Marjorie Taylor-Greene Seeks to Criminalize Gender-Affirming Care for Minors

[7,052,770]

Of course, never in history has the medical establishment been wrong about anything. We should just adhere to everything they say and not ask questions. Just listen to the experts and nod.

It is other medical experts who should be challenging the consensus, not random lay people who don't really know what they're talking about, instead relying on feelings and political views.

In that case no one without a post doctorate in endocrinology or whatever should be commenting on gender affirming care for minors.

Yeah, for puberty blockers and hormones that sounds about right. Who else would know what they're talking about?

However, those same people probably don't know enough about the details of surgery.

[Devout Centrist]

Falsely implying I support secret experiments on marginalized groups is a gross personal attack for which you have no evidence and I am reporting this. Seek help.

If I recall correctly, it was you that called us a bunch of evil eugenicists?

[DaleCooper]

Of course, never in history has the medical establishment been wrong about anything. We should just adhere to everything they say and not ask questions. Just listen to the experts and nod.

It is other medical experts who should be challenging the consensus, not random lay people who don't really know what they're talking about, instead relying on feelings and political views.

In that case no one without a post doctorate in endocrinology or whatever should be commenting on gender affirming care for minors.

Yeah, for puberty blockers and hormones that sounds about right. Who else would know what they're talking about?

However, those same people probably don't know enough about the details of surgery.

Democrats need to stop with their worship of credentialed authority. It doesn't take much education at all to recognize that giving children and minors cross-sex hormones and puberty-suppressant drugs is incredibly destructive to the body in almost all cases. I don't need a post doctorate in endocrinology to recognize that, same as how I don't need to be a paleontologist to tell you that man didn't coexist with the T-rex.

[Mr. Reactionary]

Falsely implying I support secret experiments on marginalized groups is a gross personal attack for which you have no evidence and I am reporting this. Seek help.

If I recall correctly, it was you that called us a bunch of evil eugenicists?

Where did I single out any individual poster and call them a eugenicist? Trick question. I didnt.

[Ferguson97]

Falsely implying I support secret experiments on marginalized groups is a gross personal attack for which you have no evidence and I am reporting this. Seek help.

If I recall correctly, it was you that called us a bunch of evil eugenicists?

Where did I single out any individual poster and call them a eugenicist? Trick question. I didnt.

"Yes, I wrote a rant about how the transgenders are agents of Satan and their supports on this forum are equivalent to child abusers, and then I compared trans-affirming care to one of the most famous examples of eugenics in the history of this nation... but I didn't name anyone specific, so it doesn't count as a personal attack."

[7,052,770]

Of course, never in history has the medical establishment been wrong about anything. We should just adhere to everything they say and not ask questions. Just listen to the experts and nod.

It is other medical experts who should be challenging the consensus, not random lay people who don't really know what they're talking about, instead relying on feelings and political views.

In that case no one without a post doctorate in endocrinology or whatever should be commenting on gender affirming care for minors.

Yeah, for puberty blockers and hormones that sounds about right. Who else would know what they're talking about?

However, those same people probably don't know enough about the details of surgery.

Democrats need to stop with their worship of credentialed authority. It doesn't take much education at all to recognize that giving children and minors cross-sex hormones and puberty-suppressant drugs is incredibly destructive to the body in almost all cases. I don't need a post doctorate in endocrinology to recognize that, same as how I don't need to be a paleontologist to tell you that man didn't coexist with the T-rex.

That comparison fails because virtually no paleontologist says they did. The experts in any given field are probably going to figure it out, and if they end up having to change the consensus, the change will come internally, not forced upon them by untrained activists.

[Darthpi – Anti-Florida Activist]

Falsely implying I support secret experiments on marginalized groups is a gross personal attack for which you have no evidence and I am reporting this. Seek help.

If I recall correctly, it was you that called us a bunch of evil eugenicists?

Where did I single out any individual poster and call them a eugenicist? Trick question. I didnt.

"I didn't call one specific person a eugenicist, I broadly implied that *all* of you are eugenicists. Totally different."

[Progressive Pessimist]

Why can't the right just mind their own business when it comes to peoples' bodies?

And don't try even try and conflate vaccines to this!

[Chancellor Tanterterg]

Mr. Reactionary has been muted for 24 hours from US General in addition to any other sanctions that may or may not be imposed.

[Del Tachi]

Of course, never in history has the medical establishment been wrong about anything. We should just adhere to everything they say and not ask questions. Just listen to the experts and nod.

It is other medical experts who should be challenging the consensus, not random lay people who don't really know what they're talking about, instead relying on feelings and political views.

In that case no one without a post doctorate in endocrinology or whatever should be commenting on gender affirming care for minors.

Yeah, for puberty blockers and hormones that sounds about right. Who else would know what they're talking about?

This is an attempt to have it both ways, Harry.  You're misrepresenting the extent of agreement among practitioners and other interested experts to preemptively silence any critique of your political views.  Liberals do this all the time - selectively frame moral issues and debates in empirical terms friendly to their presupposed worldview.  Not too smart!

[Del Tachi]

I kinda think the GOP has ruined this issue for themselves. There is a genuine conversation to be had around how old someone should be to get gender re-affirming care if not surgery, but the way the GOP turns it into a culture war overpowers any genuine debate.

Expound upon this...Republicans are right on this issue but we shouldn't trust them because...they're Republicans?  Seems like a very narrow and self-interested view

And the issue at hand has not been "turned into" a culture war issue.  The way gender theory deconstructs and attempts to redefine centuries-old concepts of sex is of existential importance to the culture.  How could it not be?

If you want to have a genuine debate, I'm all here for it but it'll probably just regress into me being called a self-hating transphobe.  The toxicity in this debate originates from the affirmative side.         

[Fuzzy Bear]

Why can't the right just mind their own business when it comes to peoples' bodies?

And don't try even try and conflate vaccines to this!

You can't have that both ways.

And no one should let anyone have that both ways.

[MasterJedi]

If this is the way they want to go. Then any Christian should be banned from fertility treatment since that’s not natural either.

[Hammy]

Why can't the right just mind their own business when it comes to peoples' bodies?

And don't try even try and conflate vaccines to this!

You can't have that both ways.

And no one should let anyone have that both ways.

I don't see how this is having it both ways, with most people there's a consistency: if your actions are self-contained to your body (abortion, gender care, or even eating nonstop fast food or drinking) but if what you're doing is communicable or spread through the air (why I support vaccine mandates for instance, it gives immunocompromised people a chance--or to use an extreme example, people shouldn't have the right to sneeze on the fast food bar in a restaurant which sadly I've seen people do) then one's actions are causing unavoidable consequences for others.

As an example, I consider myself anti-smoking. I don't smoke, find it disgusting, but at the same time, don't feel the government has any business telling people what to do on the matter (inside your own home, or outdoors, you are not affecting anybody other than yourself) while supporting public indoor bans, as at that point their actions are having invasive consequences on others, as, were everybody to allow smoking indoors, those who don't would have no alternative options.

[ProgressiveModerate]

I kinda think the GOP has ruined this issue for themselves. There is a genuine conversation to be had around how old someone should be to get gender re-affirming care if not surgery, but the way the GOP turns it into a culture war overpowers any genuine debate.

Expound upon this...Republicans are right on this issue but we shouldn't trust them because...they're Republicans?  Seems like a very narrow and self-interested view

And the issue at hand has not been "turned into" a culture war issue.  The way gender theory deconstructs and attempts to redefine centuries-old concepts of sex is of existential importance to the culture.  How could it not be?

If you want to have a genuine debate, I'm all here for it but it'll probably just regress into me being called a self-hating transphobe.  The toxicity in this debate originates from the affirmative side.         

No, that's not what I'm saying, and I'm not saying you specifically are transphobic, but some key national Republicans have warped the messaging.

The reason why Republicans have turned it into a culture war is because even if you disagree a child shouldn't be allowed to have gender affirming care, that doesn't make going after the child or their families fair. For instance take the so-called "Don't say Gay Bill". There was actually quite a lot in the bill that is pretty common-sense stuff I would agree with such as not teaching sex to Elementary School Students. However at the same time, the bill purposely rolled back protections for LGBTQ kids who are already a very vulnerable group and DeSantis railed against these families as if it was somethign wrong with their lifestyle which is just wrong.

My personal view is that a child must be over 13 to even be considered to get things such as hormone therapy. In order to recieve hormone therapy, they must visit some sort of qualified doctor who will evaluate them, and they must constituently have the desire to transition for at least a year. The starting hormone dose would be low but would progressively increase by the year (as is already usually the case). No surgery until someone is over 18 at which point, they can do whatever they want with themselves.

If someone is homosexual or bisexual, there's really nothing that "needs to be done" or whatever. A gay kid changing in the locker room is very low down on the list of potential problems. It's important to have a culture where they feel accepted though as at many schools, homosexuality tends to be the brunt of the joke, even here in NYC but that's not something that can really be legislated but rather needs greater cultural change.

Finally, it's important to acknowledge there are a lot of parents out there who will not be accepting of an LGBTQ child so if a child wants to confide privately with a teacher or counselor, they should be allowed to. There are cases where the student is just not ready to reveal to their parents or if their parents found out, it would greatly alter their relationship and home life with them.

[MiddleRoad]

I'll ask again: why the hell are cons so obsessed with having control over other people's genitals

It's about keeping trans people in their place as "others" and not allowing them to feel normal or be treated as normal. Otherwise, the next thing you know, half the neighbourhood will be trans and our kids will either bring trans kids over to play or becomes trans themselves. We have to stop it before it gets out of hand!

They should be given the same compassion as every other person with mental illness is. Speaking as someone diagnosed with mental illness, that means: treat it and stop celebrating it.

If allowing adults to get HRT means it’ll stop being pushed on 5 year olds, I’d take that deal. Hell, I’d even be willing to pay for subsidized bottom surgeries for adults if it means they’d leave kids alone.
 
No one celebrates depression, anxiety disorder, BPD or body dysmorphia disorder. I do not see any push for “education” on these things to be taught to kindergarteners. No one says that if a little kid has an imaginary friend, they’re definitely schizophrenic or operating under a mental illness. There are no children’s books about other mental illnesses.

[world.execute(me)]

I'll ask again: why the hell are cons so obsessed with having control over other people's genitals

It's about keeping trans people in their place as "others" and not allowing them to feel normal or be treated as normal. Otherwise, the next thing you know, half the neighbourhood will be trans and our kids will either bring trans kids over to play or becomes trans themselves. We have to stop it before it gets out of hand!

They should be given the same compassion as every other person with mental illness is. Speaking as someone diagnosed with mental illness, that means: treat it and stop celebrating it.

If allowing adults to get HRT means it’ll stop being pushed on 5 year olds, I’d take that deal. Hell, I’d even be willing to pay for subsidized bottom surgeries for adults if it means they’d leave kids alone.
 
No one celebrates depression, anxiety disorder, BPD or body dysmorphia disorder. I do not see any push for “education” on these things to be taught to kindergarteners. No one says that if a little kid has an imaginary friend, they’re definitely schizophrenic or operating under a mental illness. There are no children’s books about other mental illnesses.

If you want to treat being trans as a mental illness, that means you have to give trans people effective treatment. And the only effective treatment for gender dysphoria is transition. And also you shouldn't stigmatize mental illness.

[MiddleRoad]

I'll ask again: why the hell are cons so obsessed with having control over other people's genitals

It's about keeping trans people in their place as "others" and not allowing them to feel normal or be treated as normal. Otherwise, the next thing you know, half the neighbourhood will be trans and our kids will either bring trans kids over to play or becomes trans themselves. We have to stop it before it gets out of hand!

They should be given the same compassion as every other person with mental illness is. Speaking as someone diagnosed with mental illness, that means: treat it and stop celebrating it.

If allowing adults to get HRT means it’ll stop being pushed on 5 year olds, I’d take that deal. Hell, I’d even be willing to pay for subsidized bottom surgeries for adults if it means they’d leave kids alone.
 
No one celebrates depression, anxiety disorder, BPD or body dysmorphia disorder. I do not see any push for “education” on these things to be taught to kindergarteners. No one says that if a little kid has an imaginary friend, they’re definitely schizophrenic or operating under a mental illness. There are no children’s books about other mental illnesses.

If you want to treat being trans as a mental illness, that means you have to give trans people effective treatment. And the only effective treatment for gender dysphoria is transition. And also you shouldn't stigmatize mental illness.

Here’s the catch 22: Your side refuses to recognize it as a mental illness…But wants treatment. And also wants to celebrate it. And teach 5 year olds about it. And encourage them to join in on it. But, you won’t say “gender affirming care is needed because….”

Can’t have it both ways.

And no, mental illness shouldn’t be stigmatized, but neither should it be celebrated.

[Hammy]

No one celebrates depression, anxiety disorder

There's a whole segment of society that prides themselves on being maliciously antisocial

[MiddleRoad]

No one celebrates depression, anxiety disorder

There's a whole segment of society that prides themselves on being antisocial

Uh, where? It’s not plastered all over social media and culture condemns antisocial people as being weird. And if you’re not for antisocial people, you’re not called a bigot either.

It’s funny. You can get in the army for being trans and believing you are the opposite sex- but have a history of anxiety, or depression? Nope.

[Hammy]

No one celebrates depression, anxiety disorder

There's a whole segment of society that prides themselves on being antisocial

Uh, where? It’s not plastered all over social media and culture condemns antisocial people as being weird. And if you’re not for antisocial people, you’re not called a bigot either.

Are you thinking of shy/introverted people? That's not antisocial--antisocial people are the antagonistic loners. Not to mention you see narcissism celebrated by half the country--look at the personality cults around people like Trump and Musk or Cuomo for example.

No one celebrates depression, anxiety disorder

There's a whole segment of society that prides themselves on being antisocial

Uh, where? It’s not plastered all over social media and culture condemns antisocial people as being weird. And if you’re not for antisocial people, you’re not called a bigot either.

It’s funny. You can get in the army for being trans and believing you are the opposite sex- but have a history of anxiety, or depression? Nope.

Well let's see...Cowardice and desertion are generally punishable by death, the actions that lead that can be triggered by, oh right, anxiety and depression!

Being trans is not in itself debilitating and is part of your identity, and most of the poor mental health outcomes stem from imposed societal norms, effectively forcing you to be somebody you're not. If for instance you forcibly transitioned somebody who isn't trans (or even so much force them to live as a separate gender), you'd get an identical mental health outcome as somebody who is trans who is living in opposition to their identity. Hell, even people who aren't trans being forced to live a life their parents choose for them can lead to the exact same situation if it isn't one they desire.

By contrast, anxiety and depression are very debilitating, and often completely independent of outside circumstances (though there can be external triggers)

If you suffer depression, that's going to lead to clouded thinking on the battlefield or strategizing, or physically unable to carry out your duties (for instance I have bipolar, during depressive episodes it feels impossible to wake in any sort of timely manner.)

If you have anxiety, you're very likely to have a panic attack in the middle of battle, which is often what leads to desertion. Not to mention, what if you're captured, you'll be easier to break. In effect you can end up inadvertently becoming a liability.

[Del Tachi]

No one celebrates depression, anxiety disorder

There's a whole segment of society that prides themselves on being maliciously antisocial

And bigger picture: the culture definitely does celebrate disorders like depression and anxiety disorder.  We increasingly insist that any kind of negative feeling or experience be considered a pathology requiring expert intervention.   

In this context, it's unsurprising that trans activists are seeking to medicalize something as personal and subjective as gender. 

[MiddleRoad]

No one celebrates depression, anxiety disorder

There's a whole segment of society that prides themselves on being antisocial

Uh, where? It’s not plastered all over social media and culture condemns antisocial people as being weird. And if you’re not for antisocial people, you’re not called a bigot either.

It’s funny. You can get in the army for being trans and believing you are the opposite sex- but have a history of anxiety, or depression? Nope.

Well let's see...Cowardice and desertion are generally punishable by death, the actions that lead that can be triggered by, oh right, anxiety and depression!

Being trans is not in itself debilitating and is part of your identity, and most of the poor mental health outcomes stem from imposed societal norms, effectively forcing you to be somebody you're not. If for instance you forcibly transitioned somebody who isn't trans (or even so much force them to live as a separate gender), you'd get an identical mental health outcome as somebody who is trans who is living in opposition to their identity. Hell, even people who aren't trans being forced to live a life their parents choose for them can lead to the exact same situation if it isn't one they desire.

By contrast, anxiety and depression are very debilitating, and often completely independent of outside circumstances (though there can be external triggers)

If you suffer depression, that's going to lead to clouded thinking on the battlefield or strategizing, or physically unable to carry out your duties (for instance I have bipolar, during depressive episodes it feels impossible to wake in any sort of timely manner.)

If you have anxiety, you're very likely to have a panic attack in the middle of battle, which is often what leads to desertion. Not to mention, what if you're captured, you'll be easier to break. In effect you can end up inadvertently becoming a liability.

And being trans has never ever been linked to suicide, depression, anxiety or doesn’t have any comorbidities with other disorders?

I think you’re an anti mental illness bigot who just has a soft spot for one mental illness, given your tone. You’re essentially saying that a person who has anxiety disorder is: Not loyal, and a coward.

[Hammy]

And being trans has never ever been linked to suicide, depression, anxiety or doesn’t have any comorbidities with other disorders?

Well yes, being ostracized by society, forced to live a life that isn't yours, and bullied does often tend to lead to things like suicide, depression, and anxiety. And this is something most trans people have experienced.

I think you’re an anti mental illness bigot who just has a soft spot for one mental illness, given your tone. You’re essentially saying that a person who has anxiety disorder is: Not loyal, and a coward.

I am speaking from personal experience, as somebody who has routine anxiety and panic attacks to the point of having waves of crippling fear, and that that were I in the military it's inevitable one of these would strike at an inconvenient time, and I'd face consequences for it. And that is why things like depression and anxiety are not allowed by the military.

And bigger picture: the culture definitely does celebrate disorders like depression and anxiety disorder.  We increasingly insist that any kind of negative feeling or experience be considered a pathology requiring expert intervention.

I will give you some credit and say I partially agree here (but not with what followed) as there's been a push to clinicalize things like grief and loss among other things, to the point of declaring them mental disorders in need of medication

[Del Tachi]

I'll ask again: why the hell are cons so obsessed with having control over other people's genitals

It's about keeping trans people in their place as "others" and not allowing them to feel normal or be treated as normal. Otherwise, the next thing you know, half the neighbourhood will be trans and our kids will either bring trans kids over to play or becomes trans themselves. We have to stop it before it gets out of hand!

They should be given the same compassion as every other person with mental illness is. Speaking as someone diagnosed with mental illness, that means: treat it and stop celebrating it.

If allowing adults to get HRT means it’ll stop being pushed on 5 year olds, I’d take that deal. Hell, I’d even be willing to pay for subsidized bottom surgeries for adults if it means they’d leave kids alone.
 
No one celebrates depression, anxiety disorder, BPD or body dysmorphia disorder. I do not see any push for “education” on these things to be taught to kindergarteners. No one says that if a little kid has an imaginary friend, they’re definitely schizophrenic or operating under a mental illness. There are no children’s books about other mental illnesses.

If you want to treat being trans as a mental illness, that means you have to give trans people effective treatment. And the only effective treatment for gender dysphoria is transition. And also you shouldn't stigmatize mental illness.

The problem for you is that evaluating gender dysphoria by the standards applied to other mental illnesses does not get you anywhere near the activist orthodoxy.  There is no other mental illness we "treat" by surgically or chemically obliterating otherwise healthy, normal human anatomy.  If gender dysphoria is a sickness of the mind, then it must be treated exactly as such.