I doubt much comes of it though.

*Incidentally, Mashel has historically, along with the late Al-Arouri, been traditionally considered part of the more pragmatist wing - relatively speaking - of the top Hamas leadership in contrast to the even more hardline wing of the top Hamas leadership (ex: Haniyeh, the Sinwar brothers, and the late Ayman Nofal).  

[GeneralMacArthur]

I really appreciate these tangible updates on what's actually happening in the war.  When 99% of the news is about politics surrounding the war, it's pretty much impossible to filter down to what's actually happening on the ground.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I really appreciate these tangible updates on what's actually happening in the war.  When 99% of the news is about politics surrounding the war, it's pretty much impossible to filter down to what's actually happening on the ground.

Thanks, like I said, I’m trying really hard to be the change I want to see in what’s being focused on in this thread.  You’re right that it’s not easy to track down tangible updates about what’s happening in the war.  Weekdays are a bit easier because of the greater volume of stories, but it took me over an hour of research yesterday to sift through all the pro-Israel and anti-Israel political commentary to find out what was actually going on.  Anyway:

- So far this weekend has been (relatively speaking) quiet-ish militarily, although the Israeli push to the sea in Gaza appears to be sputtering out as I suspected and Israel has taken a control of a bit more of the Al-Qarara.

- Katie Porter “Champion of Democracy” award winner Netanyahu predictably responded to Schumer’s speech by rejecting calls for new elections and indicating he will not hold them until the latest possible date (2026 iirc), although he was a lot more reserved than in his responses to Biden’s criticisms suggesting at least a dim understanding that he’s pissing folks off more than he realized.  

- In Tel Aviv, the Israeli government used fire hoses and mounted police to violently break up a peaceful anti-war protest.  The excuse was essentially “they’re blocking traffic, so we have no choice but to go Bull Connor on them”

- Tensions continue to grow between Hamas and the Palestinian Authority over Abbas’ de facto appointment of one of his buddies as Prime Minister.  Abbas just had the new Prime Minister publicly blast Hamas for causing the current conflict and condemn Hamas for inflicting “this Nakba [referring to both the civilian deaths and mass displacement]…a worse catastrophe than 1948” upon the Palestinian people in Gaza.  Abbas’ puppet PM also condemned Hamas for refusing to hold elections which is kinda funny given that - along with somehow making the PA’s corruption problems even worse - one of the two biggest criticisms of Abbas has been that he has refused to allow elections in the West Bank.

Anyway, this is a major shift for Abbas.  Abbas and the PA had largely been siding - at least in their rhetoric - with Hamas despite not doing anything in the conflict itself (although one could arguably read the lowkey involvement of the Al-Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade as a tacit endorsement of what Hamas did) with Abbas initially branding 10/7 as Palestinian freedom fighters engaging in heroic self-defense and taking weeks to even acknowledge that so much as a single civilian was killed on 10/7.  While Hamas and the PA had reconciled a little bit (“a little bit” is admittedly doing a lot of heavy lifting) in recent years, it seems like Abbas has made a calculated decision to pick a fight with Hamas while they’re busy fighting the IDF in Gaza.  One wonders if we’ll see a return to the days of the PA being rumored to be tipping off Israel about Hamas and PIJ safe houses/operations in the West Bank.  

It’s also notable that this comes like two and half months after Al-Arouri died as IIRC he was both the guy behind the lowkey warming of relations between Hamas and the PA, as well as basically the sole leader of Hamas in the West Bank.  Much like he was with Hamas in Turkey, Al-Arouri basically was Hamas in West Bank.  I could easily see the PA waiting a little after his death and seeing no one able to fill the void, deciding now was the time to pick a fight with Hamas on favorable turf.

- An aid ship was able to successfully deliver 200 tons of food to Gaza City.

- Anonymous Hamas sources have privately confirmed that Marwan Issa was killed.  The Commander of Hamas’ Central Camp Brigade, Razi Abu Tomeh, was also killed in the same air strike.

- Zaher Al-Jabarin, Al-Arouri’s right hand man and basically the leader of Hamas’ fundraising/money laundering operations, is apparently Al-Arouri’s replacement.  While hardly a nobody, he doesn’t loom nearly as large.  He’s basically a glorified money guy and I doubt he’ll be anywhere near as effective as Al-Arouri was.  Al-Arouri had exceptional diplomatic skills and a gift for organizing/running the day to day operations of strong Hamas branches from afar.  However, because of how much he liked to keep his branches firmly loyal to him rather than neutral in Hamas internal politics, the only one that could really stand on its own without him was Lebanon and that’s being systematically taken apart piece by piece.  Al-Jabarin is not the guy you send to rebuild/build a new branch of your group, he’s the guy you ask to find the money to fund someone else’s efforts to do so.

- Ceasefire negotiations have resumed in Qatar.  Unclear if either side has taken any meaningful steps toward softening demands.


- Hamas has started murdering leaders of local clans in Gaza in an effort to keep the growing anger towards them among Gazans (note: anger at Hamas does not mean they’re not also pissed at Israel, it sounds like most Gazans at this point hate both sides in this conflict which…I mean…can you blame them?).  Apparently, Hamas made it known that they’d kill Palestinians who went to try to get aid directly rather than the unwanted scraps of aid Hamas had gotten its hands on and this backfired badly.  Not only were folks so desperate for food that they basically called the bluff, but it reminded some folks there why they hate Hamas and Israel rather than just Israel.  Hamas got anxious its grip was slipping in parts of Gaza it controlled and killed some clan leaders to try to deprive this anger of a potential figurehead/rallying point.  Time will tell whether they nipped things in the bud or just caused an even bigger backlash.

- Netanyahu reportedly approved a plan to attack Rafah, but it’s unclear if this is a “yes, we’re doing this in the near future” plan or an “if/when we actually do this, here’s how it would go” plan.

[PSOL]

Fatah has been collaborating with the enemy since day 1, where is this nonsense that they haven’t started yet?

[lfromnj]

https://twitter.com/QudsNen/status/1769065852878323764

Palestinian propaganda but something interesting where he admits he had to buy it. Considering its an airdrop who else could be selling it but Hamas and/or other Gazans.

[Pres Mike]

Channel 14 is a pro-Netanyahu outlier poll.

Okay, fair enough.

Genuine question, did Horus not know this when they posted it? Its apparently a bit of a running joke in Israeli polling/political circles for exactly that reason, though I was also unaware of this until now.

Pro-Palestinian advocates very rarely have remotely good understandings of internal Israeli politics and a lot of amusement can be milked out of this, though I don't think anything on Atlas has topped pppolitics not realizing that simplifying domestic interfaith marriages is very much a hawkish, right-wing cause in Israel. Americans of recent Middle Eastern ancestry tend to not appreciate the extent to which it is Jews of recent Middle Eastern descent who ~~usually tend to~~ support the Israeli right and Jews of recent European descent who ~~usually tend to~~ support the Israeli left, and often find this fact really counterintuitive or even disturbing; I'd be interested in hearing Pres Mike's thoughts on this.

Also left-Americans of any background tend not to appreciate the extent to which, while strident support for the settlement project is associated with the Netanyahu coalition, strident hawkishness in international relations and outright pro-war stances are associated with particular sections of its opponents/the Gantz coalition. You can get an Israel which builds fewer settlements but is likelier to fight its neighbors, or an Israel which builds more settlements but is less likely to fight its neighbors, but these stances usually don't go together, at least in politicians. There is an insane lack of understanding I see everywhere, including in formal US government communications, which doesn't appreciate that Bibi falling now, and being replaced by either Gallant or Gantz, would make the opening of a second front in Lebanon much more likely, since Bibi is the main opponent of doing so within the current Cabinet.

I'm not sure what your asking but I'm happy to answer. Are you asking how I feel about the political leanings of Ashkenazi Jews (European) and Mizrahi Jews (Middle Eastern)?

[GeneralMacArthur]

Palestinian propaganda but soemthing interesting where he admits he had to buy it. Considering its an airdrop who else could be selling it but Hamas and/or other Gazans.

Ah yes, I've seen this video going around.  Really undermines the "Israel is starving Gaza to death" if this dude is just flippantly dismissing the food he's been given because it doesn't taste good enough.  I mean it's not like this is moldy bread or expired vegetables or something.  It's an MRE, it's designed explicitly for this purpose, normal soldiers eat this stuff.

https://epidemicproof.com/products/2023-mre-meal-11-vegetable-crumbles-with-pasta-in-taco-sauce

The package he purchased from Hamas was 1,250 calories.  It also came with various flavorings that he presumably didn't use.  It looks like the thing he flung aside saying "we don't have this here" was the main dish, vegetable crumbles in pasta with taco sauce.  I wonder whether it was intentional that he flippantly excluded half of the calories in the package without describing them to the viewer, leaving the impression we just gave him some peanut butter and cashews and crackers.  I'm going to go with yes since that's how all these guys operate.

Anyway, while Hamas is huddling in their tunnels munching on Joe Biden's gift MREs that they robbed from the Palestinian civilians at gun point, I take some solace in knowing that they probably think they taste like crap.  Apple Cinnamon Protein Bar?  What the heck is this?

[AtorBoltox]

Fatah has been collaborating with the enemy since day 1, where is this nonsense that they haven’t started yet?

This is strange language for someone who 'doesn't support Hamas'

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Fatah has been collaborating with the enemy since day 1, where is this nonsense that they haven’t started yet?

This is strange language from someone who 'doesn't support Hamas'

Tbf, you don't have to be a Hamas supporter to recognize that the Israeli state is indeed the primary enemy of Palestinians.
Who was holding people as hostages in arbitrary detention in West Bank jails, was placing all kinds of security controls unnecessary for genuine safety for Jews but were still awful for Palestinians (affecting things like habitation, medical care, etc), and whose female soldiers were forcibly putting Palestinian women through highly degrading behavior in the weeks lead-up to October 7th? The Israelis, primarily. Hamas is a malevolent entity but it's a product of its environment, which was mostly shaped by Israel. And Bibi has only made it worse. Decades of Israeli policy have left Palestinians unable to realistically achieve good change within the current status quo and have left the traumatized people a mere "golden age" (in relative terms) to look back on and fantastical dreams that waste their time and attention, rather than positive solutions. Most of the problems of the Palestinians can in fact be majority blamed on Israeli maximalist goals which render them a people reduced to two hundred bantustans and nothing positive to strive for more generally. Unless you think a life in serfdom is something worth celebrating.

When you consider the West Bank has seen an increasing flood of settlers and Fatah has indeed worked with Israel in order to prevent Hamas from having an opening, it is true that Fatah has collaborated with the foremost enemy of Palestinians. I don't think it paints them as very very evil but it's still is accurate as a descriptor. Palestinians are of course incredibly divided. What's new?

[DaleCooper]

Palestinian propaganda but soemthing interesting where he admits he had to buy it. Considering its an airdrop who else could be selling it but Hamas and/or other Gazans.

Ah yes, I've seen this video going around.  Really undermines the "Israel is starving Gaza to death" if this dude is just flippantly dismissing the food he's been given because it doesn't taste good enough.  I mean it's not like this is moldy bread or expired vegetables or something.  It's an MRE, it's designed explicitly for this purpose, normal soldiers eat this stuff.

https://epidemicproof.com/products/2023-mre-meal-11-vegetable-crumbles-with-pasta-in-taco-sauce

The package he purchased from Hamas was 1,250 calories.  It also came with various flavorings that he presumably didn't use.  It looks like the thing he flung aside saying "we don't have this here" was the main dish, vegetable crumbles in pasta with taco sauce.  I wonder whether it was intentional that he flippantly excluded half of the calories in the package without describing them to the viewer, leaving the impression we just gave him some peanut butter and cashews and crackers.  I'm going to go with yes since that's how all these guys operate.

Anyway, while Hamas is huddling in their tunnels munching on Joe Biden's gift MREs that they robbed from the Palestinian civilians at gun point, I take some solace in knowing that they probably think they taste like crap.  Apple Cinnamon Protein Bar?  What the heck is this?

A lot of these "activists" are just Hamas collaborators. Not even useful idiots, direct supporters and collaborators. If this guy is making fake videos pretending that America is sending salt packets to Gaza instead of real food, then he almost certainly is too. This is one of the primary reasons why the mainstream doesn't take the Palestinian cause seriously because it's so captured by Hamas and its sympathizers.

[lfromnj]

I am actually surprised we dropped peanut butter. Peanut butter itself isn't very common outside the US. Poor areas of the world do have less allergies but this seems like a disaster in the making with allergies. FWIW we did drop MRE's and not HDR's which are even more bland and usually don't have meat because its not really meant for Americans.

[omar04]

Palestinian propaganda but soemthing interesting where he admits he had to buy it. Considering its an airdrop who else could be selling it but Hamas and/or other Gazans.

Ah yes, I've seen this video going around.  Really undermines the "Israel is starving Gaza to death" if this dude is just flippantly dismissing the food he's been given because it doesn't taste good enough.  I mean it's not like this is moldy bread or expired vegetables or something.  It's an MRE, it's designed explicitly for this purpose, normal soldiers eat this stuff.

https://epidemicproof.com/products/2023-mre-meal-11-vegetable-crumbles-with-pasta-in-taco-sauce

How does a single video refute the overall level of food insecurity? The fact that there are some Gazans able to afford food does not say anything about the overall food situation.

MREs are also not designed for humanitarian aid as they can cause refeeding syndrome and other issues.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanitarian_daily_ration

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

While things remain relatively quiet militarily, it has been an eventful past few days:

- Netanyahu has clearly been spooked by Schumer’s speech.  While he continues to publicly insist a Rafah offensive is the only path forward, The Israeli government has apparently recently been having secret discussions with Biden administration, officials to develop and alternative plan instead of the planned offensive against Rafah.

- Israel conducted a major raid/attack on one of the largest hospitals in the Gaza Strip in an operation that perfectly illustrates how tricky a situation this war can be.  On the one hand, Israel knew the hospital was being used as a safe refuge by many sick and elderly individuals.  On the other hand, it was clearly being used by Hamas militants who opened fire from the hospital windows and during the operation, Israel killed 40 Hamas terrorists including a pretty important Hamas leader (albeit decidedly mid-level within the top Hamas leadership): Faiq Mabhouh, the Head of Internal Security for all of Hamas, was hiding in the hospital and almost certainly the target of the operation.  Then again, was he worth assaulting a major hospital complex where you know about 3,000 civilians were genuinely sheltering.  Perfectly captures how this can all get so messy and morally complicated.

- There have been some claims Mabhouh was in contact with UN representatives, but these don’t seem super credible to me and I can’t find them confirmed by any major news outlets, so I’d recommend treating this claim as baseless speculation/disinformation/pro-Israel propaganda if you encounter it.

- An Israeli air strike on Rafah killed Mohammed Abu Hasna, the head of Hamas’ operations unit in Rafah

- Apparently afraid of seeming politically impotent, Netanyahu has started publicly responding in a more typically hyperbolic and disingenuous fashion to Schumer’s speech although it’s pretty clear it rattled him.  

- National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan has indicated that the U.S. has been able to officially confirm Marwan Issa’s death.

- North Gaza is apparently expected to be suffering from mass famine even with humanitarian aid until at least the end of May.  This is a terrible situation, there’s no two ways about it.

- An Israeli airstrike killed ~20 people, Hamas says these were civilians and Israel hasn’t commented yet on the purpose of the air strike or if it hit its intended target.  Make of that what you will…

[CumbrianLefty]

I am actually surprised we dropped peanut butter. Peanut butter itself isn't very common outside the US. Poor areas of the world do have less allergies but this seems like a disaster in the making with allergies. FWIW we did drop MRE's and not HDR's which are even more bland and usually don't have meat because its not really meant for Americans.

I think it is pretty common in Europe now (though this is admittedly a diversion from your main point)

[Vosem]

Channel 14 is a pro-Netanyahu outlier poll.

Okay, fair enough.

Genuine question, did Horus not know this when they posted it? Its apparently a bit of a running joke in Israeli polling/political circles for exactly that reason, though I was also unaware of this until now.

Pro-Palestinian advocates very rarely have remotely good understandings of internal Israeli politics and a lot of amusement can be milked out of this, though I don't think anything on Atlas has topped pppolitics not realizing that simplifying domestic interfaith marriages is very much a hawkish, right-wing cause in Israel. Americans of recent Middle Eastern ancestry tend to not appreciate the extent to which it is Jews of recent Middle Eastern descent who ~~usually tend to~~ support the Israeli right and Jews of recent European descent who ~~usually tend to~~ support the Israeli left, and often find this fact really counterintuitive or even disturbing; I'd be interested in hearing Pres Mike's thoughts on this.

Also left-Americans of any background tend not to appreciate the extent to which, while strident support for the settlement project is associated with the Netanyahu coalition, strident hawkishness in international relations and outright pro-war stances are associated with particular sections of its opponents/the Gantz coalition. You can get an Israel which builds fewer settlements but is likelier to fight its neighbors, or an Israel which builds more settlements but is less likely to fight its neighbors, but these stances usually don't go together, at least in politicians. There is an insane lack of understanding I see everywhere, including in formal US government communications, which doesn't appreciate that Bibi falling now, and being replaced by either Gallant or Gantz, would make the opening of a second front in Lebanon much more likely, since Bibi is the main opponent of doing so within the current Cabinet.

I'm not sure what your asking but I'm happy to answer. Are you asking how I feel about the political leanings of Ashkenazi Jews (European) and Mizrahi Jews (Middle Eastern)?

It was more just asking if you had any comments (about Middle Eastern interpretations of domestic Israeli politics) rather than a question about anything specific -- eg, Middle Easterners sometimes believe that perceived Israeli hostility towards Palestinian culture comes from not understanding it, so there is an assumption that Israelis who speak Arabic, or Arab Jews, are less stridently Zionist, and people find it surprising that in reality Arab Jews (especially especially Iraqi Jews, who are strongly overrepresented in movements like Otzma/Kahanism) tend to be much more stridently Zionist.

Fatah has been collaborating with the enemy since day 1, where is this nonsense that they haven’t started yet?

This is strange language from someone who 'doesn't support Hamas'

Tbf, you don't have to be a Hamas supporter to recognize that the Israeli state is indeed the primary enemy of Palestinians.

But I think you kind of do have to adopt some form of the general Palestinian narrative, where a foreign occupation is a greater danger than domestic political Islamism, or where foreign occupation is undeserved even as a consequence for strong eliminationist policies (I think you see this attitude in the DRC-Rwanda dispute as well), or where an absolute right to self-determination exists (or should exist if it doesn't). I think this is a way of seeing the world that pretty predictably leads to much more human suffering, and the best way to see the conflict is to reject the whole edifice.

[ProudModerate2]

Video -- 'That sounds like ethnic cleansing': CNN questions lead figure in Israel's settler movement.

CNN's Clarissa Ward reports from the West Bank where the Jewish settler movement is seeking a new goal in the wake of the October 7th attack by Hamas.
Click below to watch video ...

https://www.cnn.com/videos/world/2024/03/20/israel-gaza-west-bank-settler-movement-clarissa-ward-pkg-intl-ldn-vpx.cnn

This is insane.
I did not know there was such a big-ish movement in Israel, actually advocating for Israel to completely re-settle Gaza.
Like, where are the millions of the current population there, suppose to go?
The international community would never allow this to happen.

[Pres Mike]

Channel 14 is a pro-Netanyahu outlier poll.

Okay, fair enough.

Genuine question, did Horus not know this when they posted it? Its apparently a bit of a running joke in Israeli polling/political circles for exactly that reason, though I was also unaware of this until now.

Pro-Palestinian advocates very rarely have remotely good understandings of internal Israeli politics and a lot of amusement can be milked out of this, though I don't think anything on Atlas has topped pppolitics not realizing that simplifying domestic interfaith marriages is very much a hawkish, right-wing cause in Israel. Americans of recent Middle Eastern ancestry tend to not appreciate the extent to which it is Jews of recent Middle Eastern descent who ~~usually tend to~~ support the Israeli right and Jews of recent European descent who ~~usually tend to~~ support the Israeli left, and often find this fact really counterintuitive or even disturbing; I'd be interested in hearing Pres Mike's thoughts on this.

Also left-Americans of any background tend not to appreciate the extent to which, while strident support for the settlement project is associated with the Netanyahu coalition, strident hawkishness in international relations and outright pro-war stances are associated with particular sections of its opponents/the Gantz coalition. You can get an Israel which builds fewer settlements but is likelier to fight its neighbors, or an Israel which builds more settlements but is less likely to fight its neighbors, but these stances usually don't go together, at least in politicians. There is an insane lack of understanding I see everywhere, including in formal US government communications, which doesn't appreciate that Bibi falling now, and being replaced by either Gallant or Gantz, would make the opening of a second front in Lebanon much more likely, since Bibi is the main opponent of doing so within the current Cabinet.

I'm not sure what your asking but I'm happy to answer. Are you asking how I feel about the political leanings of Ashkenazi Jews (European) and Mizrahi Jews (Middle Eastern)?

It was more just asking if you had any comments (about Middle Eastern interpretations of domestic Israeli politics) rather than a question about anything specific -- eg, Middle Easterners sometimes believe that perceived Israeli hostility towards Palestinian culture comes from not understanding it, so there is an assumption that Israelis who speak Arabic, or Arab Jews, are less stridently Zionist, and people find it surprising that in reality Arab Jews (especially especially Iraqi Jews, who are strongly overrepresented in movements like Otzma/Kahanism) tend to be much more stridently Zionist.

Fatah has been collaborating with the enemy since day 1, where is this nonsense that they haven’t started yet?

This is strange language from someone who 'doesn't support Hamas'

Tbf, you don't have to be a Hamas supporter to recognize that the Israeli state is indeed the primary enemy of Palestinians.

But I think you kind of do have to adopt some form of the general Palestinian narrative, where a foreign occupation is a greater danger than domestic political Islamism, or where foreign occupation is undeserved even as a consequence for strong eliminationist policies (I think you see this attitude in the DRC-Rwanda dispute as well), or where an absolute right to self-determination exists (or should exist if it doesn't). I think this is a way of seeing the world that pretty predictably leads to much more human suffering, and the best way to see the conflict is to reject the whole edifice.

I’m well aware that Ashkenazi Jews tend to be more liberal and support peace talks. I know 80% of Ashkenazi Jews support liberal or centrist parties. I also know that Ashkenazi Jews are only 35% of Israel’s Jewish population. They were 80% in 1948. I am extremely skeptical that an Israeli cabinet will ever support a Palestinian state with Mizrahi Jews being far more conservative and much higher birth rates. I don’t think Israel will be a liberal democracy long term.

I don’t think most most Palestinians know the difference between Ashkenazi and Mizrahi Jews or know one group is more willing to have peace than the other.

It was a huge mistake for the Arab nations to expel their Jewish populations. All it did was harden Israel long term.

I should note I am American born and raised. I have lived a very comfortable and privileged life compared to most Palestinians by being a middle class American. And I have a natural interest in history and politics. I majored in that in college and now teach. Me knowing the difference in the political leanings of Ashkenazi Jews and Mizrahi makes me an exception to the norm