New polling shows declining acceptance of transgenderism

[Dan the Roman]

There is almost a total lack of self-awareness on here. An far too much focus on the specifics

- Policies regarding medical transition
- Specific issues like sports


Really, integration, whether it was of German protestant or Irish Catholic immigrants in the 19th century or Jews in the 20th or gays in the early 21st is always about exiting the culture war, not winning it.

Catholics could never aspire to win equality with Protestantism in America. An effort to get the Catholic Church treated as equal to "Protestantism" would have confirmed fears of Papal dominance. So they opted to embrace secularism and remove prayer altogether from the public sphere.

Jews did not try and browbeat antisemitism. They mocked it. Mel Brooks represented a wider trend where Jews took ownership of stereotypes such that no one took them seriously. This again had a wider purpose. Much as the Catholic Church was suspect precisely because of purported ambitions to dominate, any successes in punishing anti-Catholic bigotry would only serve to confirm those views. The same thing was something the Jewish elite grasped.

Gay and Lesbian leaders saw the same thing. Controlling how they themselves were perceived by everyone else was a precursor to everything else. If they demanded X or Y they would get backlash. There is a reason their public position hit its lowest ebb during the 1980s AIDs crisis. However justified, it was the moment when the face of the community was one which wasn't desired to be seen.

Instead they copied the Jewish approach. Gay actors and media portrayals leaned heavily in on the campy approach which made them non-threatening to heterosexual women. Lesbians went hard on trying to either appeal to heterosexual men, or the opposite direction. In effect, the one thing they had in common is they made clear they had no interest in the charge of seducing straights.

The Transgender movement has been ill-timed and ill-advised. Any sense of humor has been put to the wayside. Even a figure like Contra is passe. Instead you got full-scale efforts to mobilize social and institutional pressure to crush opposition. Look at two of the greatest fights.

1. Dave Chapelle
2. JK Rowling

The thing is even if the Trans movement or its supporters gain victories in these fights, they are really defeats because they have effectively proven to critics and neutrals that far from being vulnerable victims trying to live their lives, they represent coddled favorites of societies elites, willing to utilize institutional power to not just punish dissent, but to take away enjoyment from everyone else. At a time when pop culture has never been more divisive for unrelated reasons, and elites are almost universally resented.

"Transgenderism" then is not analogous to the Gay rights movement of the 2000s. It is closer to the Christian Right or the anti-Video game, anti-Drug left of the 1990s. They represent the reason your favorite TV shows, whether old(the Simpsons) or new are all awful. They represent why movies are poorly written. Why RPGS have party members who exist to give you long monologues about trauma that can only be solved by you screwing them. It is identified with the culture war.

Worse, it is also running into a moral panic about a real problem. There is a social contagion affecting young people sexually. The combination of Covid19, early access to porn, and de-socialization is leading to serious issues for a large number of teenagers. Some of those are Trans, many are not, but Transgenderisms advocates, by embracing "sex work" as part of their core agenda have effectively cast themselves as sex positive when even LGBT parents feel there is far too much sex around young people.

The Right, in America and Europe were late comers to this. They did not create it, and blaming them for somehow moving opinion is cope. They did move to take advantage of it when they figured it out, but as they themselves don't understand what they are trying to exploit, their efforts have been met with mixed success.

[The Economy is Getting Worse]

My position:

1.Allow any adult who wants to transition to do so, though they have to pay for the care themselves. Anyone under 18 should not be allowed to do so.

2.One should only be allowed to compete in sports in the gender assigned at birth. In other words, a man who transitions to a woman should not be allowed to compete in women's sports.

3.Busineses should be allowed to associate with whomever they want, and have the right to refuse service.

4.In public spaces, one must use the bathroom for the gender assigned at birth, or a gender neutral one. In private spaces, the businesses do whatever they want.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

The country doesn't like hoarding wealth Christ talks about that but it also says be fruitful and multiply and AIDs is an STD that is found in men not women sex cells you are there to decide for yourself

But, I do think Ds are on the verge of something because hoarding wealth isn't just prideful anymore it's sinful

I don't think OSR or Redban or users that tend to quote party lines understand how wrong for reverse Robinhood tax CUTS

By the way it's not people making under 200K a yr, it's millionaire tax that's the problem that needs fixing that's sinful

McCarthy can save his Speakership if he raised the Wealth tax in the Debt Ceiling but he isn't gonna do so he loses his Speakership with Garcia in CA

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Remember when normal people were in charge of LGBT activism and acceptance went up every year without fail?

Dude... you were like 8-years-old when Obergefell was decided. You do not have any memory of how hard-fought gay marriage was. There were places in California where Prop 8 and Obama both won by like 80 points. Conservatives shouted from the roof-tops about how gay marriage would destroy the institution of marriage and lead to people marrying animals.

Biden saying that he and Obama supported gay marriage a week before the election was considered a major campaign gaffe in 2012. This idea that everything was going perfectly until the trans people decided to get too greedy or whatever is just ahistorical. You genuinely have no idea what you're talking about.

You are not old enough to remember this, but it was very recent (relatively speaking) that most conservatives, a lot of independents, and even some Democrats, talked about gay people the exact same way that people are talking about trans people right now.

It went from 20% to 70% in a relatively direct line. Obviously there was massive resistance, but it was eventually bulldozed through.

The trans activists, however, seem to be being pushed back on all fronts, with acceptance of transgender people decreasing across the board.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Remember when normal people were in charge of LGBT activism and acceptance went up every year without fail?

Dude... you were like 8-years-old when Obergefell was decided. You do not have any memory of how hard-fought gay marriage was. There were places in California where Prop 8 and Obama both won by like 80 points. Conservatives shouted from the roof-tops about how gay marriage would destroy the institution of marriage and lead to people marrying animals.

Biden saying that he and Obama supported gay marriage a week before the election was considered a major campaign gaffe in 2012. This idea that everything was going perfectly until the trans people decided to get too greedy or whatever is just ahistorical. You genuinely have no idea what you're talking about.

You are not old enough to remember this, but it was very recent (relatively speaking) that most conservatives, a lot of independents, and even some Democrats, talked about gay people the exact same way that people are talking about trans people right now.

It went from 20% to 70% in a relatively direct line. Obviously there was massive resistance, but it was eventually bulldozed through.

The trans activists, however, seem to be being pushed back on all fronts, with acceptance of transgender people decreasing across the board.

People also forget that in many other nations gay marriage was being legalized as well so there was a clear trendline in that sense as well. On the other hand when it comes to trans issues, many European nations are restructing underage gender affirming care so the trend is going in the opposite direction on that issue.

For example in the UK, Sunak is basically governing like DeSantis when it comes to this issues but unlike the US the main left of center party isnt really fighting back too.

[HisGrace]

I am not going to comment on the correctness of the views shown in this poll. I will, however, note that under Atlas rules, to state "that transgenderism is an illness, mental condition, or deviant behavior" is prohibited.

Is this really true in regards to the bolded? Wouldn't it then be against the rules to state that sex changes or trans affirming therapy were "healthcare" since that would imply that they were being used to treat an illness or mental condition?

[HisGrace]

This is what happens when you switch from just asking people not to discriminate against you and to cover special needs you have under insurance to sending people death threats for not agreeing with your incoherent nonsense position of the week (biological sex isn't real, gender dysphoria isn't a health condition but sex changes are health care, exc).

[Badger]

Remember when normal people were in charge of LGBT activism and acceptance went up every year without fail?

No. I remember the GAY AGENDA shtick being really popular and gay marriage bans referenda passing in state after state (twice in California!).

Support for banning gay marriage clearly went down from 2000 to 2008 in California though so that’s not a good comparison

Yes, because Republicans started flogging it during that period as a way to Gin up support among rube voters. The same way they are now demonizing transgender people. So yes, it is a very good comparison after all.

[Badger]

What the real concern should be is why so many youth pastors and clergy are accused of actually being predators. The church is the problem, not the transgender community. You are far safer at a pride event than you are in a church.

At the risk of getting modded, I will point out that a disproportionate amount of sexual abuse is homosexual in nature. Does this imply that the LGBT community is the problem?

You've always been something of a laughing stock, but this ignorant Anita Bryant style bigotry really drops from the gutter into the sewer. Same to the two Usual Suspects who recommended your post.

[MasterJedi]

This is what happens when you switch from just asking people not to discriminate against you and to cover special needs you have under insurance to sending people death threats for not agreeing with your incoherent nonsense position of the week (biological sex isn't real, gender dysphoria isn't a health condition but sex changes are health care, exc).

So like Republicans against everything? Moral outrage train can’t stop. Like the 80s and early 90s when they campaigned for the “gay disease” to be left alone.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Remember when normal people were in charge of LGBT activism and acceptance went up every year without fail?

No. I remember the GAY AGENDA shtick being really popular and gay marriage bans referenda passing in state after state (twice in California!).

Support for banning gay marriage clearly went down from 2000 to 2008 in California though so that’s not a good comparison

Yes, because Republicans started flogging it during that period as a way to Gin up support among rube voters. The same way they are now demonizing transgender people. So yes, it is a very good comparison after all.

The difference is other countries were legalizing gay marriage too so the trend was clearly there . On the other hand on trans issues, other countries are restricting under 18 gender affirming care too.

Like keep in mind the UK who legalized gay marriage before we did, now has a PM who is basically governing on that issue like Ron DeSantis has here but the main difference is the Labour party unlike the Democrats arent fighting that hard against it.

[Badger]

Remember when normal people were in charge of LGBT activism and acceptance went up every year without fail?

No. I remember the GAY AGENDA shtick being really popular and gay marriage bans referenda passing in state after state (twice in California!).

Support for banning gay marriage clearly went down from 2000 to 2008 in California though so that’s not a good comparison

Yes, because Republicans started flogging it during that period as a way to Gin up support among rube voters. The same way they are now demonizing transgender people. So yes, it is a very good comparison after all.

The difference is other countries were legalizing gay marriage too so the trend was clearly there . On the other hand on trans issues, other countries are restricting under 18 gender affirming care too.

Like keep in mind the UK who legalized gat marriage before we did, now has a PM who is basically governing on that issue like Ron DeSantis has here but the main difference is the Labour party unlike the Democrats arent fighting that hard against it.

Completely irrelevant nonsense saying what other countries were doing, per usual. The point is here that during the time period you cited Republicans villainized gays, for political advantage and acceptance for gays dropped, again particularly among republicans. And now the exact same thing is happening regarding trans people.

I know it makes you cry to acknowledge that your political party uses organized bigotry to Gin up votes, but oh well reality is a bitch

[OSR stands with Israel]

Remember when normal people were in charge of LGBT activism and acceptance went up every year without fail?

No. I remember the GAY AGENDA shtick being really popular and gay marriage bans referenda passing in state after state (twice in California!).

Support for banning gay marriage clearly went down from 2000 to 2008 in California though so that’s not a good comparison

Yes, because Republicans started flogging it during that period as a way to Gin up support among rube voters. The same way they are now demonizing transgender people. So yes, it is a very good comparison after all.

The difference is other countries were legalizing gay marriage too so the trend was clearly there . On the other hand on trans issues, other countries are restricting under 18 gender affirming care too.

Like keep in mind the UK who legalized gat marriage before we did, now has a PM who is basically governing on that issue like Ron DeSantis has here but the main difference is the Labour party unlike the Democrats arent fighting that hard against it.

Completely irrelevant nonsense saying what other countries were doing, per usual. The point is here that during the time period you cited Republicans villainized gays, for political advantage and acceptance for gays dropped, again particularly among republicans. And now the exact same thing is happening regarding trans people.

I know it makes you cry to acknowledge that your political party uses organized bigotry to Gin up votes, but oh well reality is a bitch

Rishi Sunak is governing like DeSantis on this issue so what the gop is doing isn’t unique at all . Many western conservative parties are doing the same thing and many western left of center parties aren’t putting up strong opposition.


Also popularity of gay marriage increased from 2000 to 2008

[Xing]

Often, people have an annoying tendency of completely rejecting something because a single messenger rubs them the wrong way. It’s perfectly possible to find certain activists obnoxious without concluding that they must be 110% wrong about literally everything.

[Dan the Roman]

Remember when normal people were in charge of LGBT activism and acceptance went up every year without fail?

No. I remember the GAY AGENDA shtick being really popular and gay marriage bans referenda passing in state after state (twice in California!).

Support for banning gay marriage clearly went down from 2000 to 2008 in California though so that’s not a good comparison

Yes, because Republicans started flogging it during that period as a way to Gin up support among rube voters. The same way they are now demonizing transgender people. So yes, it is a very good comparison after all.

The difference is other countries were legalizing gay marriage too so the trend was clearly there . On the other hand on trans issues, other countries are restricting under 18 gender affirming care too.

Like keep in mind the UK who legalized gat marriage before we did, now has a PM who is basically governing on that issue like Ron DeSantis has here but the main difference is the Labour party unlike the Democrats arent fighting that hard against it.

Completely irrelevant nonsense saying what other countries were doing, per usual. The point is here that during the time period you cited Republicans villainized gays, for political advantage and acceptance for gays dropped, again particularly among republicans. And now the exact same thing is happening regarding trans people.

I know it makes you cry to acknowledge that your political party uses organized bigotry to Gin up votes, but oh well reality is a bitch

The claim that Republican politicians in the United States of all places somehow had anything to do with changing sentiment on this issue is beyond absurd and emblematic of everything wrong with discourse.

Ron DeSantis did not know transgender people existed when there was an effort cancel Dave Chapelle. Trump WH staff barely knew there even were trans students in US high schools in 2020. I know because I had a surreal conversation about it.

The way this played out is that Trans Activism placed itself at the forefront of leftwing (white) activism in the Anglosphere at the moment that wider movement resorted to the arbitrary abuse of cultural and social power to make up for losses on Brexit and in the 2016 election. People will mock the idea JKR/Terf Wars/Chappelle et al were more important than bathrooms or sports but they were. They framed "Transgenderism" as Cancel Culture(inc) just in time for the backlash against cancel culture, even on the left to collide straight with it. It is delusional as the Right claiming this is purely a backlash to actual policies or things Trans people did for the Left to claim the Right somehow decided to generate this issue after the experiences in North Carolina. Heck Theresa May and Boris Johnson even were full-steam ahead until they hit the backlash. This was part of a wider backlash.

There is no way a Right which was opposed to Cancel Culture could possibly be anything other than hostile to Trans issues as the Trans issue in the anglosphere is indistinguishable from it. There is virtually no one who is in anyway bothered by any "woke" excesses who somehow does not have an issue with Trans activism. They might (try to) distinguish between Trans individuals and the wider cultural aspects, and they might try and separate issues as many on this thread are doing, but they cannot be for "Trans Rights are human rights." Pro-Trans libertarianism is dead.

What Desantis, Truss, and Sunak did was realize this. They grasped their voters and supporters saw the entire concept of Transgenderism/gender abolition as an assault on themselves and treated it accordingly. They don't understand what is going on either. Otherwise they would have more success.

The only people who have a vague idea of what is going are perhaps a few of the more insightful TERFs. Even someone like Jesse Signal has no clue what he has been involved in.

[Comrade Funk]

I don't give a damn what this poll says. The morons who hate trans people are bigoted freaks afraid of personal liberty.

[Ferguson97]

Washington passed this law :

https://www.kptv.com/2023/04/17/washington-bill-would-allow-transgender-medical-procedures-minors-without-parental-consent/

“An act relating to supporting youth,” or Senate Bill 5599, allows host homes for runaway youth “to house youth without parental permission.” Furthermore, the host homes do not need to notify parents about where their kids are or if they are getting medical interventions “if there is a compelling reason not to, which includes a youth seeking protected health services.”

How could you possibly think that this is a bad thing? If a child is running away from home, they probably have a very good reason for doing so, and notifying the parent of that child's location could put that child's life at risk - whether they're trans or not.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Washington passed this law :

https://www.kptv.com/2023/04/17/washington-bill-would-allow-transgender-medical-procedures-minors-without-parental-consent/

“An act relating to supporting youth,” or Senate Bill 5599, allows host homes for runaway youth “to house youth without parental permission.” Furthermore, the host homes do not need to notify parents about where their kids are or if they are getting medical interventions “if there is a compelling reason not to, which includes a youth seeking protected health services.”

How could you possibly think that this is a bad thing? If a child is running away from home, they probably have a very good reason for doing so, and notifying the parent of that child's location could put that child's life at risk - whether they're trans or not.

This is a terrible assumption to make. There should be an investigation to see if the kid has been abused or wasnt provided for but if neither are the case then yes the authorities should inform the parents of where the kids are.

[Ferguson97]

This is a terrible assumption to make. There should be an investigation to see if the kid has been abused or wasnt provided for but if neither are the case then yes the authorities should inform the parents of where the kids are.

Wow, almost like whether or not "there is a compelling reason not to, which includes a youth seeking protected health services" would be something that would be discovered during this investigation you're suggesting.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

I just wanna say I find the notion that the UK is a model example a funny choice.

There is a current mini constitution crisis in the UK as Westminster is trying to block a Scottish law that allows anyone over 16 to change their gender and Scotland is fighting it in court.

[T'Chenka]

Completely irrelevant nonsense saying what other countries were doing, per usual. The point is here that during the time period you cited Republicans villainized gays, for political advantage and acceptance for gays dropped, again particularly among republicans. And now the exact same thing is happening regarding trans people.

I know it makes you cry to acknowledge that your political party uses organized bigotry to Gin up votes, but oh well reality is a bitch

Rishi Sunak is governing like DeSantis on this issue so what the gop is doing isn’t unique at all . Many western conservative parties are doing the same thing and many western left of center parties aren’t putting up strong opposition.

"But other countries are doing it too" is not a moral argument, in any way, shape or form. Something being semi-common does not automatically make it "not immoral by default". You're just making excuses for the GOP and refusing to admit that they are worthy of criticism. Supporting them doesn't mean that you have to put them on a pedestal.

[OSR stands with Israel]

This is a terrible assumption to make. There should be an investigation to see if the kid has been abused or wasnt provided for but if neither are the case then yes the authorities should inform the parents of where the kids are.

Wow, almost like whether or not "there is a compelling reason not to, which includes a youth seeking protected health services" would be something that would be discovered during this investigation you're suggesting.

The reasons should be explicitly states as otherwise all this does is empower bureaucrats to decide if they think it’s a compelling reason and no they should not be empowered .

Every state should model what Scott Walker did when it comes to bureaucrats

[OSR stands with Israel]

I just wanna say I find the notion that the UK is a model example a funny choice.

There is a current mini constitution crisis in the UK as Westminster is trying to block a Scottish law that allows anyone over 16 to change their gender and Scotland is fighting it in court.

The Labour Party isn’t really fighting Sunak on it

[Mr. Illini]

We were once told that the GOP is moderating on social issues

[7,052,770]

1. There is a difference between gender identity and sexual orientation and trying to conflate the two is ridiculous . I don’t think schools should reveal a kid’s sexual orientation to parents because that’s not a potential medical issue while gender identity is . So these issues are very very different and comparing them is ridiculous

2. If there is evidence that the parents might abuse them then yes schools should be able to hide that info from parents but otherwise no . Also parents not accepting the fact their 7 year old kid identifies as a different gender is not abusive and it’s crazy to consider that so .

When Republican politicians rant and seethe about "groomers," (a term that more than half of Republicans in Congress have used in speeches, social media posts, or official campaign communications), they're talking about you too. Why you think your opinions on this issue align with Republicans more than Democrats is baffling to me.

As you can see no matter how much you try to deny it , schools in progressive states do try to hide a kid changing their gender identity from their parents. Many progressives outright support that and thinking informing parents about their kids changing their gender identity is awful so maybe you living in Mississippi is why you think this doenst happen.

Anyway here are some sources .<snip>

It's a huge country. You can cherrypick examples of anything you want. (Though it's worth pointing out that both of the examples you gave are for teenagers, not 7 year olds, and they look more like cases of the schools not really knowing what to do than some kind of intentional conspiracy to keep parents in the dark.)

You have expressed these opinions before, all of which make you the "groomer" that Republicans rage against.

• It's OK for children to transition if they have their parents permission.
• Texas was extremely in the wrong for breaking up families because a parent or a child was transgender.
• Laws that outright ban puberty blockers are wrong. (You do support a ban on HRT for minors, if I recall correctly, though.)
• Schools should be required to call transgender students by their preferred pronouns if their parents ask them to.
• Schools should not be allowed to reveal a child's sexual orientation to the parents.
• (You may have backed off this one, but in the past you've said that) schools shouldn't reveal high school students gender identities either because it's natural for kids to have more independence at that age.

Yeah, I'm sure we can list a few more examples than the ones you gave of liberals taking things too far in a way that both you and I oppose, but for every one of those, there are likely dozens of schools going too far in the other direction in a way that you and I both oppose. By next year there won't be any red state that allows teachers to use anything but birth pronouns, regardless of what the parents or the teachers themselves might prefer. (This is already the case in a lot of them.) By next year there won't be any red state that allows any time of gender-affirming care under the age of 18. (This is already the case in most of them.) By next year, they're going to be cracking down on transgender adults too. (This is already the case in Texas and Missouri.)

Ok, so neither of us agree 100% with every Democrat on this issue, but you and I clearly align much more strongly with the Democratic Party, to the point that the majority of Republican politicians would label both of us "groomers." I just don't understand how you've deluded yourself into thinking they're not talking about you. It reminds me of that woman who quit working for Matt Walsh recently, who said something to the effect of "I think it's OK to be transgender, even as a child, but I just don't think they should be starting their transition on the first day they express any interest on it." Clearly she's actually well left of center on the issue, but somehow she got in her head that she was a Republican on the issue and the Democrats were way to her left.