How do we fix the migration crisis, and the immigration system as a whole ?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Here's an immigration proposal I drafted previously:

The writing is a little faux legalistic, but I think the content is good.

This is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. What is the matter with you?

Elaborate. What do you find disturbing?

I'm still waiting. I don't think we have enough broad-scale discussions about immigration because we're almost always so focused on the minutiae of the border crisis right now. I like the idea of having one.

I wouldn’t use that language but I will ask what do you mean by an “assimilation test” . Like that map just looks like a Christian vs non Christian map so would one of the criteria be related to whether or not someone is a Christian or not .

Sure. There are three assimilation tests referenced, one for Latin American countries, one for developed East Asian countries, and one for Middle Eastern countries. Each of these tests would test for different things, but none would involve religious testing of the sort you reference (and separately, all Middle Eastern Christians would be available for immigration under Category B here). The MidEast test would essentially try to screen out Islamist and anti-American sentiment, and screen for skills (speaking English, trades, etc) that would make someone particularly beneficial upon entering the US. The LatAm one would do something similar but with a greater emphasis on culture and none at all on Islamism. The East Asian one would be similar to the LatAm one but adjusted for cultural differences between the two regions.

Imo a test would useful to screen out people who have anti American sentiment or are religious extremists but I don’t think it’s actually useful in finding out whether someone will assimilate or not. I would say the best way to tell if they will is :

1. Do they have a stable job

2. Do they have young kids or plan to have kids because many immigrants assimilate through their kids

3. Can they speak fluent English

4. Are they living any ethnic enclaves

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Here's an immigration proposal I drafted previously:

The writing is a little faux legalistic, but I think the content is good.

This is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. What is the matter with you?

Elaborate. What do you find disturbing?

I'm still waiting. I don't think we have enough broad-scale discussions about immigration because we're almost always so focused on the minutiae of the border crisis right now. I like the idea of having one.

I wouldn’t use that language but I will ask what do you mean by an “assimilation test” . Like that map just looks like a Christian vs non Christian map so would one of the criteria be related to whether or not someone is a Christian or not .

Sure. There are three assimilation tests referenced, one for Latin American countries, one for developed East Asian countries, and one for Middle Eastern countries. Each of these tests would test for different things, but none would involve religious testing of the sort you reference (and separately, all Middle Eastern Christians would be available for immigration under Category B here). The MidEast test would essentially try to screen out Islamist and anti-American sentiment, and screen for skills (speaking English, trades, etc) that would make someone particularly beneficial upon entering the US. The LatAm one would do something similar but with a greater emphasis on culture and none at all on Islamism. The East Asian one would be similar to the LatAm one but adjusted for cultural differences between the two regions.

Imo a test would useful to screen out people who have anti American sentiment or are religious extremists but I don’t think it’s actually useful in finding out whether someone will assimilate or not. I would say the best way to tell if they will is :

1. Do they have a stable job

2. Do they have young kids or plan to have kids because many immigrants assimilate through their kids

3. Can they speak fluent English

4. Are they living any ethnic enclaves

I mean all of those are strongly associated with assimilation so yeah, it would basically be testing for that + certain more local things (often related to the anti-American sentiment or extremism you mentioned before.)

[OSR stands with Israel]

Here's an immigration proposal I drafted previously:

The writing is a little faux legalistic, but I think the content is good.

This is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. What is the matter with you?

Elaborate. What do you find disturbing?

I'm still waiting. I don't think we have enough broad-scale discussions about immigration because we're almost always so focused on the minutiae of the border crisis right now. I like the idea of having one.

I wouldn’t use that language but I will ask what do you mean by an “assimilation test” . Like that map just looks like a Christian vs non Christian map so would one of the criteria be related to whether or not someone is a Christian or not .

Sure. There are three assimilation tests referenced, one for Latin American countries, one for developed East Asian countries, and one for Middle Eastern countries. Each of these tests would test for different things, but none would involve religious testing of the sort you reference (and separately, all Middle Eastern Christians would be available for immigration under Category B here). The MidEast test would essentially try to screen out Islamist and anti-American sentiment, and screen for skills (speaking English, trades, etc) that would make someone particularly beneficial upon entering the US. The LatAm one would do something similar but with a greater emphasis on culture and none at all on Islamism. The East Asian one would be similar to the LatAm one but adjusted for cultural differences between the two regions.

Imo a test would useful to screen out people who have anti American sentiment or are religious extremists but I don’t think it’s actually useful in finding out whether someone will assimilate or not. I would say the best way to tell if they will is :

1. Do they have a stable job

2. Do they have young kids or plan to have kids because many immigrants assimilate through their kids

3. Can they speak fluent English

4. Are they living any ethnic enclaves

I mean all of those are strongly associated with assimilation so yeah, it would basically be testing for that + certain more local things (often related to the anti-American sentiment or extremism you mentioned before.)

Imo the biggest problem we have in this case comes from the broken way we do merit based immigration. There are many many immigrants here in H1B visas who have no idea if they will be allowed to stay or go , and because of that they are unsure if they should assimilate or not due to worry they may have to go back .

A better way to deal with this is create a 3 step process for merit based immigration

Step 1 : H1B stage

- Everyone who wants to stay here permanently must go through this stage first

- The visa only is valid for a period of 6 years (with only one 3 year extension potentially being granted and will get to it later )

Step 2 : Permanent Residency

- After 5 years , people who have H1B visas can apply for permanent residency . We can actually then test for assimilation better at this stage as well and also reduce the insane wait times this system currently has .

- Anyone who doesn’t apply for permanent residency will have to leave the country within a year as their visa won’t be extended. Those who are rejected may be given a 3 year extension if close but if they are still rejected at the end of the extension period then they have to leave


Step 3 : Citizenship

- Basically same as now

[Ferguson97]

Here's an immigration proposal I drafted previously:

The writing is a little faux legalistic, but I think the content is good.

This is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. What is the matter with you?

Elaborate. What do you find disturbing?

“Assimilation tests”, language requirements, and making it easier/harder to immigrate depending on the country of origin. And the whole “shared cultural and spiritual heritage” thing is just incredibly weird and has bad vibes.

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Here's an immigration proposal I drafted previously:

The writing is a little faux legalistic, but I think the content is good.

This is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. What is the matter with you?

Elaborate. What do you find disturbing?

“Assimilation tests”, language requirements, and making it easier/harder to immigrate depending on the country of origin. And the whole “shared cultural and spiritual heritage” thing is just incredibly weird and has bad vibes.

Do you think our immigration policy should be built around the best interests of the American people (defined any way you wish)?

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Here's an immigration proposal I drafted previously:

The writing is a little faux legalistic, but I think the content is good.

This is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. What is the matter with you?

Elaborate. What do you find disturbing?

I'm still waiting. I don't think we have enough broad-scale discussions about immigration because we're almost always so focused on the minutiae of the border crisis right now. I like the idea of having one.

I wouldn’t use that language but I will ask what do you mean by an “assimilation test” . Like that map just looks like a Christian vs non Christian map so would one of the criteria be related to whether or not someone is a Christian or not .

Sure. There are three assimilation tests referenced, one for Latin American countries, one for developed East Asian countries, and one for Middle Eastern countries. Each of these tests would test for different things, but none would involve religious testing of the sort you reference (and separately, all Middle Eastern Christians would be available for immigration under Category B here). The MidEast test would essentially try to screen out Islamist and anti-American sentiment, and screen for skills (speaking English, trades, etc) that would make someone particularly beneficial upon entering the US. The LatAm one would do something similar but with a greater emphasis on culture and none at all on Islamism. The East Asian one would be similar to the LatAm one but adjusted for cultural differences between the two regions.

Imo a test would useful to screen out people who have anti American sentiment or are religious extremists but I don’t think it’s actually useful in finding out whether someone will assimilate or not. I would say the best way to tell if they will is :

1. Do they have a stable job

2. Do they have young kids or plan to have kids because many immigrants assimilate through their kids

3. Can they speak fluent English

4. Are they living any ethnic enclaves

I mean all of those are strongly associated with assimilation so yeah, it would basically be testing for that + certain more local things (often related to the anti-American sentiment or extremism you mentioned before.)

Imo the biggest problem we have in this case comes from the broken way we do merit based immigration. There are many many immigrants here in H1B visas who have no idea if they will be allowed to stay or go , and because of that they are unsure if they should assimilate or not due to worry they may have to go back .

A better way to deal with this is create a 3 step process for merit based immigration

Step 1 : H1B stage

- Everyone who wants to stay here permanently must go through this stage first

- The visa only is valid for a period of 6 years (with only one 3 year extension potentially being granted and will get to it later )

Step 2 : Permanent Residency

- After 5 years , people who have H1B visas can apply for permanent residency . We can actually then test for assimilation better at this stage as well and also reduce the insane wait times this system currently has .

- Anyone who doesn’t apply for permanent residency will have to leave the country within a year as their visa won’t be extended. Those who are rejected may be given a 3 year extension if close but if they are still rejected at the end of the extension period then they have to leave


Step 3 : Citizenship

- Basically same as now

I'm okay with something like this for simplifying visas for skilled workers (indeed, the Cat H process I describe is similar to this), but I think it's very important to loosen immigration restrictions in other areas based on those aforementioned factors. Primarily, I think it very important to have a flexible labor market, and believe that by linking the American labor market to the European and (partially) Latin American ones with free immigration, we can remove the direct element of government control over the amount of labor entering the market. Thus, we can create a free market for labor between these countries.

Ideally, we could do the same with the whole world, but I don't think that's possible because of cultural and economic factors.

I also actually really dislike H1B in this regard, because it ties these new immigrants to their jobs and gives companies the ability to control who can immigrate, thus reducing market flexibility and freedom and de facto subsidizing companies that can afford to go through this process.

[Saint Milei]

Migration crisis in Latin America:
Reassess war on drugs
Work with central American and south American countries to fight against the cartel
No more coups


Immigration system:
Merit based and voucher system. You can only move here if you can afford the cost of living where you move and do not request welfare benefits. Some medical care is fine if it's life or death.



Immigration overall:
Deport liberals
Deport illegals
Prioritize immigrants from more traditional countries closer to our values..eastern europe

[OSR stands with Israel]

Here's an immigration proposal I drafted previously:

The writing is a little faux legalistic, but I think the content is good.

This is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. What is the matter with you?

Elaborate. What do you find disturbing?

I'm still waiting. I don't think we have enough broad-scale discussions about immigration because we're almost always so focused on the minutiae of the border crisis right now. I like the idea of having one.

I wouldn’t use that language but I will ask what do you mean by an “assimilation test” . Like that map just looks like a Christian vs non Christian map so would one of the criteria be related to whether or not someone is a Christian or not .

Sure. There are three assimilation tests referenced, one for Latin American countries, one for developed East Asian countries, and one for Middle Eastern countries. Each of these tests would test for different things, but none would involve religious testing of the sort you reference (and separately, all Middle Eastern Christians would be available for immigration under Category B here). The MidEast test would essentially try to screen out Islamist and anti-American sentiment, and screen for skills (speaking English, trades, etc) that would make someone particularly beneficial upon entering the US. The LatAm one would do something similar but with a greater emphasis on culture and none at all on Islamism. The East Asian one would be similar to the LatAm one but adjusted for cultural differences between the two regions.

Imo a test would useful to screen out people who have anti American sentiment or are religious extremists but I don’t think it’s actually useful in finding out whether someone will assimilate or not. I would say the best way to tell if they will is :

1. Do they have a stable job

2. Do they have young kids or plan to have kids because many immigrants assimilate through their kids

3. Can they speak fluent English

4. Are they living any ethnic enclaves

I mean all of those are strongly associated with assimilation so yeah, it would basically be testing for that + certain more local things (often related to the anti-American sentiment or extremism you mentioned before.)

Imo the biggest problem we have in this case comes from the broken way we do merit based immigration. There are many many immigrants here in H1B visas who have no idea if they will be allowed to stay or go , and because of that they are unsure if they should assimilate or not due to worry they may have to go back .

A better way to deal with this is create a 3 step process for merit based immigration

Step 1 : H1B stage

- Everyone who wants to stay here permanently must go through this stage first

- The visa only is valid for a period of 6 years (with only one 3 year extension potentially being granted and will get to it later )

Step 2 : Permanent Residency

- After 5 years , people who have H1B visas can apply for permanent residency . We can actually then test for assimilation better at this stage as well and also reduce the insane wait times this system currently has .

- Anyone who doesn’t apply for permanent residency will have to leave the country within a year as their visa won’t be extended. Those who are rejected may be given a 3 year extension if close but if they are still rejected at the end of the extension period then they have to leave


Step 3 : Citizenship

- Basically same as now

I'm okay with something like this for simplifying visas for skilled workers (indeed, the Cat H process I describe is similar to this), but I think it's very important to loosen immigration restrictions in other areas based on those aforementioned factors. Primarily, I think it very important to have a flexible labor market, and believe that by linking the American labor market to the European and (partially) Latin American ones with free immigration, we can remove the direct element of government control over the amount of labor entering the market. Thus, we can create a free market for labor between these countries.

Ideally, we could do the same with the whole world, but I don't think that's possible because of cultural and economic factors.

I also actually really dislike H1B in this regard, because it ties these new immigrants to their jobs and gives companies the ability to control who can immigrate, thus reducing market flexibility and freedom and de facto subsidizing companies that can afford to go through this process.

Maybe but then we probably would need to implement economic policies to ensure we don’t get Canadian style housing crises which in part is due to too much immigration .

I’d say immigration levels should probably be tied to economic factors such as employment and housing supply

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Here's an immigration proposal I drafted previously:

The writing is a little faux legalistic, but I think the content is good.

This is one of the most disturbing things I have ever read. What is the matter with you?

Elaborate. What do you find disturbing?

I'm still waiting. I don't think we have enough broad-scale discussions about immigration because we're almost always so focused on the minutiae of the border crisis right now. I like the idea of having one.

I wouldn’t use that language but I will ask what do you mean by an “assimilation test” . Like that map just looks like a Christian vs non Christian map so would one of the criteria be related to whether or not someone is a Christian or not .

Sure. There are three assimilation tests referenced, one for Latin American countries, one for developed East Asian countries, and one for Middle Eastern countries. Each of these tests would test for different things, but none would involve religious testing of the sort you reference (and separately, all Middle Eastern Christians would be available for immigration under Category B here). The MidEast test would essentially try to screen out Islamist and anti-American sentiment, and screen for skills (speaking English, trades, etc) that would make someone particularly beneficial upon entering the US. The LatAm one would do something similar but with a greater emphasis on culture and none at all on Islamism. The East Asian one would be similar to the LatAm one but adjusted for cultural differences between the two regions.

Imo a test would useful to screen out people who have anti American sentiment or are religious extremists but I don’t think it’s actually useful in finding out whether someone will assimilate or not. I would say the best way to tell if they will is :

1. Do they have a stable job

2. Do they have young kids or plan to have kids because many immigrants assimilate through their kids

3. Can they speak fluent English

4. Are they living any ethnic enclaves

I mean all of those are strongly associated with assimilation so yeah, it would basically be testing for that + certain more local things (often related to the anti-American sentiment or extremism you mentioned before.)

Imo the biggest problem we have in this case comes from the broken way we do merit based immigration. There are many many immigrants here in H1B visas who have no idea if they will be allowed to stay or go , and because of that they are unsure if they should assimilate or not due to worry they may have to go back .

A better way to deal with this is create a 3 step process for merit based immigration

Step 1 : H1B stage

- Everyone who wants to stay here permanently must go through this stage first

- The visa only is valid for a period of 6 years (with only one 3 year extension potentially being granted and will get to it later )

Step 2 : Permanent Residency

- After 5 years , people who have H1B visas can apply for permanent residency . We can actually then test for assimilation better at this stage as well and also reduce the insane wait times this system currently has .

- Anyone who doesn’t apply for permanent residency will have to leave the country within a year as their visa won’t be extended. Those who are rejected may be given a 3 year extension if close but if they are still rejected at the end of the extension period then they have to leave


Step 3 : Citizenship

- Basically same as now

I'm okay with something like this for simplifying visas for skilled workers (indeed, the Cat H process I describe is similar to this), but I think it's very important to loosen immigration restrictions in other areas based on those aforementioned factors. Primarily, I think it very important to have a flexible labor market, and believe that by linking the American labor market to the European and (partially) Latin American ones with free immigration, we can remove the direct element of government control over the amount of labor entering the market. Thus, we can create a free market for labor between these countries.

Ideally, we could do the same with the whole world, but I don't think that's possible because of cultural and economic factors.

I also actually really dislike H1B in this regard, because it ties these new immigrants to their jobs and gives companies the ability to control who can immigrate, thus reducing market flexibility and freedom and de facto subsidizing companies that can afford to go through this process.

Maybe but then we probably would need to implement economic policies to ensure we don’t get Canadian style housing crises which in part is due to too much immigration .

I’d say immigration levels should probably be tied to economic factors such as employment and housing supply

Sure; I view the need for permitting reform in every country to be so acute as to essentially be a separate issue that we must solve regardless of our immigration policy, although I'd note that (because high housing prices are a cost upon residents) to some extent this effect would be limited by rising prices.

[Ferguson97]

Do you think our immigration policy should be built around the best interests of the American people (defined any way you wish)?

Of course it should be build around our interests. That’s why I support loosening immigration restrictions. Even if you don’t buy the humanitarian argument, economically it’s a no-brainer.

But the criteria you laid out is not in the best interest of the American people.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Do you think our immigration policy should be built around the best interests of the American people (defined any way you wish)?

Of course it should be build around our interests. That’s why I support loosening immigration restrictions. Even if you don’t buy the humanitarian argument, economically it’s a no-brainer.

But the criteria you laid out is not in the best interest of the American people.

His system is effectively similar to the point based system they use in Australia

[Ferguson97]

His system is effectively similar to the point based system they use in Australia

Okay? And?

[OSR stands with Israel]

His system is effectively similar to the point based system they use in Australia

Okay? And?

The entire point of a system like that is to ensure the type of immigrants you get are those who :


1. Aren’t reliant on public programs

2. Assimilate

[Ferguson97]

His system is effectively similar to the point based system they use in Australia

Okay? And?

The entire point of a system like that is to ensure the type of immigrants you get are those who :

1. Aren’t reliant on public programs

2. Assimilate

1. I don't see why an immigrant is less deserving of benefiting from public programs than a citizen is.

2. How do you define assimilation?

[OSR stands with Israel]

His system is effectively similar to the point based system they use in Australia

Okay? And?

The entire point of a system like that is to ensure the type of immigrants you get are those who :

1. Aren’t reliant on public programs

2. Assimilate

1. I don't see why an immigrant is less deserving of benefiting from public programs than a citizen is.

2. How do you define assimilation?

1. If they use public programs then they are a drain on the taxpayer , and the immigrants we get should not be

2. Speaks English , doenst change the cultural norms of the area they are living in too much . So basically not what’s went on in Germany and France

[Ferguson97]

2. Speaks English

There's no reason to require immigrants to speak English.

doenst change the cultural norms of the area they are living in too much.

What does this mean? How do you define cultural norms? What are acceptable areas of disagreement? Can they oppose same-sex marriage? Can they oppose abortion? Can they support the Indian caste system? What position on exclusionary zoning will get their visa request denied?

And why do you view changing cultural norms as a mark against them? Why is this fundamentally bad?

[OSR stands with Israel]

2. Speaks English

There's no reason to require immigrants to speak English.

doenst change the cultural norms of the area they are living in too much.

What does this mean? How do you define cultural norms? What are acceptable areas of disagreement? Can they oppose same-sex marriage? Can they oppose abortion? Can they support the Indian caste system? What position on exclusionary zoning will get their visa request denied?

And why do you view changing cultural norms as a mark against them? Why is this fundamentally bad?

1. Lol

2. Basically, what you see in Germany and France where they start wanting special laws that they had at home to be passed in their new nations too .

Also norms can change over time sure , but drastic sudden change is a bad thing regardless and should not happen.

[Redban]

Will Hurd’s answer:

https://nypost.com/2023/09/12/solving-the-us-migrant-crisis-is-utterly-do-able-heres-how/

1). Treat human smugglers and drug traffickers like terrorists, getting  the CIA, National Security Agency and National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency to help Border Patrol and DHS with the issue

2). Label fentanyl as weapon of mass destruction

3). Invest in a border wall only in urban and highly populated areas. In desolate places like the Chihuahua desert, use drones and radar

4.) reform the asylum seeking process so that only people genuinely escaping persecution are eligible. Don’t let people lie and claim asylum just to reunite with family or enjoy better economic opportunities in USA

[Libertas Vel Mors]

Will Hurd’s answer:

https://nypost.com/2023/09/12/solving-the-us-migrant-crisis-is-utterly-do-able-heres-how/

1). Treat human smugglers and drug traffickers like terrorists, getting  the CIA, National Security Agency and National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency to help Border Patrol and DHS with the issue

2). Label fentanyl as weapon of mass destruction

3). Invest in a border wall only in urban and highly populated areas. In desolate places like the Chihuahua desert, use drones and radar

4.) reform the asylum seeking process so that only people genuinely escaping persecution are eligible. Don’t let people lie and claim asylum just to reunite with family or enjoy better economic opportunities in USA

The Fentanyl stuff is so stupid. A drug is not a weapon of mass destruction.

[Horus]

2. Speaks English

There's no reason to require immigrants to speak English.

doenst change the cultural norms of the area they are living in too much.

What does this mean? How do you define cultural norms? What are acceptable areas of disagreement? Can they oppose same-sex marriage? Can they oppose abortion? Can they support the Indian caste system? What position on exclusionary zoning will get their visa request denied?

And why do you view changing cultural norms as a mark against them? Why is this fundamentally bad?

No, people who oppose ssm should not be allowed to immigrate here. I think that's reasonable. Look at Canada and their huge increase in anti gay hate crimes. And everyone in America should know English, I don't support an official language but moving somewhere and not learning the lingua franca of the country that was kind enough to let you in is a total dick move.

[jojoju1998]

2. Speaks English

There's no reason to require immigrants to speak English.

doenst change the cultural norms of the area they are living in too much.

What does this mean? How do you define cultural norms? What are acceptable areas of disagreement? Can they oppose same-sex marriage? Can they oppose abortion? Can they support the Indian caste system? What position on exclusionary zoning will get their visa request denied?

And why do you view changing cultural norms as a mark against them? Why is this fundamentally bad?

No, people who oppose ssm should not be allowed to immigrate here. I think that's reasonable. Look at Canada and their huge increase in anti gay hate crimes. And everyone in America should know English, I don't support an official language but moving somewhere and not learning the lingua franca of the country that was kind enough to let you in is a total dick move.

New Immigrants are more likely to be fluent, or at least proficient in english. If they haven't been proficient already, then they are more likely to quickly pick up the languages.


In fact, aside from the fact, that they are immigrants, they have far more in common with the Republican ideal, than with American themselves.


Socially and culturally Conservative, more likely to open up a small business, More religious,



https://www.city-journal.org/article/when-demography-isnt-destiny

"Leonard Sax, a family clinician who has studied parenting for years, has noticed that the children of immigrants are beginning to outpace the children of native-born people in various areas, including being less anxious and less prone to criminal behavior. This marks a reversal from the traditional consensus on the children of immigrants—that cultural barriers render them less fortunate than their nonimmigrant peers. Sax refers to this phenomenon as the “immigrant paradox.”

“The more American a kid tends to be, the more likely they are to do poorly,” he told me in an interview. The qualities that Sax identifies as benefiting immigrant children include stronger families, less permissive parenting, and a culture that promotes respect. In other words, immigrants tend to be more culturally conservative."



They see themselves as more American, than native born Americans.

"  Almost 70 percent of native-born Americans said they were “ashamed” of some aspects of America; only 39 percent of immigrants agreed. These differences also show within minority communities. Seventy-three percent of immigrant Muslims, for instance, told Pew they agreed that the “American people are friendly to Muslims,” compared with 30 percent of native-born Muslims who say the same."


I actually don't see why Republicans would oppose or are hostile to immigrants.