🇦🇺 Australian Indigenous Voice to Parliament Referendum (October 14th)

[Ebowed]

Guardian/Essential

Yes 42 (-1)
No 48 (+1)

[Sol]

(I happen to think closing Uluru/Ayers Rock is unjustified, but Australians at least passively seem to accept it being a no-go place).

I truly want to avoid this stupid argument however I can’t help but ask what on earth do you find unjustified about native title landowners enforcing their own rules on private property?

Tim as always will object to any status quo being challenged, in this case the status quo of the subjugation of aborigines.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

(I happen to think closing Uluru/Ayers Rock is unjustified, but Australians at least passively seem to accept it being a no-go place).

I truly want to avoid this stupid argument however I can’t help but ask what on earth do you find unjustified about native title landowners enforcing their own rules on private property?

Tim as always will object to any status quo being challenged, in this case the status quo of the subjugation of aborigines.

If I was as anti-change as you claim, I'd have already endorsed No, after all, opposition to change is what they are banking on. In fact I've pretty explicitly endorsed Yes through my usage of the recommend button.
Being anti-nativist is a common thread through what I've said and argued over the years (partly a consequence of seeing the reaction my man Obama got from the right, I've talked about this before multiple times, I even made a thread about it), and your willful ignorance of that despite me talking about it at length speaks poorly of your comprehension skills.
As it is I favor Yes winning, but reject what could be defined as "anti-settler" ideas, and express my opposition from what is a liberal, pro-immigrant viewpoint. Just because I want Yes to succeed does not mean I have to approve of how Yes has handled the campaign. I do hope they manage to claw back the lost ground...the path to success runs through educating people who fall in a bucket not too dissimilar from me of the fact that the Voice is worth a try.
In the meantime, I'd appreciate if you stopped the bald-faced lies.
(I did not want to have to reply on this, but you forced my hand. congrats)

[Meclazine for Israel]

Guardian/Essential

Yes 42 (-1)
No 48 (+1)

Newspoll

Yes 38
No 53

https://omny.fm/shows/ben-fordham-full-show/disaster-zone-voice-support-crashing-in-latest-new

[Meclazine for Israel]

Not sure about those Communists.

Teela Reid

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CukLQbHuCWt/

[Pericles]

Looks like the Yes vote is a bit softer than the No vote.

The topline data suggests the yes campaign for the voice remains in trouble. More poll respondents report being a hard no (41%) at this stage than a hard yes (30%).

But some voters remain open to persuasion. The poll asks people to identify whether their view on the constitutionally enshrined representative body for Indigenous Australians is fixed or flexible. At the moment 12% characterise their support as a soft yes, 7% say they are a soft no, while 10% are unsure.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2023/sep/04/more-voters-intend-to-vote-no-to-indigenous-voice-despite-yes-campaign-launch-essential-poll-finds

Plus there is the risk that undecideds lean towards No in a referendum like this.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Will the two football codes, AFL and NRL have a political bent towards the YES campaign in their biggest game of the year?

Ben Fordham explains the issue.

NRL and AFL Grand Finals

https://omny.fm/shows/ben-fordham-full-show/voiceless-afl-backs-away-from-promoting-referendum%F0%9F%8E%A7

Sportsfans hate politics at their Grand Final. Collingwood fans are going to hate it if it gets brought up.

[Ebowed]

Redbridge

National
Yes 39%
No 61%

NSW
Yes 39%
No 61%

Victoria
Yes 45%
No 55%

Queensland
Yes 35%
No 65%

Other states/territories
Yes 38%
No 62%

[Meclazine for Israel]

10 quick questions concerning the Voice.

Ch 10 - Narelda Jacobs

https://fb.watch/mYiggA5v0I/

[Meclazine for Israel]

Noel Pearson shares his ideas on the Voice.

Ben Fordham 2GB

https://fb.watch/mYDSYCy7xf/

[Meclazine for Israel]

Former WA Premier Colin Barnett will vote 'YES'.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-10/colin-barnett-reveals-position-on-indigenous-voice-referendum/102822906


Colin Barnett oversaw Australia’s largest native title settlement. (Four Corners: Craig Hansen)

"I think the question is flawed, but I will vote Yes because I don't want to stand in the way of the aspirations of Aboriginal Australians."

[Reactionary Libertarian]

if you live in settler colonialist countries where the indigenous population has been swamped by outsiders and completely marginalized (US, Brazil, Canada, Australia etc.) that leaves them powerless and is hardly fair. Settler colonialist countries are the result of a historical injustice and without some special rights and privileges to the descendants of the original population their communities will remain marginalized and destitute. Everyone should have equal rights sounds nice, but if one group starts out being at a huge and deeply entrenched disadvantage it only cements injustice.

People have mean moving into lands where other people lived and taking over for literally all of human history but somehow white people doing it post 1492 is extremely evil. Every country is ultimately a setter-colonialist country because people had to move in from somewhere, and the dominant ethnic group today was usually not the first one to move in. Indigenousness is a deeply noxious concept which becomes obvious as soon as you look at it closely.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

if you live in settler colonialist countries where the indigenous population has been swamped by outsiders and completely marginalized (US, Brazil, Canada, Australia etc.) that leaves them powerless and is hardly fair. Settler colonialist countries are the result of a historical injustice and without some special rights and privileges to the descendants of the original population their communities will remain marginalized and destitute. Everyone should have equal rights sounds nice, but if one group starts out being at a huge and deeply entrenched disadvantage it only cements injustice.

People have mean moving into lands where other people lived and taking over for literally all of human history but somehow white people doing it post 1492 is extremely evil. Every country is ultimately a setter-colonialist country because people had to move in from somewhere, and the dominant ethnic group today was usually not the first one to move in. Indigenousness is a deeply noxious concept which becomes obvious as soon as you look at it closely.

I don't think it's necessarily deeply noxious (this ought to be approached in a nuanced way that neither places "settlers" and their descendants as a malevolent force, or that treats the Aboriginals as unjustly as they were in the early 20th century), but you are right that it can be deeply noxious in its overall thrust. The encouraging of what amounts to a, lets call it an original sin, as if it was a crime for people's ancestors to come here for a better life...is something that doesn't get enough scrutiny...I myself have zero guilt that my Italian ancestors came to Ellis island and I never will. And yes, it does help to place this in a historical context that runs for a very long time...it shows that what has happened, demographically, is not really special in its working processes. Oceania was just bound to get disrupted, its remoteness would only prevent it for so long...the existence of the new nation that got founded is in itself testament to this.
You don't need to have a sense of "original sin" to believe that the issues plaguing the Aboriginal community ought to be helped in some way, though. You don't need to engage in what amounts to reverse racist thinking to think the Voice would help, or be worth a try. And you don't need to think badly about the outcome of the demographic changes to Australia over the past 300 years, to look at the problems select sections of the population have and accept targeted solutions for them. By most metrics, the aboriginal population is the worst off or almost worst off in Australia...

[oldtimer]

Redbridge

National
Yes 39%
No 61%

NSW
Yes 39%
No 61%

Victoria
Yes 45%
No 55%

Queensland
Yes 35%
No 65%

Other states/territories
Yes 38%
No 62%

Well everyone kinda knew that it was unpopular and very unlikely to pass anyway even before they finally announced a date.

[oldtimer]

if you live in settler colonialist countries where the indigenous population has been swamped by outsiders and completely marginalized (US, Brazil, Canada, Australia etc.) that leaves them powerless and is hardly fair. Settler colonialist countries are the result of a historical injustice and without some special rights and privileges to the descendants of the original population their communities will remain marginalized and destitute. Everyone should have equal rights sounds nice, but if one group starts out being at a huge and deeply entrenched disadvantage it only cements injustice.

People have mean moving into lands where other people lived and taking over for literally all of human history but somehow white people doing it post 1492 is extremely evil. Every country is ultimately a setter-colonialist country because people had to move in from somewhere, and the dominant ethnic group today was usually not the first one to move in. Indigenousness is a deeply noxious concept which becomes obvious as soon as you look at it closely.

Greece is a very good example of that, ceased to exist in 146 BC came back in 1821 AD, but with a different population in most places as seen by the local dialects.

Crete and Cyprus still maintain a version of ancient greek as their local dialect, but elsewhere it's strongly slavic, turkish, and albanian, with a bit of italian in the local lingo depending on the place.

It was a consequense of Greece being invaded by everyone for 2000 years.

However after being invaded and pillaged for 2000 years, Greeks have aquired a defensive attitude that it is wrong to do that.

[Reactionary Libertarian]

You don't need to have a sense of "original sin" to believe that the issues plaguing the Aboriginal community ought to be helped in some way, though. You don't need to engage in what amounts to reverse racist thinking to think the Voice would help, or be worth a try. And you don't need to think badly about the outcome of the demographic changes to Australia over the past 300 years, to look at the problems select sections of the population have and accept targeted solutions for them. By most metrics, the aboriginal population is the worst off or almost worst off in Australia...

While I reject the view that “the legacy of colonialism” or whatever is the only reason for  native populations often having worse outcomes, I would agree that targeted solutions for populations with specific issues is not ipso facto illegitimate. Even though I don’t believe there was anything wrong with white people moving to Australia, certainly there was something wrong with the abhorrent way Aboriginal people were often treated. That being said, is “the Voice” really a concrete way to improve those outcomes? Does anyone really believe this is a magic bullet that will solve anything in material terms? Or is it a symbolic way of writing into the constitution that one group is more equal than everyone else and deserves special representation, because they were “here first”.

In the US, black people often have worse outcomes across a variety of metrics (I don’t think the gap is as bad as with Aboriginals, though). There have been many targeted solutions enacted or proposed over the years, from the Freedmen’s Bureau to the affirmative action to reparations. None of those policies require us to create a new legislative body specifically for black people, and nobody is suggesting it because they weren’t “here first”. So I think the idea that the Voice is a necessary way to enact targeted policies is a red herring. It is a based on, as you said, the idea of “original sin” where European exploration brought evil into the world, and our job today is to rectify these sins through “anti-racism”, “land-back” movements, and other nonsense.

[Reactionary Libertarian]

Honest question: Why doesn't Australia make a treaty with Aborigines the way the US, NZ, and Canada have done with their First Nations? That seems like a more substantial offering without the bad taste of a mostly symbolic race-based legislative body.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Honest question: Why doesn't Australia make a treaty with Aborigines the way the US, NZ, and Canada have done with their First Nations? That seems like a more substantial offering without the bad taste of a mostly symbolic race-based legislative body.

This is why some Aboriginal peoples are voting "No". They want a full effort, not just an advisory committee setup by white left-wing silver tail fruit loops living in a leafy "$3M a house" street relieving themselves of some perceived guilt for their existence in a colonial state.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-11/voice-referendum-australia-answers-complicated-four-corners/102832900


Ben Abbatangelo is voting No.(Four Corners: Dylan Anderson)

Ben Abbatangelo's view on the Voice to Parliament has moved from a reluctant Yes to a hard-edged No.

"It's not born out of black ambition … it's born out of what's acceptable for constitutional conservatives," he says of the referendum to be held on October 14.

"The idea that the people who stole this land, and then who directly benefited from it, are now going to a referendum to think about recognising the people they stole it off is insane."

And rural older Australian's are voting "No" as well.

From the article....

Whilst Tony Seabrook acknowledges the challenges some Indigenous people face, he's a firm No voter.

"We don't need to embed this in our constitution in such a way that it creates a rift. You're going to have a large part of the population now seen as an isolated group of people with privileges other people don't [have]," he says.


Tony is voting No.(Four Corners)

Tony runs a cropping and livestock operation at York, 90 kilometres east of Perth.

"My grandkids are generation number eight. I have a very deep sense of attachment to my piece of country."

[Ebowed]

Resolve

National
Yes 43% (-3)
No 57% (+3)

NSW
Yes 44%
No 56%

VIC
Yes 49%
No 51%

QLD
Yes 39%
No 61%

WA
Yes 39%
No 61%

SA
Yes 41%
No 59%

TAS
Yes 56%
No 44%


The Voice is surging in Tasmania, apparently...

[Shaula🏳️‍⚧️]

First time voting at all, and I will be voting No.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Federal Member for Moore, Ian Goodenough is campaigning for his constituents to vote NO.

https://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Parliamentarian?MPID=74046


Ian Goodenough MP taking time to talk to Joondalup locals (Iangoodenough.com.au)

Ian said today:

"Soon you will be asked to decide whether to change our Constitution and create a permanent Indigenous Voice to Parliament.

This referendum is not just about “Indigenous recognition”. Both major parties support that. Recognition could happen without tying it to a risky Voice.

We all want to help Indigenous Australians in disadvantaged communities. However, this risky Voice is not the answer.

Changing our Constitution is a big decision, yet Labor refuses to provide basic details before the vote. We don’t know how members of the Voice would be chosen or how it would operate. We also don’t know how much it would cost.

This is legally risky, with unknown consequences. And any changes will be permanent."

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Federal Member for Moore, Ian Goodenough is campaigning for his constituents to vote NO.

https://www.aph.gov.au/Senators_and_Members/Parliamentarian?MPID=74046


Ian Goodenough MP taking time to talk to Joondalup locals (Iangoodenough.com.au)

Ian said today:

"Soon you will be asked to decide whether to change our Constitution and create a permanent Indigenous Voice to Parliament.

This referendum is not just about “Indigenous recognition”. Both major parties support that. Recognition could happen without tying it to a risky Voice.

We all want to help Indigenous Australians in disadvantaged communities. However, this risky Voice is not the answer.

Changing our Constitution is a big decision, yet Labor refuses to provide basic details before the vote. We don’t know how members of the Voice would be chosen or how it would operate. We also don’t know how much it would cost.

This is legally risky, with unknown consequences. And any changes will be permanent."

"Goodenough: The Voice not good enough for Australia"

[Meclazine for Israel]

Senator Jacinta Price at the National Press Club today detailing the abuse, threats and vilification she has endured during this process.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-14/senator-jacinta-nampijinpa-price-at-press-club/102855698


Senator Jacinta Price (Facebook)

"[The Voice] is built on lies and an aggressive attempt to fracture our nation's founding document and divide the country built upon it," she said.

"That division has now seen the no campaign branded as being base racism."

She said Indigenous Australians already have a voice as she is one of 11 Indigenous voices — politicians — currently in parliament.

"I will not accept the lie, the rationalisation of many Indigenous voices of the Yes campaign, who suggest our democratically elected voices are redundant because we belong to political parties," she said.

[GoTfan]

Senator Jacinta Price at the National Press Club today detailing the abuse, threats and vilification she has endured during this process.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-14/senator-jacinta-nampijinpa-price-at-press-club/102855698


Senator Jacinta Price (Facebook)

"[The Voice] is built on lies and an aggressive attempt to fracture our nation's founding document and divide the country built upon it," she said.

"That division has now seen the no campaign branded as being base racism."

She said Indigenous Australians already have a voice as she is one of 11 Indigenous voices — politicians — currently in parliament.

"I will not accept the lie, the rationalisation of many Indigenous voices of the Yes campaign, who suggest our democratically elected voices are redundant because we belong to political parties," she said.

The side she's on has just piled some pretty racist attacks on Professor Langton, as well as the general racism I've seen from a lot of No voters towards First Nations people, such as yourself, Meclazine.

In other news, Warren Mundine continues to prove to the world that he has zero principles other than self advancement:

https://twitter.com/mdavisqlder/status/1702212226642530725

[Meclazine for Israel]

National Press Club Full Address

Senator Jacinta Price

https://www.youtube.com/live/hrinfhtFDlc

Interesting analysis on colonisation of Australia.