Israel-Gaza war

[Wiswylfen]

I get what you're driving at here, but it is very tacky to compare the Jewish relationship with the Southern Levant in 1948 (or at any other time for that matter) to the Japanese relationsihp with the Korean Peninsula today (or at any time after the Battle of Sekigahara for that matter).

I mean I'm not really driving at anything because it's a cheap and undetailed hypothetical to get something actually equivalent rather than something that isn't equivalent in a post full of lies about how Britain "sold weapons to Jordan used to kill Israelis".

Britain did sell weapons to Jordan that were used against Israel. Like the Hawker Hunter jet:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Jordanian_Air_Force

As you will note, the conflicts being referred to were all ongoing at the time of weapons being provided and that was the basis for discussion. If you're going to miss the point—a pretty obvious one given that, you know, Britain itself sold arms to Argentina before the war!—I at least expect more than this.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

I’m gonna try to be the change I want to see and shift the focus of my posts in this thread to (hopefully) informative updates about what’s going on in the conflict itself.

Israel just killed Hadi Mustafa, the leader of Hamas’ military wing/armed forces in Lebanon.  While I wouldn’t call Mustafa a top guy, he’s a significant mid-tier commander.  It has been interesting to see the contrast between how Israel targets Hezbollah (taking great care to avoid the major leadership and generally focusing on mid-tier guys who are overseeing recent attacks on Israel) and how they’re targeting Hamas in Lebanon.  They’ve really been going for the jugular with Hamas there and have already done major long-term damage to its ability to operate effectively in Lebanon aside from as some rump group subject to the whims of Hezbollah. 

The strong, efficient machine Al-Arouri meticulously constructed in Lebanon is being taken apart piece by piece and with Al-Arouri dead (and more and more of his top underlinings in the Lebanese branch of Hamas), it’s far from clear Hamas will be able to rebuild it in the foreseeable future even if a permanent unconditional ceasefire happened today.  I think in Lebanon, Israel is well on its way to succeeding in its goal to decimate Hamas’ leadership.

A few other odds and ends:

- Biden has apparently indicated he’ll consider conditioning further US military aid to Israel if it invaded Rafah.  I suspect this is the real reason Netanyahu pulled back some of the Israeli troops that had been gearing up for a Rafah offensive with the economy being a convenient excuse.

- Still unconfirmed if Israel took out Marwan Issa, but it is looking more and more like they got him.  Hamas is reportedly extremely concerned that Issa was among those killed in last weekend’s air strike as it was apparently a direct hit on the exact spot Issa was believed by the rest of Hamas’ leadership to be hiding at the time.

- While it looks like reports of Yahya Sinwar escaping to Egypt were false, it has been confirmed that he and several other major Hamas leaders were able to get their families into Egypt via Rafah.

- In a reversal of how things were last year, apparently Hamiyah and Mashal (the Qatar-based political leadership of Hamas) want to keep going which is causing tensions with the remaining military commanders in Gaza who are exhausted, concerned about supply shortages, and increasingly desperate for even a three week ceasefire.  Conflicting reports about whether Yahya Sinwar has shifted to wanting a ceasefire out of desperation and exhaustion or has entered a delusional “Hitler in the Bunker” mindset where he’s convinced himself Israel will be forced to back down and let him live as the leader of Gaza.

[Silent Hunter]

Israel have also used a new route to bring aid into the north of Gaza.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-68552311

[Horus]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799?t=2slDm0s_SzoJ5cX6P...

I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

[TheReckoning]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799?t=2slDm0s_SzoJ5cX6P...
I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

Unless Likud is ousted, it’s time to put conditions on aid. Which should’ve been done decades ago, tbh.

[Stand With Israel. Crush Hamas]

If I was the President of the United States, I would simply not double down on antagonizing the leadership of a nuclear ally in the middle of an existential war, when that was proven to only improve said leader's political fortunes.

[Comrade Funk]

If I was the President of the United States, I would simply not double down on antagonizing the leadership of a nuclear ally in the middle of an existential war, when that was proven to only improve said leader's political fortunes.

Israel does it constantly to the United States (especially to Biden's former boss). We're the superpower, not them. Maybe if they understood that's the dynamic, things would actually change. But instead they act like petulant teenagers when ever criticized for their awful policies. They're a burden who spit in our face

[Open Source Intelligence]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799?t=2slDm0s_SzoJ5cX6P...
I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

Unless Likud is ousted, it’s time to put conditions on aid. Which should’ve been done decades ago, tbh.

What stage of democracy is this in world history where people in foreign powers want to dictate to free electorates in their allies who they can vote for to not harm the gravy train?

If I was the President of the United States, I would simply not double down on antagonizing the leadership of a nuclear ally in the middle of an existential war, when that was proven to only improve said leader's political fortunes.

Israel does it constantly to the United States (especially to Biden's former boss). We're the superpower, not them. Maybe if they understood that's the dynamic, things would actually change. But instead they act like petulant teenagers when ever criticized for their awful policies. They're a burden who spit in our face

That's because they know they can. You think the Israeli Cabinet, the Israeli Foreign Ministry, and Israeli Intelligence are not sitting at home strategizing and realizing that Biden has an election that's a big deal in 8 months and the coalition of voters he needs if he wants to win against Trump means Biden must take a pro-Israeli stance or at the very least not an anti-Israeli stance? "Find your opponent's weakness, utilize it to full effect." Biden's weakness is the Democrats have made it so that him and his party absolutely must win in November. That means it's open season to push on him events and laws beyond his control that he might not be for but if they go the opposite direction means his voting coalition could shrink.

[OSR stands with Israel]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799?t=2slDm0s_SzoJ5cX6P...

I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

Still way better than any other nation in that region and it’s not even remotely close .

[Comrade Funk]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799?t=2slDm0s_SzoJ5cX6P...

I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

Still way better than any other nation in that region and it’s not even remotely close .

Even if that was true (it isn't), what a low effing bar to brag about

[OSR stands with Israel]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799?t=2slDm0s_SzoJ5cX6P...

I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

Still way better than any other nation in that region and it’s not even remotely close .

Even if that was true (it isn't), what a low effing bar to brag about

Yes it absolutely is and they are neighbored by probably the worst nation in the Middle East . Even the PLO is horrific in every way possible. The fact is the Palestinian cause is despicable in every possible way

[omar04]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

[tweet]https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799/tweet]

I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Israeli_legislative_election#Polls

This poll and Direct Polls in general is a significant outlier.

[Wiswylfen]

I assume the reason that people defending Israel's actions are still allowed to post in this thread is that while "indiscriminate killing of civilians ... will not be tolerated", there is no such rule for supporting the deliberate and intentional killing of civilians.

"Compared to previous Israeli assaults on Gaza, the current war — which Israel has named “Operation Iron Swords,” and which began in the wake of the Hamas-led assault on southern Israel on October 7 — has seen the army significantly expand its bombing of targets that are not distinctly military in nature. These include private residences as well as public buildings, infrastructure, and high-rise blocks, which sources say the army defines as “power targets” (“matarot otzem”).

The bombing of power targets, according to intelligence sources who had first-hand experience with its application in Gaza in the past, is mainly intended to harm Palestinian civil society: to “create a shock” that, among other things, will reverberate powerfully and “lead civilians to put pressure on Hamas,” as one source put it.

Several of the sources, who spoke to +972 and Local Call on the condition of anonymity, confirmed that the Israeli army has files on the vast majority of potential targets in Gaza — including homes — which stipulate the number of civilians who are likely to be killed in an attack on a particular target. This number is calculated and known in advance to the army’s intelligence units, who also know shortly before carrying out an attack roughly how many civilians are certain to be killed."

This is what you're denying. This is what you're defending. Why won't you just be honest about it rather than pretending that actually there is no evidence that the IDF is anything other than the world's most moral army, or saying that anyone who calls a genocide a genocide is racist? Why do you need to hide behind that?

[Pres Mike]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799?t=2slDm0s_SzoJ5cX6P...
I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

The Israeli electorate is easily the most conservative and right wing in the developed world despite once regularly voting for leftist parties from the 1940s-1960s.

I ran some rough numbers in my head for a hyperthically election and I saw no scenario where centrist and leftist parties won a majority of seats, even with the Arab parties. And a coalition with the Arab parties will never happen. The only way Benny Gantz becomes prime minister is an alliance with disgruntled conservatives like Gideon Saar.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799?t=2slDm0s_SzoJ5cX6P...

I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

What's with this claiming that Gantz is leftist?

[Horus]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799?t=2slDm0s_SzoJ5cX6P...

I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

What's with this claiming that Gantz is leftist?

Caroline Glick is a far right nutcase. She probably considers Naftali Bennett a leftist too.

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

There seem to be several focus points for Israeli offensives at the moment:

1) They are clearly doing an offensive to take Al-Qarara north of Khan Yunis.  They’ve made decent progress here, although Hamas still controls most of the city.  Depending on how hard Hamas and Israel each fight here, this city could conceivably fall over the weekend. 

2) Israel is slowly but surely creeping toward Rafah from their base in the southeastern corner of the Gaza Strip (Israel immediately took a key airport there in October).  I don’t think this is a Rafah offensive, but they’re clearly trying to position themselves to be able to do a Rafah offensive if Biden blinks before Netanyahu. 

3) Israel seems to be making a westward push from Khan Yunis to the coast (it’s clear a big part of Israel’s military strategy is geared toward forcing city/neighborhood encirclements ahead of an offensive and isolating various sectors of Gaza).  However, this seems to be sputtering out.  Hamas fought like hell for the Khan Younis refugee camp and while it ultimately fell, this delayed operations there by at least a month.  Israel seems to have made a second push for the coast and while they gained ground, the Israeli coastal push seems to have been halted absent a thus far unseen willingness to commit significantly more troops to this offensive.

4) Israel has made several attempts to take Abasan Al-Kabira, a city southeast of Khan Younis.  However, Hamas has fought hard here and Israel has been reluctant to commit too many soldiers to taking the city thus far.  Ultimately, Israel finally took most the city last week and appears to be making a decidedly half hearted effort to take the portions Hamas still controls.  I doubt this goes anywhere unless Hamas decides to pull its remaining fighters there to southern Gaza.

Odds and Ends:

- The IDF has agreed to allow humanitarian aide into Gaza from “a variety of entry points.”  This is almost certainly due to the significant pressure Biden had been quietly applying on Netanyahu on this front.  That said, talk is just that, so we’ll see if Israel actually does this.

- Israel did an air strike on a UNRWA facility in Rafah and took out Mohammed Abu Hasna, basically the guy in Hamas whose job it was to make sure any humanitarian aid in Gaza got seized and distributed to Hamas fighters.  I wonder what he was doing at a UNRWA compound…  Truly, it’s a mystery for the ages   Anyway, even more evidence UNRWA has been essentially co-opted by Hamas. 

- The Head of Israel’s Military Intelligence Department has been fired and seems to be the designated scapegoat for 10/7 catching Israel flatfooted. 

- Neither Israel nor Hamas have been able to confirm Marwan Issa’s status, but he should probably be presumed dead at this point absent the emergence of clear evidence to the contrary given that by all accounts (even Hamas’) it was a direct hit on the exact spot where Issa was hiding at the time.

[Angel of Death]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I think it's a BFD on several levels when someone like Chuck Schumer is now openly saying Bibi's government has got to go.

[Vosem]

I get what you're driving at here, but it is very tacky to compare the Jewish relationship with the Southern Levant in 1948 (or at any other time for that matter) to the Japanese relationsihp with the Korean Peninsula today (or at any time after the Battle of Sekigahara for that matter).

I mean I'm not really driving at anything because it's a cheap and undetailed hypothetical to get something actually equivalent rather than something that isn't equivalent in a post full of lies about how Britain "sold weapons to Jordan used to kill Israelis".

Britain did sell weapons to Jordan that were used against Israel. Like the Hawker Hunter jet:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Jordanian_Air_Force

As you will note, the conflicts being referred to were all ongoing at the time of weapons being provided and that was the basis for discussion. If you're going to miss the point—a pretty obvious one given that, you know, Britain itself sold arms to Argentina before the war!—I at least expect more than this.

British troops fought in the Jordanian army during the 1948 war. Note that this did not stop Israel from allying with Britain in 1955, or just seven years later, because this is not the sort of thing over which grudges are normally kept.

You forgot the part where the IDF are well aware of roughly how many people they (will) kill. It's not a secret, just something most people on this forum (not you of course!) would like to ignore because the collection of information on and deliberate targeting of civilian buildings to maximise suffering conflicts somewhat with the laughably pathetic attempts to pretend that the Israeli military is the most humane in history or whatever. Again, they would seem to align well enough to be used internally. A rather different situation, as I'm sure you'll recognise.

No, I've made it clear that either no deaths are justified or all deaths are justified; the idea that the response to an attack killing 1500 should be killing 1500 random individuals on the other side, rather than destroying their government no matter the cost, is bizarre and divorced from reality. That civilian buildings which are used for military purposes are targeted should go without saying (although you seem to think it should not go at all!); your later quoted article treats this as scandalous rather than obvious.

If I was the President of the United States, I would simply not double down on antagonizing the leadership of a nuclear ally in the middle of an existential war, when that was proven to only improve said leader's political fortunes.

Israel does it constantly to the United States (especially to Biden's former boss). We're the superpower, not them. Maybe if they understood that's the dynamic, things would actually change. But instead they act like petulant teenagers when ever criticized for their awful policies. They're a burden who spit in our face

Israel and the United States are democracies, and it will continue to be the case that the Israeli government has more influence on the American one than vice versa so long as the Israeli government's positions remain closer to those held by American voters than those adopted by the American government. As we discussed earlier in this thread, recently it has been Israeli military and security tactics being adopted by the Americans, and not the other way around, with this conflict being written into urban warfare curriculums as exemplary.

(They're certainly not a burden if they enact the policies American voters want? What does that even mean? Do you think American policy should be set by some nobility?)

[GoTfan]

Anyone who thinks that Netanyahu is a democrat has not been paying attention.

[certified hummus supporter 🇵🇸🤝🇺🇸🤝🇺🇦]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799?t=2slDm0s_SzoJ5cX6P...
I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

Still way better than any other nation in that region and it’s not even remotely close .

Even if that was true (it isn't), what a low effing bar to brag about

Yes it absolutely is and they are neighbored by probably the worst nation in the Middle East . Even the PLO is horrific in every way possible. The fact is the Palestinian cause is despicable in every possible way

Waiting for the part where you go on about them not condemning the Grand Mufti of Quds...

[Wiswylfen]

You forgot the part where the IDF are well aware of roughly how many people they (will) kill. It's not a secret, just something most people on this forum (not you of course!) would like to ignore because the collection of information on and deliberate targeting of civilian buildings to maximise suffering conflicts somewhat with the laughably pathetic attempts to pretend that the Israeli military is the most humane in history or whatever. Again, they would seem to align well enough to be used internally. A rather different situation, as I'm sure you'll recognise.

No, I've made it clear that either no deaths are justified or all deaths are justified; the idea that the response to an attack killing 1500 should be killing 1500 random individuals on the other side, rather than destroying their government no matter the cost, is bizarre and divorced from reality. That civilian buildings which are used for military purposes are targeted should go without saying (although you seem to think it should not go at all!); your later quoted article treats this as scandalous rather than obvious.

I did say “not you of course”—did you actually read my post? I only ask because of that and the fact that, er, it’s civilian buildings which are not used for military purposes that are being destroyed. Indeed, as you have read, along with those civilian buildings in which one Hamas member lives (though those are being attacked when the Hamas member in question is away despite the IDF having detailed information on who’s in the building at the time of the attack—could someone, not Vosem, explain that one to me?).

In any case I’m glad to see that you don’t dispute the factuality of the article. I’ll respond to your poorly-informed stuff on the Arab Legion which is at odds with your own source in the morning.

[Progressive Pessimist]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799?t=2slDm0s_SzoJ5cX6P...

I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

I f***ing hate this world we live in where spite takes priority over common sense.

[Tekken_Guy]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799?t=2slDm0s_SzoJ5cX6P...

I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

I f***ing hate this world we live in where spite takes priority over common sense.

Channel 14 is a pro-Netanyahu outlier poll.

[Progressive Pessimist]

"Netanyahu has no chance, most Israelis are done with him."

https://twitter.com/CarolineGlick/status/1767991748033167799?t=2slDm0s_SzoJ5cX6P...

I told you guys he'd pull ahead again if he wasn't ousted immediately after 10/7. This isn't a fixable country. Also you really have to live in some sort of bizarro upside down world to refer to the Israeli opposition as leftist but this is Caroline Glick after all.

I f***ing hate this world we live in where spite takes priority over common sense.

Channel 14 is a pro-Netanyahu outlier poll.

Okay, fair enough.