"The US was wrong to invade Iraq, therefore it's OK for Russia to invade Ukraine."

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Yes, although this is a pretty common talking point of the "anti-war" left.

[Bleach Blonde Bad Built Butch Bodies for Biden]

Lots of r-tards on the Omegle politics tag, including one guy I met claiming to be from Russia, use this exact argument. The Ruskie's basically just supporting the war for "my country wrong or right" reasons, and basically said that no American can criticize it because we uniformly supported the Iraq War. I told him this was untrue and I never supported the Iraq War because I don't let the government's position dictate my thinking. The whole concept just baffled him.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Speaking of the Iraq War this idea that America is solely responsible is dumb. Between Bush and Blair it is quite clear who would be more likely to actually do something like that.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Speaking of the Iraq War this idea that America is solely responsible is dumb. Between Bush and Blair it is quite clear who would be more likely to actually do something like that.

Could Blair had single-handedly caused a war with Iraq, though? He was an Atlanticist. Atlanticist means you don't start a war with US  as buddy-buddy partner, no? It isn't exactly the 1950s. Britain lacks the ability to act as an autonomous actor in the region anymore.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Speaking of the Iraq War this idea that America is solely responsible is dumb. Between Bush and Blair it is quite clear who would be more likely to actually do something like that.

Could Blair had single-handedly caused a war with Iraq, though? He was an Atlanticist. Atlanticist means you don't start a war with US  as buddy-buddy partner, no? It isn't exactly the 1950s.

No, I'm saying Blair gets a lot less flak than he should.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Speaking of the Iraq War this idea that America is solely responsible is dumb. Between Bush and Blair it is quite clear who would be more likely to actually do something like that.

Could Blair had single-handedly caused a war with Iraq, though? He was an Atlanticist. Atlanticist means you don't start a war with US  as buddy-buddy partner, no? It isn't exactly the 1950s.

No, I'm saying Blair gets a lot less flak than he should.

Considering that he was unwilling to go in Iraq without US support and the US was the hegemon of the time without any serious competition, I don't think it's *wrong* to blame Bush for the start of the war and at least mostly absolve Blair for it starting.

[Liminal Trans Girl]

It was wrong for the US to invade Iraq, and it's wrong for Russia to invade Ukraine

[Antonio the Sixth]

Speaking of the Iraq War this idea that America is solely responsible is dumb. Between Bush and Blair it is quite clear who would be more likely to actually do something like that.

Could Blair had single-handedly caused a war with Iraq, though? He was an Atlanticist. Atlanticist means you don't start a war with US  as buddy-buddy partner, no? It isn't exactly the 1950s.

No, I'm saying Blair gets a lot less flak than he should.

He got kicked out by his own party and is now widely seen as an embarrassment in the UK. Meanwhile the GOP stood by Dubya to the end and now even Democrats are starting to rehabilitate him.

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

Speaking of the Iraq War this idea that America is solely responsible is dumb. Between Bush and Blair it is quite clear who would be more likely to actually do something like that.

Could Blair had single-handedly caused a war with Iraq, though? He was an Atlanticist. Atlanticist means you don't start a war with US  as buddy-buddy partner, no? It isn't exactly the 1950s.

No, I'm saying Blair gets a lot less flak than he should.

He got kicked out by his own party and is now widely seen as an embarrassment in the UK. Meanwhile the GOP stood by Dubya to the end and now even Democrats are starting to rehabilitate him.

Regardless, I can't imagine support for the Iraq war is that much higher in the US than in any of the other participating countries, now at least.

[CumbrianLefty]

He got kicked out by his own party

Not really true tbh - he left power at pretty much the time and manner of his own choosing, and with still quite a bit of goodwill from Labour people despite the Iraq folly.

Its his behaviour *since* departing office that has really made him persona non grata with so many.

[Antonio the Sixth]

He got kicked out by his own party

Not really true tbh - he left power at pretty much the time and manner of his own choosing, and with still quite a bit of goodwill from Labour people despite the Iraq folly.

Its his behaviour *since* departing office that has really made him persona non grata with so many.

I'm pretty sure I read before that he had been planning to stay on longer and that Gordon Brown was able to knife him at least impact due to the lingering bad blood from the Iraq war.

[Cassius]

He got kicked out by his own party

Not really true tbh - he left power at pretty much the time and manner of his own choosing, and with still quite a bit of goodwill from Labour people despite the Iraq folly.

Its his behaviour *since* departing office that has really made him persona non grata with so many.

I'm pretty sure I read before that he had been planning to stay on longer and that Gordon Brown was able to knife him at least impact due to the lingering bad blood from the Iraq war.

He did want to stay longer, but his leaving was more to do with the increasingly widespread perception that it was Gordon Brown’s turn to have the rattle and that he would throw everybody’s toys out of the pram if he didn’t get rattle, as opposed to concerns over Iraq per se (which Brown had, after all, backed). If we want to talk policy reasons then Blair’s increasingly full throated embrace of the ‘choice agenda’ during his final term in office was probably a bigger millstone around his neck within the Labour Party than Iraq.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Yes, although this is a pretty common talking point of the "anti-war" left.

If i murder a person, would it be ok for you to murder a person because I did it?

It's the same thing.

Also it is not entirely the same. CB & circumstances are entirely different. Russia's war is actually more evil.

Doesn't mean tho that Iraq and all wars in the Middle East to a larger extent were pretty evil, from all major powers. The Arab-Central Asia-Maghreb Area has been treated horrible by the west in the last 120 years (and maybe before too given the Ottoman Empire was seen as a joke "the sick man of Europe"). To be fair, the Arabs have treated other people also badly when they conquered territory centuries and centuries ago (notably when they attacked Persia at the time). There is a reason why no organized zoroastrian religion is around today. We christians had crusades and persecuted other believers, but muslims did the same thing. Christianity is more of a liberal religion today maybe, but historically was one of the most repressive religions ever, esp. whenever it had spread over most of Europe and the Roman Empire. And if you look at the US, i see little difference between the theocratic hard right and extremist radical muslims in the middle east.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Speaking of the Iraq War this idea that America is solely responsible is dumb. Between Bush and Blair it is quite clear who would be more likely to actually do something like that.

Could Blair had single-handedly caused a war with Iraq, though? He was an Atlanticist. Atlanticist means you don't start a war with US  as buddy-buddy partner, no? It isn't exactly the 1950s. Britain lacks the ability to act as an autonomous actor in the region anymore.

I don't think so but a real left wing person would not have agreed or voted for Iraq, and that's what Blair and Hillary Clinton exactly did, agreeing that we had to go to war.

It's embarrassing and kinda insulting that Blair is viewed in a more respectable way here on the forum than Corbyn, who was an activist against the war in Iraq, yet most Democrats here prefer Blair over him (even if they agree that the war in Iraq was horrible), but the same people would propose invading Venezuela for the memes so that Florida would swing back to the Democrats. So i'm not exactly sure if they really are anti-Iraq.

Trump when campaigning for president in 2016 attacked Jeb on his brothers credentials on the war. Just saying that Hillary would not have been able to do the same, she voted for it. She directly contributed more to Iraq than Jeb did. Hate Trump for whatever you want, and it's justified most of the time, but he was sort of the anti-war candidate, and in 4 years of him being president, all we got was much blablabla and talk, insulting a few European leaders, attacking a general Soleimani in Iran and doing an air strike in Syria... What would Hillary have done if her advisors told her to go to war to Iran and what advisors would she appoint. Would Hillary have kept the USA out of war like Trump did (aside of the insurgency in Afghanistan which Trump+Biden retreated from - which was a good thing despite the Taliban taking over).

If Bush is going to be tried for war crimes, so does Blair. And that's why i am not an Atlanticist when it comes to offensive wars or offensive diplomacy/geopolitical sphere. If the USA does one thing again, i will stay out of the war and at least be neutral and if i could or had enough influence be sort of against their war efforts. But i would also side to defend Ukraine, and not be different in that regard. Ukraine is the nation being attacked here.

[Red Velvet]

Lots of r-tards on the Omegle politics tag, including one guy I met claiming to be from Russia, use this exact argument. The Ruskie's basically just supporting the war for "my country wrong or right" reasons, and basically said that no American can criticize it because we uniformly supported the Iraq War. I told him this was untrue and I never supported the Iraq War because I don't let the government's position dictate my thinking. The whole concept just baffled him.

You can rewrite history but the fact is that in US anyone who opposed that war was treated like a national enemy, from Barbara Lee only for presenting dissent to Michael Moore being booed at the Oscars for calling out Bush. Media convinced Americans to hate on the French and change French fries name just for not getting into their bullsh**t. The national consensus in early 00s was basically the population being convinced through their ignorance they needed to bomb ANY Arab country because 9/11 was some random Arabs involved, so why not put it into Iraq?

At least more Russians KNOW what the hell they’re doing it in Ukraine and have a clear goal even if you think it’s sh**tty: Prevent Ukraine from becoming a western country alligned to them when it’s in their borders. Most Americans didn’t even know what the hell Iraq was for other than working as this racist emotional relief that something was being done to get justice, even if Iraq government had nothing to do with 9/11 (and even the involved were Saudis at their majority).

And the Bush government KNEW it was just a way to make some money. They openly tried to get other countries on board with the argument they could participate on reconstruction efforts, like war is just a business. Everyone with a brain knew it but US population was still mostly brainwashed by the national media to be convinced the war was necessary. How is that so different from what happens in Russia?

The neoconservative ideology is treated as a flesh and blood thing with the US national identity because media has a lot of sway over how people see things and think, which limits critical thinking.

The point is not to say Russia is right to invade Ukraine just because “The US also did it to non-whiter countries”, but to point the moral hypocrisy of US on having NO higher standard to get involved in this to point fingers when they have similar internal propaganda machine that puts society in favor of foreign wars and interventions.

It’s like, “It’s great when we adopt neoconservatism, but horrible when Russia or anyone we dislike does it”.

[CumbrianLefty]

He got kicked out by his own party

Not really true tbh - he left power at pretty much the time and manner of his own choosing, and with still quite a bit of goodwill from Labour people despite the Iraq folly.

Its his behaviour *since* departing office that has really made him persona non grata with so many.

I'm pretty sure I read before that he had been planning to stay on longer and that Gordon Brown was able to knife him at least impact due to the lingering bad blood from the Iraq war.

He did want to stay longer, but his leaving was more to do with the increasingly widespread perception that it was Gordon Brown’s turn to have the rattle and that he would throw everybody’s toys out of the pram if he didn’t get rattle, as opposed to concerns over Iraq per se (which Brown had, after all, backed). If we want to talk policy reasons then Blair’s increasingly full throated embrace of the ‘choice agenda’ during his final term in office was probably a bigger millstone around his neck within the Labour Party than Iraq.

Again, not really. He made up his mind before the 2005 GE that he would step down some time fairly soon after he had completed 10 years as PM - the "pledge" to do a full third term was always a fiction in reality. The bolshiness led by Tom Watson in autumn 2006 *may* have brought forward his leaving by around six months, but that really is about it.

Agree about both Brown's impatience to take over and "public sector reform" being a major point of disagreement with Blair in the mid-noughties (and personally I sided with the sceptics, then and now)

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Lots of r-tards on the Omegle politics tag, including one guy I met claiming to be from Russia, use this exact argument. The Ruskie's basically just supporting the war for "my country wrong or right" reasons, and basically said that no American can criticize it because we uniformly supported the Iraq War. I told him this was untrue and I never supported the Iraq War because I don't let the government's position dictate my thinking. The whole concept just baffled him.

You can rewrite history but the fact is that in US anyone who opposed that war was treated like a national enemy, from Barbara Lee only for presenting dissent to Michael Moore being booed at the Oscars for calling out Bush. Media convinced Americans to hate on the French and change French fries name just for not getting into their bullsh**t. The national consensus in early 00s was basically the population being convinced through their ignorance they needed to bomb ANY Arab country because 9/11 was some random Arabs involved, so why not put it into Iraq?

At least more Russians KNOW what the hell they’re doing it in Ukraine and have a clear goal even if you think it’s sh**tty: Prevent Ukraine from becoming a western country alligned to them when it’s in their borders. Most Americans didn’t even know what the hell Iraq was for other than working as this racist emotional relief that something was being done to get justice, even if Iraq government had nothing to do with 9/11 (and even the involved were Saudis at their majority).

And the Bush government KNEW it was just a way to make some money. They openly tried to get other countries on board with the argument they could participate on reconstruction efforts, like war is just a business. Everyone with a brain knew it but US population was still mostly brainwashed by the national media to be convinced the war was necessary. How is that so different from what happens in Russia?

The neoconservative ideology is treated as a flesh and blood thing with the US national identity because media has a lot of sway over how people see things and think, which limits critical thinking.

The point is not to say Russia is right to invade Ukraine just because “The US also did it to non-whiter countries”, but to point the moral hypocrisy of US on having NO higher standard to get involved in this to point fingers when they have similar internal propaganda machine that puts society in favor of foreign wars and interventions.

It’s like, “It’s great when we adopt neoconservatism, but horrible when Russia or anyone we dislike does it”.

I voted against George W. Bush and opposed the Iraq War from the start. None of that applies to me.

[SInNYC]

The Iraq war was completely wrong. Moreover, if any other country did what we did, they would have been accused of war crimes, and the use of mercenaries private contractors. In a just world, ISIS refugees would be apportioned to USA, UK, Poland, Australia, and a few other countries, and W/Cheney/Blair would be at the Hague.

However, this has nothing to do with Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Two wrongs dont make a right. Also, they arent really comparable - one is about a country taking over a neighbor to establish its sphere of influence, while the other is about some know-nothings invading a country because of something they dreamt up. Ukraine would be more analogous to a hypothethical invasion of Cuba.

[OSR stands with Israel]

If Zelensky was anywhere near as evil as Saddam Hussain was , I highly doubt much of the world would have come to his support. Hell I doubt the people of Ukraine would even show anywhere near the resolve they have to fight and Russia very well may have taken Kyiv in a week .

[darklordoftech]

It was wrong for the US to invade Iraq, and it's wrong for Russia to invade Ukraine

If i murder a person, would it be ok for you to murder a person because I did it?

[KaiserDave]

Speaking of the Iraq War this idea that America is solely responsible is dumb. Between Bush and Blair it is quite clear who would be more likely to actually do something like that.

Uhhh…Bush? Yeah it’s Bush

[Mr. Smith]

Not even close. There are worse arguments.

[Antonio the Sixth]

Speaking of the Iraq War this idea that America is solely responsible is dumb. Between Bush and Blair it is quite clear who would be more likely to actually do something like that.

Uhhh…Bush? Yeah it’s Bush

TFM's bizarre obsession with hating everything European is leading him to build up a whole alternate reality where Europeans are responsible for everything bad ever done in the world. It's especially silly in this case since Brits are barely European anyway.

[HisGrace]

It's a fundamentally illogical argument and Saddam sure as hell was not Zelensky.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

(and maybe before too given the Ottoman Empire was seen as a joke "the sick man of Europe").

Ah yes, the poor, put-upon Ottoman Empire that never did anything nasty to anyone.