FBI search warrant executed at Mar-a-Lago (Update: Trump Indicted!)

[OSR stands with Israel]

Fuzzy: is the warrant a forgery? Or is the FBI lying? If so, what are they lying about? Did Trump have those documents at Mar-a-Lago, having declassified them before he left office, or did the FBI plant evidence?

You should honestly not even bother. Fuzzy will never engage on any of your questions and will just run away from the thread, hope things die done then come back with a new round of talking points. It’s better to just call him out on his absurdities and leave it at that

He clearly has an attachment to Trump beyond “logic” and that doesn’t make it less valid, it just means understanding it can’t be done through a scientific lens.

It’s quite easy to understand. Fuzzy is a typical cranky old fart who’s mad the world isn’t the same as when he grew up in and Trump hurts and upsets the various groups and elements Fuzzy blames for the changes 

Fuzzy is actually pretty young in many ways :


- He uses Millennial Jargon

- His politics are way more Similar to Under 40 Republicans than Over 40.

- He is definitely less jingoistic than most boomers

Yet another ways, particularly views on social issues he's well over 100.

Pantina of using words like cringe or based doesn't keep someone from being an ancient old fart.

Wrong:

- He opposes overturning Obergefell

- He supports criminal justice reforms like reducing sentences for non violent crimes, supports felon voting etc.

[Badger]

This seems like a stretch.

They're going to put Trump in jail for ten years for possessing unclassified documents?  That doesn't pass the smell test

I'm late to the party here but let me get this straight: according to you, Trump stole a bunch of documents which legally were supposed to return to the government upon his exiting office, including numerous top secret and nuclear documents; used his psychic legal powers asserted by the Heritage Foundation to declassify these documents, without ever communicating that they were declassified; stashed them in his beach house; refused to turn them over to the government for a year and a half, breaking a law which says that keeping government documents carries a legal penalty; and finally gets them snatched back once his beach house is raided. And the part of this saga you find objectionable is that the law Trump broke did not differentiate between government documents which were and were not declassified by Trump's mind powers.

No, that's not what I'm saying.  Stop enjoying listening to yourself so much and consider this nuance:  not all documents presidents are supposed to return to NARA under the PRA would be classified.  If the Espionage Act is being used to potentially prosecute Trump for not returning these records upon "demand of an officer or employee of the United States" then that is prosecutorial overkill.

The only provision of the Espionage Act that he's actually being accused of violating merely concerns the unauthorized retention of national defense information. Just because it's called the "Espionage Act" doesn't mean that the DoJ is acting as if he transmitted state secrets to hostile nations because, flashy title aside, it's still one of its provisions that criminalizes the willful mishandling of these documents, which is still, y'know, a blatant federal crime even if/when it doesn't rise to the level of active, spy-like espionage. So if he's alleged to have not only retained & mishandled records that he was unauthorized to retain, but then willfully concealed his retention & mishandling of such documents from investigators, then where exactly is this supposed prosecutorial overkill that you speak of? What's wrong here??

Any charge under the Espionage Act is prosecutorial overkill because there is separate legislation that regulates presidential records, and Trump should be charged under that statute as he once had presidential custody over the documents in question (which is not a situation the Espionage Act was written to consider, per the legislative history of the act.)  

…

The search warrant literally cited that separate legislation, 18 USC 2071, the PRA. "Whoever, having the custody of any such record… willfully and unlawfully conceals [or] removes… the same, shall be fined… or imprisoned not more than three years, or both." You clearly seem to misunderstand how criminal investigations work, because when an investigation into potential instances of one crime, like violating the PRA, uncovers evidence of not only such violations but also of other crimes, like violating the Espionage Act & concealing the violations of both acts from investigators, then the accused will be liable for those actions too.

And yes, his alleged actions clearly fall under the purview of 18 USC 793, the section of the Espionage Act concerned, if, in undertaking those actions, he was retaining information related to the national defense that could be used to injure the U.S. or to the advantage of a foreign government without the necessary authorization to retain such information. That's a blatant violation of the provision at hand, not something that wasn't considered within the legislative history of the act, & we know that because it's been consistently prosecuted, except without the initial good-faith effort to treat the accused with a great amount of deference in light of their former job & figure all of this out cooperatively.

Watching DT put defense of a lioness into protecting Trump and making excuses for him is just so ... beyond silly.

[Badger]

Why would he resign since there is zero chance he would be convicted.

To spare Biden an Embarrassment.

I am so confused right now...

TL;DR: 2016 is trying very hard to derail the thread.  Just ignore him.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Fuzzy: is the warrant a forgery? Or is the FBI lying? If so, what are they lying about? Did Trump have those documents at Mar-a-Lago, having declassified them before he left office, or did the FBI plant evidence?

You should honestly not even bother. Fuzzy will never engage on any of your questions and will just run away from the thread, hope things die done then come back with a new round of talking points. It’s better to just call him out on his absurdities and leave it at that

He clearly has an attachment to Trump beyond “logic” and that doesn’t make it less valid, it just means understanding it can’t be done through a scientific lens.

It’s quite easy to understand. Fuzzy is a typical cranky old fart who’s mad the world isn’t the same as when he grew up in and Trump hurts and upsets the various groups and elements Fuzzy blames for the changes 

Fuzzy is actually pretty young in many ways :


- He uses Millennial Jargon

- His politics are way more Similar to Under 40 Republicans than Over 40.

- He is definitely less jingoistic than most boomers

Yet another ways, particularly views on social issues he's well over 100.

Pantina of using words like cringe or based doesn't keep someone from being an ancient old fart.

Wrong:

- He opposes overturning Obergefell

- He supports criminal justice reforms like reducing sentences for non violent crimes, supports felon voting etc.

They don't read my posts.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Fuzzy: is the warrant a forgery? Or is the FBI lying? If so, what are they lying about? Did Trump have those documents at Mar-a-Lago, having declassified them before he left office, or did the FBI plant evidence?

You should honestly not even bother. Fuzzy will never engage on any of your questions and will just run away from the thread, hope things die done then come back with a new round of talking points. It’s better to just call him out on his absurdities and leave it at that

He clearly has an attachment to Trump beyond “logic” and that doesn’t make it less valid, it just means understanding it can’t be done through a scientific lens.

It’s quite easy to understand. Fuzzy is a typical cranky old fart who’s mad the world isn’t the same as when he grew up in and Trump hurts and upsets the various groups and elements Fuzzy blames for the changes 

Fuzzy is actually pretty young in many ways :


- He uses Millennial Jargon

- His politics are way more Similar to Under 40 Republicans than Over 40.

- He is definitely less jingoistic than most boomers

Yet another ways, particularly views on social issues he's well over 100.

Pantina of using words like cringe or based doesn't keep someone from being an ancient old fart.

Wrong:

- He opposes overturning Obergefell

- He supports criminal justice reforms like reducing sentences for non violent crimes, supports felon voting etc.

They don't read my posts.

Yup they view the both of us to be "villains" and strawman the vast majority of views to fit that criteria.

My guess is that we both are supposed to be Democrats in their eyes and they cannot stand the fact that we are Republicans who do not agree with them.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Fuzzy: is the warrant a forgery? Or is the FBI lying? If so, what are they lying about? Did Trump have those documents at Mar-a-Lago, having declassified them before he left office, or did the FBI plant evidence?

You should honestly not even bother. Fuzzy will never engage on any of your questions and will just run away from the thread, hope things die done then come back with a new round of talking points. It’s better to just call him out on his absurdities and leave it at that

He clearly has an attachment to Trump beyond “logic” and that doesn’t make it less valid, it just means understanding it can’t be done through a scientific lens.

It’s quite easy to understand. Fuzzy is a typical cranky old fart who’s mad the world isn’t the same as when he grew up in and Trump hurts and upsets the various groups and elements Fuzzy blames for the changes 

Fuzzy is actually pretty young in many ways :


- He uses Millennial Jargon

- His politics are way more Similar to Under 40 Republicans than Over 40.

- He is definitely less jingoistic than most boomers

Yet another ways, particularly views on social issues he's well over 100.

Pantina of using words like cringe or based doesn't keep someone from being an ancient old fart.

Wrong:

- He opposes overturning Obergefell

- He supports criminal justice reforms like reducing sentences for non violent crimes, supports felon voting etc.

They don't read my posts.

Yup they view the both of us to be "villains" and strawman the vast majority of views to fit that criteria.

My guess is that we both are supposed to be Democrats in their eyes and they cannot stand the fact that we are Republicans who do not agree with them.

Given what they post about Republicans and the GOP they really don't have anything valid to say about Mark Levin's rants on how the Democrats are Evil.  Now I agree that some of that is "Excessive Hyperbole" as well, but these people want a one-party state.  It doesn't work that way.

[2016]

Old School Republican,
You know what struck me the most is the timing of this Search Warrant at Mar-a-Lago. Most of the sort of liberal Cable News saying the DoJ's Decision wasn't a Political One. How convinient!

BUT how can it not be when we are less than 85 Days away from the Midterms?

Do you have any thoughts on this?

I think either side will say it helped or hurt them once the Election is over.

[Penn_Quaker_Girl]

Old School Republican,
You know what struck me the most is the timing of this Search Warrant at Mar-a-Lago. Most of the sort of liberal Cable News saying the DoJ's Decision wasn't a Political One. How convinient!

BUT how can it not be when we are less than 85 Days away from the Midterms?

Do you have any thoughts on this?

I think either side will say it helped or hurt them once the Election is over.

Not OSR, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was *something* of a political move.  Or at the very least, those who ordered it aren't stupid -- even if it was completely apolitical on paper, they're not oblivious to its political implications. 

[OSR stands with Israel]

Old School Republican,
You know what struck me the most is the timing of this Search Warrant at Mar-a-Lago. Most of the sort of liberal Cable News saying the DoJ's Decision wasn't a Political One. How convinient!

BUT how can it not be when we are less than 85 Days away from the Midterms?

Do you have any thoughts on this?

I think either side will say it helped or hurt them once the Election is over.

I mean I actually think it would be reckless for DOJ not to consider the political consequences of such a decision. Going after a former president is inherently political no matter what anyone says and that's why it should not happen other than the most serious of circumstances.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

Fuzzy: is the warrant a forgery? Or is the FBI lying? If so, what are they lying about? Did Trump have those documents at Mar-a-Lago, having declassified them before he left office, or did the FBI plant evidence?

You should honestly not even bother. Fuzzy will never engage on any of your questions and will just run away from the thread, hope things die done then come back with a new round of talking points. It’s better to just call him out on his absurdities and leave it at that

He clearly has an attachment to Trump beyond “logic” and that doesn’t make it less valid, it just means understanding it can’t be done through a scientific lens.

It’s quite easy to understand. Fuzzy is a typical cranky old fart who’s mad the world isn’t the same as when he grew up in and Trump hurts and upsets the various groups and elements Fuzzy blames for the changes 

Fuzzy is actually pretty young in many ways :


- He uses Millennial Jargon

- His politics are way more Similar to Under 40 Republicans than Over 40.

- He is definitely less jingoistic than most boomers

Yet another ways, particularly views on social issues he's well over 100.

Pantina of using words like cringe or based doesn't keep someone from being an ancient old fart.

Wrong:

- He opposes overturning Obergefell

- He supports criminal justice reforms like reducing sentences for non violent crimes, supports felon voting etc.

They don't read my posts.

Hey, Fuzzy, did you read my posts? I’d love to know what you think about the unsealed warrant. Was it fake, or did the FBI plant evidence, or what? Do you think they’re lying about section 793, 2071, or 1519, or all three?

[brucejoel99]

Old School Republican,
You know what struck me the most is the timing of this Search Warrant at Mar-a-Lago. Most of the sort of liberal Cable News saying the DoJ's Decision wasn't a Political One. How convinient!

BUT how can it not be when we are less than 85 Days away from the Midterms?

Do you have any thoughts on this?

I think either side will say it helped or hurt them once the Election is over.

Not OSR, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was *something* of a political move.  Or at the very least, those who ordered it aren't stupid -- even if it was completely apolitical on paper, they're not oblivious to its political implications. 

And in any event, my question pertaining to this for 2016 is honestly "so what?" The DoJ's practice is to issue no comment about politically sensitive investigations only within 60 days of an election, so unless the ISO has recently ruled that 85 is now less than 60, the DoJ is well within their rights to conduct a politically sensitive investigation at this time because, of course, they're well within their rights to conduct a politically sensitive investigation at any & all times, regardless of whether or not they necessarily feel comfortable issuing public comments re: such investigations at certain points in time.

[Fuzzy Bear]

Given what they post about Republicans and the GOP they really don't have anything valid to say about Mark Levin's rants on how the Democrats are Evil.  Now I agree that some of that is "Excessive Hyperbole" as well, but these people want a one-party state.  It doesn't work that way.

Wisconsin is so gerrymandered but Republicans that the Democrats can’t win a majority without a 20 point majority. Millions of people have no say in their state laws because of the Wisconsin Republicans. Your party is attacking Americans and making us go from “I might vote for them depending on my circumstances” to viewing you as terrifying abusive people.

I do want you to never hold powers. It’s because I think you’re Wahabbists who want to take the vote away.

Do you have ANYTHING you can say in response to that example of anti-democratic values and what I am supposed to think about it except that you are a foot soldier of people who want to take my rights away?

Yes, I do have some things to say.  One is:  "Get a grip!".  The other is:  "Seek help!".

If you really believe this about me, then you need help, either to get you to see people who disagree with you as something other than your enemy, or to recognize your exaggerated sense of what you are entitled to from the Government and from other people, including people you disagree with.

Your last post is unhinged.  

[Ferguson97]

I mean I actually think it would be reckless for DOJ not to consider the political consequences of such a decision. Going after a former president is inherently political no matter what anyone says and that's why it should not happen other than the most serious of circumstances.

I do not agree with your belief that the President should be above the law except under extreme circumstances.

[2016]

Old School Republican,
You know what struck me the most is the timing of this Search Warrant at Mar-a-Lago. Most of the sort of liberal Cable News saying the DoJ's Decision wasn't a Political One. How convinient!

BUT how can it not be when we are less than 85 Days away from the Midterms?

Do you have any thoughts on this?

I think either side will say it helped or hurt them once the Election is over.

Not OSR, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was *something* of a political move.  Or at the very least, those who ordered it aren't stupid -- even if it was completely apolitical on paper, they're not oblivious to its political implications. 

I trend to agree with you! For the next basically 3 Months Trump will be in the News. That helps Democrats more then it helps Republicans.

Democrats can run against Trump and most of their failures during the last 2 years take a back Seat.

[2016]

I mean I actually think it would be reckless for DOJ not to consider the political consequences of such a decision. Going after a former president is inherently political no matter what anyone says and that's why it should not happen other than the most serious of circumstances.

I do not agree with your belief that the President should be above the law except under extreme circumstances.

Did OSR say Trump is above the law? No he did not. Stop twisting his words.

What the 3 of us (OSR, Fuzzy Bear and myself) are saying that the timing is highly suspicious!

[DaleCooper]

Worship a better false god, please. You can do a lot better than that fat, adulterous pig Donald Trump.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

I mean I actually think it would be reckless for DOJ not to consider the political consequences of such a decision. Going after a former president is inherently political no matter what anyone says and that's why it should not happen other than the most serious of circumstances.

I do not agree with your belief that the President should be above the law except under extreme circumstances.

Did OSR say Trump is above the law? No he did not. Stop twisting his words.

What the 3 of us (OSR, Fuzzy Bear and myself) are saying that the timing is highly suspicious!

What would be a non-suspicious timing? Why should the DoJ change its procedures to placate one political party?

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/ZTPetrizzo/status/1558863971276447744

[OSR stands with Israel]

I mean I actually think it would be reckless for DOJ not to consider the political consequences of such a decision. Going after a former president is inherently political no matter what anyone says and that's why it should not happen other than the most serious of circumstances.

I do not agree with your belief that the President should be above the law except under extreme circumstances.

The real world isn’t a high school civics class and the fact is it also would result in many many other members of previous administrations being potentially prosecuted given that technically our foreign policy since 1945 probably has resulted in laws being broken by multiple administrators.

Like I said I don’t think Eisenhower or Nixon should have been prosecuted for Their use of the CIA , LBJ for Gulf of Tonkin lie , Reagan/Bush for Iran Contra , W for Guantanamo Bay , Obama for how he used drones etc .

[2016]

I mean I actually think it would be reckless for DOJ not to consider the political consequences of such a decision. Going after a former president is inherently political no matter what anyone says and that's why it should not happen other than the most serious of circumstances.

I do not agree with your belief that the President should be above the law except under extreme circumstances.

Did OSR say Trump is above the law? No he did not. Stop twisting his words.

What the 3 of us (OSR, Fuzzy Bear and myself) are saying that the timing is highly suspicious!

What would be a non-suspicious timing? Why should the DoJ change its procedures to placate one political party?

Non-Suspicious timing: Earlier this year! Late last year!

Republicans already saying this will be a drip, drip, drip thing to confuse Voters so they vote Democrat and Dems keep the House & Senate.

If the DoJ convicts Trump I hope it will be before he announces for President and before he wins any of the 2024 Contests.

[YPestis25]

Come on. If the raid had been conducted late last year, there would have been other excuses brought up. And in any event, it appears that the raid was only this late because of Trump's delay in handing over the documents.

[Hindsight was 2020]

Like Fuzzy when you guys realize that 2016 argues in bad faith and isn’t worth the effort it will save time

[Middle-aged Europe]

I mean I actually think it would be reckless for DOJ not to consider the political consequences of such a decision. Going after a former president is inherently political no matter what anyone says and that's why it should not happen other than the most serious of circumstances.

I do not agree with your belief that the President should be above the law except under extreme circumstances.

The real world isn’t a high school civics class and the fact is it also would result in many many other members of previous administrations being potentially prosecuted given that technically our foreign policy since 1945 probably has resulted in laws being broken by multiple administrators.

Like I said I don’t think Eisenhower or Nixon should have been prosecuted for Their use of the CIA , LBJ for Gulf of Tonkin lie , Reagan/Bush for Iran Contra , W for Guantanamo Bay , Obama for how he used drones etc .

I for one am hoping for a "real world" that is still subject to the rule of law though.

[Middle-aged Europe]

Like Fuzzy when you guys realize that 2016 argues in bad faith and isn’t worth the effort it will save time

Unlike Fuzzy, 2016 amuses me.

[OSR stands with Israel]

I mean I actually think it would be reckless for DOJ not to consider the political consequences of such a decision. Going after a former president is inherently political no matter what anyone says and that's why it should not happen other than the most serious of circumstances.

I do not agree with your belief that the President should be above the law except under extreme circumstances.

The real world isn’t a high school civics class and the fact is it also would result in many many other members of previous administrations being potentially prosecuted given that technically our foreign policy since 1945 probably has resulted in laws being broken by multiple administrators.

Like I said I don’t think Eisenhower or Nixon should have been prosecuted for Their use of the CIA , LBJ for Gulf of Tonkin lie , Reagan/Bush for Iran Contra , W for Guantanamo Bay , Obama for how he used drones etc .

I for one am hoping for a "real world" that is still subject to the rule of law though.

Like I said Trump having nuclear documents is a different story than if they were other ones .