AOC criticizes Democrats for railing against “Latinx”

[VBM]

One thing I don’t get about Latinx is why do people say it’s about trans rights? I thought the point of Latinx was to not have “Latino” as the default in cases where the gender is unclear or there is a mixed group of people, which is considered sexist since having the “o” ending as the default implies male superiority over females

[MT Treasurer]

Most people who use these terms and engage in these linguistic contortions do not do so out of genuine empathy and a desire to understand certain groups but with the mere intention to project their own perceived (non-existent) moral superiority and force their (wholly superficial) image as good Samaritans upon others. There is no substance or depth to it, which is why it will never matter whether it’s "Latinx" or "Latine" or "Latinae."

...Which is also why it is no surprise that this is the same woman whose entire criticism of the leaked photos of her vacationing in FL while advocating draconian COVID restrictions in her own state of NY amounted to a snarky reference to her critics' alleged "sexual frustrations" that accomplished nothing other than winning her hearts and likes from her usual diehard followers on social media. She’s a transparent fraud and a poster child for why the vast majority of today's activist/perpetually online Twitter left has lost this much credibility with the American electorate.

[Edu]

These sort of threads on Atlas always bring some funny stuff, looking forward to 4 or 5 more pages

[Thank you for being a friend...]

I've never heard the word "Latinx" spoken in actual real life... it seems to be a "print word", something used in print.

"LGBTQ" is not an easy thing to say in real life either, it's a print word as well, to be inclusive of others.... to just say it in an everyday conversation, it doesn't roll naturally off my tongue but thats just me.

We don't really have the words needed to include everybody, and I'm very progressive but I'll even use words like "mailman" or "fireman".

Political correctness is annoying, everyone's going to slip up and say a word that offends someone, even the most "woke" person... so I don't think it's important to focus on these words.

[jamestroll]

Its not going to make or break the midterms.

My feeling is that the usage of Latinx is trying to solve an issue that does not even exist. Doesn't even sound like an actual word in Spanish or English.

Yes, I do DEMAND that anyone migrating to the United States learns English.

[7,052,770]

As a white person, I can't really tell her what to call her own group of people. But I do think she shouldn't brush off "winning re-election" as a party priority, since 2023 and 2024 will be far better for America and for her progressive political goals if Democrats hold both houses of Congress rather than losing them.

[Hammy]

So she supports “Latine”.  

I actually think that’s a great solution!
It’s such a better solution on every dimension that it’s existence makes the attacks against “Latinx” much stronger.

The problem with Latine is that

A. It still isn't an actual Spanish word

B. It sounds like a racial slur (Wh*tey, D*rkie)

A. Latine originates from actual Spanish-speaking countries and seems to be the preferred term among Hispanics.

B. Only if you have literally zero grasp on how Spanish is pronounced

When has this ever been the case? The gender-neutral word for Latino has always been Latino. And like other non-gendered nouns in Spanish, it follows the same grammar rules as masculine nouns do.

Also, nouns ending in -e are almost always masculine.

Hasn't polling shown that "Hispanic" is actually the preferred term of self-identification for a plurality (if not a majority) of people with South/Latin American heritage? Which is also conveniently gender-neutral to stymie this debate?

"Hispanic" only refers to people from Spanish-speaking countries. That is why Spaniards are called Hispanic but Brazilians are not.

I should've specified, it's the preferred non-binary term and doesn't seem to generate the kind of controversy with the Hispanic community that Latinx does.

https://elcentro.colostate.edu/about/why-latinx/

Latine is also a gender-neutral form of the word Latino, created by gender non-binary and feminist communities in Spanish-speaking countries. The objective of the term is also to remove gender from Spanish, by replacing it with the gender-neutral Spanish letter E, which can already be found in words like estudiante. 

From an article that goes into the terms and discourse

[jamestroll]

THE ONLY PEOPLE BESIDES AOC WHO USE THE TERM LATINX ARE WOKE WHITE PEOPLE .

ACTUAL LATINOS NEVER USE THAT TERM

[jamestroll]

Most people who use these terms and engage in these linguistic contortions do not do so out of genuine empathy and a desire to understand certain groups but with the mere intention to project their own perceived (non-existent) moral superiority and force their (wholly superficial) image as good Samaritans upon others. There is no substance or depth to it, which is why it will never matter whether it’s "Latinx" or "Latine" or "Latinae."

...Which is also why it is no surprise that this is the same woman whose entire criticism of the leaked photos of her vacationing in FL while advocating draconian COVID restrictions in her own state of NY amounted to a snarky reference to her critics' alleged "sexual frustrations" that accomplished nothing other than winning her hearts and likes from her usual diehard followers on social media. She’s a transparent fraud and a poster child for why the vast majority of today's activist/perpetually online Twitter left has lost this much credibility with the American electorate.

One of the cruelest ironies of the Trump presidency was that in his last year of office, the online Twitter left had a TREMENDOUS amount of power over policy and society.

Literal neckbeards in basements had more power than policy makers and mainstream society.

This was also the only time of their lives that they had all this power.

Trumps biggest failure was not shutting them all down in summer 2020.

[7,052,770]

THE ONLY PEOPLE BESIDES AOC WHO USE THE TERM LATINX ARE WOKE WHITE PEOPLE .

ACTUAL LATINOS NEVER USE THAT TERM

She is an "actual Latino" though.

[jamestroll]

THE ONLY PEOPLE BESIDES AOC WHO USE THE TERM LATINX ARE WOKE WHITE PEOPLE .

ACTUAL LATINOS NEVER USE THAT TERM

She is an "actual Latino" though.

She is one exception.

Stop using that ing term or i will become crazy

[Morning in Atlas]

THE ONLY PEOPLE BESIDES AOC WHO USE THE TERM LATINX ARE WOKE WHITE PEOPLE .

ACTUAL LATINOS NEVER USE THAT TERM

Trust him on this one. This man knows his Latinos.

[T'Chenka]

AOC: if you lose election to Latinx, you should have spent more time talking about healthcare.
Also AOC: I am going to waste time discussing "Latinx" instead of discussing healthcare

I mean, she "wasted" a whole 30 to 60 seconds tweeting this. To imply that she needed to spend that 60 seconds on healthcare messaging is silly.

It was a newsworthy/viral video that is now associated with her image/brand. The fewer of these distractions she has, the more she can be associated with single-payer. Instead, she churns out this BS and is associated with the BS.

I think my comment and your rebuttal point are both 100% valid. She isn't literally wasting her time on it. Mismanaging her brand with it, yeah.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

One thing I don’t get about Latinx is why do people say it’s about trans rights? I thought the point of Latinx was to not have “Latino” as the default in cases where the gender is unclear or there is a mixed group of people, which is considered sexist since having the “o” ending as the default implies male superiority over females

Which for the record isn't even the origin of it, it's because Latin had three gendered tenses, male, female and gender neutral, but the gender neutral and male pronunciations ended up merging over time in most derived languages because they were more similar. There do exists languages where the female noun is the default, like Welsh and Swedish.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

THE ONLY PEOPLE BESIDES AOC WHO USE THE TERM LATINX ARE WOKE WHITE PEOPLE .

ACTUAL LATINOS NEVER USE THAT TERM

She is an "actual Latino" though.

She is one exception.

Stop using that ing term or i will become crazy

C'mon now LATINX

[WD]

So she supports “Latine”.  

I actually think that’s a great solution!
It’s such a better solution on every dimension that it’s existence makes the attacks against “Latinx” much stronger.

The problem with Latine is that

A. It still isn't an actual Spanish word

B. It sounds like a racial slur (Wh*tey, D*rkie)

okay whitey

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

Okay, so that's at least two actual Hispanic/Latin American people, AOC and our very own kaoras, who like the term. Probably there are more out there, but, well, we work with the data points we have, not the data points we might want or wish to have.

[Mercenary]

The vast majority of people who use this nonword are white liberals who like to pretend they ate so enlightened but dont know anything about anything when it comes to the actual lives of the people they claim to be the defenders of.

Language is fluid sure, but not really so much in this way. And gender isnt really fluid at all. Some people may see themselves as something different than what they are but that has nothing to do with gender, that has only to do with how they see themselves. They shouldnt call it gender, it ahould just be called self identity.

[Okay, maybe Mike Johnson is a competent parliamentarian.]

And gender isnt really fluid at all. Some people may see themselves as something different than what they are but that has nothing to do with gender, that has only to do with how they see themselves. They shouldnt call it gender, it ahould just be called self identity.

I don't really think insisting that everyone has to accept this framing is any less of a navel-gazing language game than insisting the inverse.

[ingemann]

One thing I don’t get about Latinx is why do people say it’s about trans rights? I thought the point of Latinx was to not have “Latino” as the default in cases where the gender is unclear or there is a mixed group of people, which is considered sexist since having the “o” ending as the default implies male superiority over females

Which for the record isn't even the origin of it, it's because Latin had three gendered tenses, male, female and gender neutral, but the gender neutral and male pronunciations ended up merging over time in most derived languages because they were more similar. There do exists languages where the female noun is the default, like Welsh and Swedish.

Pretty sure that Swedish use common/neuter gender like Danish.

[parochial boy]

German has a neutral gender, but also has a very intense and emotional ongoing debate about gender inclusive language. Because the problem is that it also uses a generic masuculin. This is something different from declinaisons, which aren't at all the problem the formulations like "Latinx", "enseignant-e-s" or "lehrer/in" are trying to resolve.

Which isn't to say that declinaisons aren't a controversial topic because of how arbitrary/complicated/sexist they can be. But that's generally not what something like "Latinx" is a response to and nor is it a response to people having a problem with grammatical gender in itself.

The problem with the generic masculin is that it assumes that someone is male. Which is the case in languages that have a neutral gender, because it is specifically dealing with groups of peeople. That is a group or one mand and 60 women will be gendered as male because the male "overrides" the female; or a job will be described using the male form because when a gender is indeterminate or unknown then it is assumed to be male. Which is something that is perceived to be sexist and something that does have a concrete and practical impact (to put on example in, women are more likely to apply for - and be hired - for a job that was advertised using inclusive language than one using a generic masculin).

[Xing]

This is dumb, but I really don't think a significant number of Latinos who would've otherwise voted Democratic are going to vote Republican because of this.

     This specific point is not going to really change voters' minds, but it points to the reality that Democrats now are very out of touch with the concerns of the Latino community. Now does that mean Republicans are in touch with them? Probably not, but it will make it much harder for Democrats to retain their hold on the Latino vote long-term.

Yes, Democrats as a whole are not particularly in touch with Latino voters, but as you said, neither are Republicans. I don’t think Republicans are going to make further gains (outside of good years for their party) without some form of change to their party/candidates.

[kaoras]

Oh, I was summoned here. But I'm tired of arguing the same over and over again. I'm just gonna say that polling in South American countries has shown that among the minority that uses lenguaje inclusivo latinx is preferred over latine for reasons that I have already explained (because, for all you people here talk about the sancticity of Spanish language none of you seem to understand how it actually works)


For the rest of the thread, I will just refer to this statement found on my hometown:

[kaoras]

Okay, so that's at least two actual Hispanic/Latin American people, AOC and our very own kaoras, who like the term. Probably there are more out there, but, well, we work with the data points we have, not the data points we might want or wish to have.

I don't actually use the term, but Atlas is so idiotic on its hatred of it that it has made me go from negative to neutral feelings to the lenguaje inclusivo I find every day in different situations  

[SInNYC]

For those who actually read what she said, she is criticizing those Ds who spend all their effort attributing D losses to the latinx stuff.

I'm all for criticizing Ds who substitute their lack of interest in real policies the party claims to care about and prefer to just sit in the peanut gallery heckling about terms and words. I would say the same whether that heckler is on the left or right of the party.