Gay man stabbed to death in Bushwick for dancing

[DrScholl]

I can't imagine if the suspect was a conservative Christian that most on this board would stand for people blaming all of Christianity for the stabbing. Islam is very conservative on homosexuality, but that doesn't mean all Muslims go around stabbing gay people. With all the anti-Muslim sentiment that exists a lot of Muslims try to keep a low profile and live as quietly as possible to avoid harm.

[Santander]

How is this worse than Rittenhouse using a straw purchased gun to hunt black people?

[GP270watch]

I can't imagine if the suspect was a conservative Christian that most on this board would stand for people blaming all of Christianity for the stabbing. Islam is very conservative on homosexuality, but that doesn't mean all Muslims go around stabbing gay people. With all the anti-Muslim sentiment that exists a lot of Muslims try to keep a low profile and live as quietly as possible to avoid harm.

Not to mention that LGBTQ Muslims exist as well.

[Sir Mohamed]

I can't imagine if the suspect was a conservative Christian that most on this board would stand for people blaming all of Christianity for the stabbing. Islam is very conservative on homosexuality, but that doesn't mean all Muslims go around stabbing gay people. With all the anti-Muslim sentiment that exists a lot of Muslims try to keep a low profile and live as quietly as possible to avoid harm.

Yup, though the anti-Muslim is often grounded in other reasons than homophobia among Muslims. Anyway, an embarrassing and pathetic crime that needs to be brought to justice. Regardless of his age; at 17 you should know that killing is wrong.

[Badger]

religion of peace let’s not rush to conclusions motives remain undetermined blessings and peace be upon the prophet

you suck.

Imagine pearl-clutching in the face of atrocities like these. Fundamentalism is a stain on the soul of humanity and must be scrubbed out.

Imagining not understanding the difference between fundamentalism and mainstream religion. Yes, Islam does need something of a Reformation, but to lump all Muslims in with someone who stabbed a dude for voguing is definitely you suck territory

Where did I lump all Muslims together?

In your prior post directly above, and don't act cute or like a Bargain Basement pj O Rourke in trying to deny you didn't. Just man up about it instead of being insufferable.

Edit: oh, and one page later in this same thread -

religion of peace let’s not rush to conclusions motives remain undetermined blessings and peace be upon the prophet

The more I read your posts, the more I realize that despite your posturing you’re actually one of the most prejudiced people on this site.

I don’t pretend to not be prejudiced against death cults.

[John Dule]

religion of peace let’s not rush to conclusions motives remain undetermined blessings and peace be upon the prophet

you suck.

Imagine pearl-clutching in the face of atrocities like these. Fundamentalism is a stain on the soul of humanity and must be scrubbed out.

Imagining not understanding the difference between fundamentalism and mainstream religion. Yes, Islam does need something of a Reformation, but to lump all Muslims in with someone who stabbed a dude for voguing is definitely you suck territory

Where did I lump all Muslims together?

In your prior post directly above, and don't act cute or like a Bargain Basement pj O Rourke in trying to deny you didn't. Just man up about it instead of being insufferable.

Edit: oh, and one page later in this same thread -

religion of peace let’s not rush to conclusions motives remain undetermined blessings and peace be upon the prophet

The more I read your posts, the more I realize that despite your posturing you’re actually one of the most prejudiced people on this site.

I don’t pretend to not be prejudiced against death cults.

1) I lump all fundamentalists together, regardless of their particular religion.

2) It’s hardly my fault that the majority of Muslims fall into the category of “fundamentalists.”

[DrScholl]

I can't imagine if the suspect was a conservative Christian that most on this board would stand for people blaming all of Christianity for the stabbing. Islam is very conservative on homosexuality, but that doesn't mean all Muslims go around stabbing gay people. With all the anti-Muslim sentiment that exists a lot of Muslims try to keep a low profile and live as quietly as possible to avoid harm.

Not to mention that LGBTQ Muslims exist as well.

One of my best friends is LGBTQ and Muslim.

[Torie]

Our criminal law lawyers might have another opinion, but it appears that the perp committed second degree murder rather than voluntary manslaughter. I was wondering about that, and whether it mattered who started the fight. The point is moot since mere words and minor battery are never a basis to mitigate the killing down to manslaughter per the below.

https://www.justia.com/criminal/offenses/homicide/voluntary-manslaughter/

I am surprised the guy hasn't been caught yet.

[Badger]

religion of peace let’s not rush to conclusions motives remain undetermined blessings and peace be upon the prophet

you suck.

Imagine pearl-clutching in the face of atrocities like these. Fundamentalism is a stain on the soul of humanity and must be scrubbed out.

Imagining not understanding the difference between fundamentalism and mainstream religion. Yes, Islam does need something of a Reformation, but to lump all Muslims in with someone who stabbed a dude for voguing is definitely you suck territory

Where did I lump all Muslims together?

In your prior post directly above, and don't act cute or like a Bargain Basement pj O Rourke in trying to deny you didn't. Just man up about it instead of being insufferable.

Edit: oh, and one page later in this same thread -

religion of peace let’s not rush to conclusions motives remain undetermined blessings and peace be upon the prophet

The more I read your posts, the more I realize that despite your posturing you’re actually one of the most prejudiced people on this site.

I don’t pretend to not be prejudiced against death cults.

1) I lump all fundamentalists together, regardless of their particular religion.

2) It’s hardly my fault that the majority of Muslims fall into the category of “fundamentalists.”

One. Your original post was hardly it "lump(ing) all fundamentalists together, regardless of their particular religion." It was clearly an attack on Islam in particular. Don't try to walk it back as anything different than that.

Two. On that you and I agree. But again, that is markedly different and commendably more nuanced than your original statement for which you've caught much deserved Flack.

[TheDeadFlagBlues]

Different types of guys who are online reacting to murders:

• Gas all Muslims!!
• Lock up all the Blacks!!
• Fire all the police officers!!
• Put MAGAs into camps!!

Folks, let's just try to have some law and order instead of attributing crimes to various groups that we dislike? Give law enforcement the resources to enforce laws, while also holding them accountable, give the courts money but also fund public defenders and have them 'play ball'. This stuff is none of my business - I want to entrust dealing with crimes to impartial public servants who don't share my various biases. I'm not on a jury, why do I need to have an opinion about some vicious stabbing in Bushwick? Figure out who did it and lock em up.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

Source: Pew Research Center

1) you present this like most evangelicals don’t harp on how America is a Christian country and should have Christian laws

2) speaking of Christian, in the second poll many of the countries listed are majority or plurality Christian.

So not really sure the point you’re trying to make here.

[John Dule]

religion of peace let’s not rush to conclusions motives remain undetermined blessings and peace be upon the prophet

you suck.

Imagine pearl-clutching in the face of atrocities like these. Fundamentalism is a stain on the soul of humanity and must be scrubbed out.

Imagining not understanding the difference between fundamentalism and mainstream religion. Yes, Islam does need something of a Reformation, but to lump all Muslims in with someone who stabbed a dude for voguing is definitely you suck territory

Where did I lump all Muslims together?

In your prior post directly above, and don't act cute or like a Bargain Basement pj O Rourke in trying to deny you didn't. Just man up about it instead of being insufferable.

Edit: oh, and one page later in this same thread -

religion of peace let’s not rush to conclusions motives remain undetermined blessings and peace be upon the prophet

The more I read your posts, the more I realize that despite your posturing you’re actually one of the most prejudiced people on this site.

I don’t pretend to not be prejudiced against death cults.

1) I lump all fundamentalists together, regardless of their particular religion.

2) It’s hardly my fault that the majority of Muslims fall into the category of “fundamentalists.”

One. Your original post was hardly it "lump(ing) all fundamentalists together, regardless of their particular religion." It was clearly an attack on Islam in particular. Don't try to walk it back as anything different than that.

Two. On that you and I agree. But again, that is markedly different and commendably more nuanced than your original statement for which you've caught much deserved Flack.

My original statement was nothing more than idle mockery directed at the morons who I knew would inevitably pollute this thread with their inane “not all Muslims” comments. No, it’s not all Muslims. But it’s most of them.

[T'Chenka]

My original statement was nothing more than idle mockery directed at the morons who I knew would inevitably pollute this thread with their inane “not all Muslims” comments. No, it’s not all Muslims. But it’s most of them.

If we're talking worldwide, then maybe, yes. I'm not so sure that the majority of muslims in North America support sharia law, and specifically support violence in the name of sharia. You and I both live in North America, so when we say "muslims", we're usually talking about the ones we personally interact with. Do you believe that the majority of California muslims are in favour of sharia-motivated violence?

[West_Midlander]

Source: Pew Research Center

Sharia law prescribes stoning of homosexuals to death. There are several countries that engage in this, explicitly citing sharia, to this very day. There are no Christian or Buddhist or Jewish or Hindu or whatever the hell else jurisdictions that do this. When there are numerous countries (as shown by the two charts above) in which a vast majority would like to have me and people like me be stoned to death, damn right I am going to point it out as a problem and not close my ears and eyes and pretend its all just fine because some would rather engage in feel good fantasies.

This is the sort of thing I would have thought unfathomable. For awhile it was. But now here we are.

In 1997 it happened in small town wyoming. Now in 2023 it happens in nyc. Yay progress!!!!!

What are the corresponding numbers for the United States?

Why did people recommend this like it was a gotcha? It seems like a benign question afaik. It's 64%, albeit down from 71%, but way higher than those countries listed.

https://news.gallup.com/poll/507230/fewer-say-sex-relations-morally-acceptable.aspx

[West_Midlander]

What does it matter if the stabber is a MUSLIM?

No matter what race, ethnicity, or religion they were it is still a sickening crime and horrific.

I tend to give non whites more leeway in being homophobic though. Black people are oppressed in our society, so hard for me to get mad at them.

It is actually pretty infantilizing to judge non-white people with a softer, different standard.

[John Dule]

My original statement was nothing more than idle mockery directed at the morons who I knew would inevitably pollute this thread with their inane “not all Muslims” comments. No, it’s not all Muslims. But it’s most of them.

If we're talking worldwide, then maybe, yes. I'm not so sure that the majority of muslims in North America support sharia law, and specifically support violence in the name of sharia. You and I both live in North America, so when we say "muslims", we're usually talking about the ones we personally interact with. Do you believe that the majority of California muslims are in favour of sharia-motivated violence?

No. But I also don’t think it’s particularly instructive to ignore 99.9% of members of a religious group when evaluating the ways in which that religion affects people’s actions.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

2) speaking of Christian, in the second poll many of the countries listed are majority or plurality Christian.

The poll is only of Muslims in those countries.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

2) speaking of Christian, in the second poll many of the countries listed are majority or plurality Christian.

The poll is only of Muslims in those countries.

my mistake, but even if you look at polls for countries that are Christian you have similarly high numbers. Uganda especially is notorious for their recent bill that criminalizes even knowing if someone if gay and not reporting it.

[Horus]

2) speaking of Christian, in the second poll many of the countries listed are majority or plurality Christian.

The poll is only of Muslims in those countries.

my mistake, but even if you look at polls for countries that are Christian you have similarly high numbers. Uganda especially is notorious for their recent bill that criminalizes even knowing if someone if gay and not reporting it.

But there are many, many majority Christian countries that have legalized gay marriage and robust anti-discrimination laws. There are no Muslim countries that have anything close to that. What do you make of that?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The problem with using whataboutery about Christians is there really isn't that much Christian-based anti-LGBT violence, at least in the United States. Even when anti-LGBT hate crimes do happen they're usually based more on other forms of homophobia like "gay panic", it's not like the murderers of Matthew Shepard were devout Christians who thought they were arbitrators of God's will or whatever. You can probably dig up a handful of examples like Eric Rudolph who bombed some gay nightclubs, but they're few and far between. Hence when people try to push that they either make some huge stretches akin to trying to argue that Timothy McVeigh was a Christian terrorist when he openly called himself an agnostic, or as I've seen on Twitter and DU before actually try to argue that refusing to bake cakes for a same-sex wedding is equivalent to murdering an LGBT person. And really the fact that one has to make such immense stretches is proof their argument is so poor to begin with.

...but there isn't really a whole lot of specifically religiously motivated anti-LGBT violence from Muslims in the US either. That is true. Of course per capita considering how much Christians outnumber Muslims it's no doubt significantly way higher amongst Muslims, but the vast majority of Muslims in the US do not engage in such things, that should be obvious. But just resorting to "BuT wHaT aBoUt ChRiStIaNs?" is a really bad faith argument and involves a host of logical fallacies.

[Xing]

This is a horrible tragedy, and I hope the perpetrator is brought to justice. We should never tolerate violence in the name of any religion.

Now, since some here think it’s okay to label Islam in a certain way, I presume they would have no issue with me referring to gun ownership as a death cult. Yes, “Not All Gun Owners” are like that, and most wouldn’t literally become school shooters, but the majority are A-okay with school children and teachers being brutally murdered as long as they get to keep their gun, therefore gun ownership is violent and dangerous.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

2) speaking of Christian, in the second poll many of the countries listed are majority or plurality Christian.

The poll is only of Muslims in those countries.

my mistake, but even if you look at polls for countries that are Christian you have similarly high numbers. Uganda especially is notorious for their recent bill that criminalizes even knowing if someone if gay and not reporting it.

But there are many, many majority Christian countries that have legalized gay marriage and robust anti-discrimination laws. There are no Muslim countries that have anything close to that. What do you make of that?

If you look at where countries legalize and approve of gays it generally is countries that are more “developed”, educated, and democratic. Most of the countries that are the harshest again gays, Afghanistan, Uganda, Russia, El Salvador, etc. are places with low “development”, low education, and poor or no democracy. It just happens that many traditionally Christian countries fit the former and many traditionally Muslim countries fit the later.

This trend in education/development is even present in the US. Mississippi has the lowest HDI in America and the lowest support for gay marriage (but HDI isn’t the perfect metric for this).

[ꙮ]

Source: Pew Research Center

Sharia law prescribes stoning of homosexuals to death. There are several countries that engage in this, explicitly citing sharia, to this very day. There are no Christian or Buddhist or Jewish or Hindu or whatever the hell else jurisdictions that do this. When there are numerous countries (as shown by the two charts above) in which a vast majority would like to have me and people like me be stoned to death, damn right I am going to point it out as a problem and not close my ears and eyes and pretend its all just fine because some would rather engage in feel good fantasies.

This is the sort of thing I would have thought unfathomable. For awhile it was. But now here we are.

In 1997 it happened in small town wyoming. Now in 2023 it happens in nyc. Yay progress!!!!!

Those numbers are disturbing, but it is important to note that the numbers for American Muslims are much better than for others around the world.

2016 ISPU Poll: http://www.ispu.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/AMP-2016-Appendix-III-data-tables.pdf

A majority of American Muslims (55%) said that their religion should not be a source of American law. Only 10% said that their religion should be the main source of American law.

You find the same thing with homosexuality. In a Pew poll from 2014, 45% of American Muslims called homosexuality morally acceptable and 47% called it morally wrong. That's not far off from the general position of the public at the time.

I'm not sure why American Muslims have such different views than others around the world, but I'd say its probably on account of better integration here.

[Santander]

I pray for Sharia in the US.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

This is a horrible tragedy, and I hope the perpetrator is brought to justice. We should never tolerate violence in the name of any religion.

Now, since some here think it’s okay to label Islam in a certain way, I presume they would have no issue with me referring to gun ownership as a death cult. Yes, “Not All Gun Owners” are like that, and most wouldn’t literally become school shooters, but the majority are A-okay with school children and teachers being brutally murdered as long as they get to keep their gun, therefore gun ownership is violent and dangerous.

Actually if you wanted to bring up an example of someone who committed violent acts in the name of gun rights (which is different than simply using a gun in a violent action), Timothy McVeigh isn't a terrible example, it's a slight stretch, but only a slight one (as opposed to the insane levels to argue that he counts as a Christian terrorist.)