When Students Change Gender Identity, and Parents Don’t Know

[TransfemmeGoreVidal]

I miss the era where a woman could be masculine and a man feminine without being considered trans. "Gender is a social construct" and all that, remember? That was less than a decade ago. I will never understand why the left became even more rigid on gender roles than the right, but in a different way.

They still can be. Femininity and Masculinity are different from your gender identity. I wear nail polish and like brightly colored clothes yet nobody has ever tried to convince me I must actually be a woman. There's also transwoman that are tomboyish and transmen that are feminine. This argument seems like a red herring.

[TransfemmeGoreVidal]

average Alben Barkley post is a noun, verb, and "trannies are killing the Democratic Party"

Alben Barkley in 1962 "All of these northern agitators are killing the Democratic Party and will cost us the solid south!"

[Agafin]

I miss the era where a woman could be masculine and a man feminine without being considered trans. "Gender is a social construct" and all that, remember? That was less than a decade ago. I will never understand why the left became even more rigid on gender roles than the right, but in a different way.

They still can be.

Based on everything I read online, that's pretty much not the case in leftist circles anymore. There are way too many stories about teens or even people younger deciding to socially transition today.

[Xing]

This issue has caused people to go to unhealthy, Orwellian extremes. Schools have to report a students planning to do harm to themselves or others, but should be under no obligation to report this sort of personal issue to parents, especially when it can cause a rift in the family. And if we're actually going to entertain the argument that this sort of thing can be a "phase", then deliberately and immediately outing a student to their parents is probably the worst thing a school can do. It'll put the student's back against the wall, and force them to commit one way or the other, when in reality they might not be ready to do so, and the better strategy is just letting them explore and come to the right conclusion in time. And I don't see anything about this school offering any sort of medication to the student, so I don't see the problem.

Yes, being trans is not the same thing as being gay, but the backlash against this so obviously comes from a similar place. It's sad how people have gone from being (understandably, IMO) confused by this, and claiming "I'm not sure what I think about this" to these melodramatic tirades about how young people coming out as trans is "ruining society" (sure sounds familiar...) There are a few students who want to use they/them pronouns at my school, and I can assure you that they are in no way ruining school for other students, or even making them particularly uncomfortable. What does ruin school for students here are those who have zero emotional regulation and those who are intentionally rude and even cruel. The fact that some of you would go to these emotional extremes when your lives aren't even affected by this situation is telling.

Just because you don't understand why or how someone would want to recognize as a different gender (heck, I can't say I fully get it) doesn't mean that it's impossible or that your perception is the only one that should count. Identity is messy, let young people explore it a bit without demanding that they be micromanaged by their parents every step of the way.

I miss the era where a woman could be masculine and a man feminine without being considered trans. "Gender is a social construct" and all that, remember? That was less than a decade ago. I will never understand why the left became even more rigid on gender roles than the right, but in a different way.

They still can be.

Based on everything I read online, that's pretty much not the case in leftist circles anymore. There are way too many stories about teens or even people younger deciding to socially transition today.

I have never met someone in real life who unironically thinks that if Oliver likes musical theater and the color pink that they're actually Olivia. Not even the people I know who go really, really far on most issues argue this. I've only ever seen right-wingers dig up Tweets from random people as "evidence" that this is what "the left" thinks.

[SWE]

I miss the era where a woman could be masculine and a man feminine without being considered trans. "Gender is a social construct" and all that, remember? That was less than a decade ago. I will never understand why the left became even more rigid on gender roles than the right, but in a different way.

If you want to be a feminine male or masculine female, no trans person will ever give you a hard time over it, but if a transphobe sees you in a public restroom they might assault you

[Figueira]

I miss the era where a woman could be masculine and a man feminine without being considered trans. "Gender is a social construct" and all that, remember? That was less than a decade ago. I will never understand why the left became even more rigid on gender roles than the right, but in a different way.

Repeating this lie over and over again doesn't make it true.

[Born to Slay. Forced to Work.]

I miss the era where a woman could be masculine and a man feminine without being considered trans. "Gender is a social construct" and all that, remember? That was less than a decade ago. I will never understand why the left became even more rigid on gender roles than the right, but in a different way.

If you want to be a feminine male or masculine female, no trans person will ever give you a hard time over it, but if a transphobe sees you in a public restroom they might assault you

Reminds me at the very start of this trans panic in like 2018 when a masc presenting (afab) woman could arrested for using the woman’s bathroom

[Figueira]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

Where are the Atlas militant child abuse opponents to explain why child abuse is bad?

Also, shame on NYT for publishing this hateful nonsense.

[Liminal Trans Girl]

If someone is Trans and their parents would abuse them for being trans, should the school reveal their gender identity to the School?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

Where are the Atlas militant child abuse opponents to explain why child abuse is bad?

Also, shame on NYT for publishing this hateful nonsense.

Your and Ferguson’s definition of child abuse is beyond absurd

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

This kid is almost certainly NOT really trans and certainly should NOT be allowed to mutilate her body by cutting her breasts off and going on dangerous hormones.

The thing is that the student in question probably wasn't trans. That's the real issue here.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, yes. Mental illness is not inherently something that needs to be buried and destroyed.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

This kid is almost certainly NOT really trans and certainly should NOT be allowed to mutilate her body by cutting her breasts off and going on dangerous hormones.

The thing is that the student in question probably wasn't trans. That's the real issue here.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness, yes. Mental illness is not inherently something that needs to be buried and destroyed.

Why should some people be allowed to entertain their mental illness in real life and not other people (like this person)?

I was not in support of this decision, and neither was Alben iirc

[Del Tachi]

Outing students can be incredibly dangerous to their mental and physical health. Schools should absolutely not reveal a kids gender identity or sexuality or anything that could be dangerous to a kid.

Hell growing up in the south I knew kids who would have been in a decent amount of trouble just for dating a different race if the school told on them to their parents. People can be downright hateful towards their kids

"Outing" is not at issue here.  There is a big difference between a conversation held in confidence between a student and a responsible adult (i.e., teacher, counselor, coach, etc.) and an open secret that the entire school participates in hiding from the student's family.  The latter is inappropriate, dangerous and humiliating for parents.  Schools should neither make nor enforce any official change to a student's record (i.e., name, gender, etc.) without the express written consent of the parents.  Individual teachers should accommodate a student's preferred name/pronouns only within their own discretion, not as a universal policy or requirement.

[Ferguson97]

Outing students can be incredibly dangerous to their mental and physical health. Schools should absolutely not reveal a kids gender identity or sexuality or anything that could be dangerous to a kid.

Hell growing up in the south I knew kids who would have been in a decent amount of trouble just for dating a different race if the school told on them to their parents. People can be downright hateful towards their kids

"Outing" is not at issue here.  There is a big difference between a conversation held in confidence between a student and a responsible adult (i.e., teacher, counselor, coach, etc.) and an open secret that the entire school participates in hiding from the student's family.  The latter is inappropriate, dangerous and humiliating for parents.  Schools should neither make nor enforce any official change to a student's record (i.e., name, gender, etc.) without the express written consent of the parents.  Individual teachers should accommodate a student's preferred name/pronouns only within their own discretion, not as a universal policy or requirement.

Why specifically is it different?

If anything, if a kid is comfortable enough to be openly trans at school, but is still in the closest at home, it's probably for a very good reason - it could be a personal safety issue.

[Ferguson97]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

Where are the Atlas militant child abuse opponents to explain why child abuse is bad?

Also, shame on NYT for publishing this hateful nonsense.

Your and Ferguson’s definition of child abuse is beyond absurd

Question for you, OSR. If you're 15-year-old cousin (I don't know if you have one, just entertain the hypothetical) came out to you as transgender, and asked you not to tell their mom and dad (your aunt and uncle), would you out them or would you respect their wishes?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

Where are the Atlas militant child abuse opponents to explain why child abuse is bad?

Also, shame on NYT for publishing this hateful nonsense.

Your and Ferguson’s definition of child abuse is beyond absurd

Question for you, OSR. If you're 15-year-old cousin (I don't know if you have one, just entertain the hypothetical) came out to you as transgender, and asked you not to tell their mom and dad (your aunt and uncle), would you out them or would you respect their wishes?

In most cases no , but this is not a good comparison. I don’t have government authority or stature so that’s a whole different story .

[Ferguson97]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

Where are the Atlas militant child abuse opponents to explain why child abuse is bad?

Also, shame on NYT for publishing this hateful nonsense.

Your and Ferguson’s definition of child abuse is beyond absurd

Question for you, OSR. If you're 15-year-old cousin (I don't know if you have one, just entertain the hypothetical) came out to you as transgender, and asked you not to tell their mom and dad (your aunt and uncle), would you out them or would you respect their wishes?

In most cases no , but this is not a good comparison. I don’t have government authority or stature so that’s a whole different story .

I'm trying to get you to understand why we want to protect students by keeping their identities a secret.

So I'll ask you to elaborate. Why wouldn't you out your cousin?

[OSR stands with Israel]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

Where are the Atlas militant child abuse opponents to explain why child abuse is bad?

Also, shame on NYT for publishing this hateful nonsense.

Your and Ferguson’s definition of child abuse is beyond absurd

Question for you, OSR. If you're 15-year-old cousin (I don't know if you have one, just entertain the hypothetical) came out to you as transgender, and asked you not to tell their mom and dad (your aunt and uncle), would you out them or would you respect their wishes?

In most cases no , but this is not a good comparison. I don’t have government authority or stature so that’s a whole different story .

I'm trying to get you to understand why we want to protect students by keeping their identities a secret.

So I'll ask you to elaborate. Why wouldn't you out your cousin?

I mean when I have friends who have misbehaved in certain ways ,and I didnt  tell their parents lol but schools in certain instances have to. 

You cannot compare an individual to individual relationship to a school to a student .

[Mercenary]

I oppose the high school's actions. I do not consider a school to be a place responsible for raising a child, a school should merely provide and education unless the school is a private organization with the express mission to assist in some manner in non educational issues. You can agree or disagree with how parents handle an issue but ultimately it is the parents choice. Just like I disagree with parents who would get their child "hormone therapy", I respect it is their choice as parents. If a school wants to help a student play make believe, then that is their choice and subject to residents of the school district to act accordingly but withholding informatiin about a student from their parents should be illegal and the parents should be able to take legal action, if they so choose.

I certainly would withdraw my child from any school that withheld important information and would take any legal action possible.

The only exception to this is when there is objective abuse or extreme neglect, but controversial issues like this hardly qualify as objective. At most you could argue subjective abuse, that is abuse based on your personal political view on the issue, but that is too low a bar to override parental choice.

[Cassandra]

I do not consider a school to be a place responsible for raising a child, a school should merely provide and education unless the school is a private organization with the express mission to assist in some manner in non educational issues.

Impossible.

Schools hold kids for ~35 hours/week. Therefore, teachers and administrators are forced to navigate all manner of personal and social concerns in their schools. There was a time when teachers were trusted to teach, counsel, and discipline students as they saw fit without parents breathing down their necks. These days, parents circle schools like vultures, and every move a teacher makes has a million regulatory implications. This state of affairs creates an impossible contradiction, given just how much time students are forced to spend together within schools. Teachers (and the schools they represent) have lost their discretion, and therefore their authority within their classrooms. If parents are given the ability to micromanage every single aspect of their child's education and socialization, the school system will gripped by total paralysis.

[CookieDamage]

Outing someone as gay or trans to their parents is one of the most vile things that you can do, and it's reprehensible that so many on Atlas want to force schools and teachers to do this.

It's honestly incredibly insulting to gay people to insinuate that their inborn sexual orientation is equivalent to a confused autistic/mentally ill teenager struggling to find her identity. Considering gender dysphoria, unlike homosexuality, is a mental illness, parents should absolutely be in the loop when it comes to how to treat the condition. And that's when it's even an accurate diagnosis, which I am highly skeptical it is in this case.

But you know, to some people virtue signaling to fellow "woke" people online that they are on the "right side of history" (so they -- I believe falsely -- assume anyway) is more important than the actual mental and physical health of children. Clearly.

As a gay person it's actually not incredibly insulting to compare sexual orientation to struggling over gender identity. Please don't speak for me and pull me into your obsessive hatred.

[Del Tachi]

Outing students can be incredibly dangerous to their mental and physical health. Schools should absolutely not reveal a kids gender identity or sexuality or anything that could be dangerous to a kid.

Hell growing up in the south I knew kids who would have been in a decent amount of trouble just for dating a different race if the school told on them to their parents. People can be downright hateful towards their kids

"Outing" is not at issue here.  There is a big difference between a conversation held in confidence between a student and a responsible adult (i.e., teacher, counselor, coach, etc.) and an open secret that the entire school participates in hiding from the student's family.  The latter is inappropriate, dangerous and humiliating for parents.  Schools should neither make nor enforce any official change to a student's record (i.e., name, gender, etc.) without the express written consent of the parents.  Individual teachers should accommodate a student's preferred name/pronouns only within their own discretion, not as a universal policy or requirement.

Why specifically is it different?

If anything, if a kid is comfortable enough to be openly trans at school, but is still in the closest at home, it's probably for a very good reason - it could be a personal safety issue.

I think it's confused what we're actually talking about ITT. 

I think the situation that currently exists at most schools is something like the following, and I think this is a pretty acceptable status-quo for "both sides" of this issue:

1.  Teenagers go to school and assume all kinds of identities (whether real or "a phase") that they would not at home.

2.  Teachers generally accomodate these identities.  I remember most teachers being pretty chill about using a different/preferred name for a student if he asked.  Pronouns are really not that important (how often is a teacher referring to a student in the third-person, anyway?)

3.  School employees are not in the business of reporting students social or personal lives back to their parents, unless there is a disciplinary or safety issue.  If parents call the school and ask who their child is hanging out with/what they're doing outside of class, the school is not required to tell them.

Any changes to the above to make things either better or worse for trans students is not advisable.  The CA high school made a mistake when, after being approached by the student, they directed school staff and policy in such a way that amounted to an official change in the student's gender without the parents knowing.  They could have handled the situation much more discreetly.     

[Ferguson97]

Where are the Atlas militant trans activists to explain why this is acceptable?

Where are the Atlas militant child abuse opponents to explain why child abuse is bad?

Also, shame on NYT for publishing this hateful nonsense.

Your and Ferguson’s definition of child abuse is beyond absurd

Question for you, OSR. If you're 15-year-old cousin (I don't know if you have one, just entertain the hypothetical) came out to you as transgender, and asked you not to tell their mom and dad (your aunt and uncle), would you out them or would you respect their wishes?

In most cases no , but this is not a good comparison. I don’t have government authority or stature so that’s a whole different story .

I'm trying to get you to understand why we want to protect students by keeping their identities a secret.

So I'll ask you to elaborate. Why wouldn't you out your cousin?

I mean when I have friends who have misbehaved in certain ways ,and I didnt  tell their parents lol but schools in certain instances have to. 

You cannot compare an individual to individual relationship to a school to a student .

How should schools act when the best interests of the students are in conflict with the wishes of the parents?

[Torie]

Characterizing issues with gender as a mental illness is 1) tendentious, 2) not helpful to the discussion, and 3) generates reports (some with potential merit). If it persists, I am locking the thread. It's moving towards entrophy anyway after an in general productive discussion. When you start throwing names and labels around to escalate a discussion, it is a not a manifestation of erudition. It is a display of immaturity.

[Sirius_]

It doesn't really matter if you call gender dysphoria a "mental illness" because the only proven cure is gender transition. Maybe some cases go away on their own but there is no way to un-trans someone who is decidedly trans.