French political discussion megathread: Yellow Vest Redux

[super6646]

Macron killing any future in politics to ultimately do the right thing in the long run…

Tough call

[Kahane's Grave Is A Gender-Neutral Bathroom]

From Hong Kong media:

[LAKISYLVANIA]

So to get that out of the way...

Clearly a right winger.

[Oryxslayer]

So to get that out of the way...

Clearly a right winger.

Does that poll have a subsample for recalled R1 voters for him or REM? Cause that's always important in these sort of things, and especially in two-round runoff. Like I honestly wouldn't be surprised if those voters are majority centrist and its the opponents going right. Every voter (or here respondent) is judging things from their own perspective and perceptions and its not that hard to imagine the dominant perception being "sole pillar of normalcy with extremism to the left and the right." AKA the mirror of a extremist parties voters who see themselves as a fine and correct choice given the options and situation, but everyone else views them as beyond the bounds of decency.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

So to get that out of the way...

Clearly a right winger.

Does that poll have a subsample for recalled R1 voters for him or REM? Cause that's always important in these sort of things, and especially in two-round runoff. Like I honestly wouldn't be surprised if those voters are majority centrist and its the opponents going right. Every voter (or here respondent) is judging things from their own perspective and perceptions and its not that hard to imagine the dominant perception being "sole pillar of normalcy with extremism to the left and the right." AKA the mirror of a extremist parties voters who see themselves as a fine and correct choice given the options and situation, but everyone else views them as beyond the bounds of decency.

Source: https://elabe.fr/macron-1-an-reelection/



You have a point yes, it's true to some extent what you say.

But the boards like in 2017 isn't dominantly right wing and used to big fans of Macron even up to today for some, although less so than it used to be.

A gauche: Left-wing
Au centre: Center
A droite: Right-wing

Ironically more people from LREM and LR consider him centrist, while for RN (Le Pen) it's more split between center and right wing, probably because some hold economically left wing views.

[Antonio the Sixth]

The interesting thing is that Macron's 2022 first-round electorate overlaps pretty clearly with the electorates of Fillon and Sarkozy. That wasn't the case in 2017 when Macron's base of support was more left-leaning.

[Logical]

I want to talk with the 11-12% of Frenchmen who consistently believes that Macron is left wing.

[Oryxslayer]

I want to talk with the 11-12% of Frenchmen who consistently believes that Macron is left wing.

The groups with the highest share who responded that way are Zemmourites and the remaining LR diehards.  Which makes sense if you put yourself in their shoes and analyze their perceptions. From their position,  they have a image of what a "right" politician is in their head, and that person is not Macron - in fact that person quite clearly draws distinctions with him. The perfect is essentially the enemy of the good, with it not mattering how much Macron speaks their language. He doesn't do a few things in manners these arch-conservatives desire and those get magnified into distinguishing wedges between these voter's imagined "right" and Macron's "right."

[CumbrianLefty]

Its notable also that said figure hasn't changed much since 2017.

[rc18]

I want to talk with the 11-12% of Frenchmen who consistently believes that Macron is left wing.

The groups with the highest share who responded that way are Zemmourites and the remaining LR diehards.  Which makes sense if you put yourself in their shoes and analyze their perceptions. From their position,  they have a image of what a "right" politician is in their head, and that person is not Macron - in fact that person quite clearly draws distinctions with him. The perfect is essentially the enemy of the good, with it not mattering how much Macron speaks their language. He doesn't do a few things in manners these arch-conservatives desire and those get magnified into distinguishing wedges between these voter's imagined "right" and Macron's "right."

Macron is a Liberal, Zemmour etc are Conservatives. Despite the fact Liberals (particularly economic) and Conservatives usually both get lumped into the term "right wing" by their opponents, they are two very different ideologies.

And it isn't just Liberals and Conservatives; In what way does it make sense to call Macron right wing for being an economic liberal, but then call Le Pen for example "far right", when they are in some ways virtually opposites?

It has nothing to do with this pop psychology, it is just left and right wing aren't particularly useful terms, especially right wing as it lumps together a number of strands of ideology that are almost diametrically opposed. If you are a conservative or nationalist and view yourself as right wing, Macron will look like your political opposite.

So this poll isn't particularly interesting, all it shows is that the largest number subscribe to the idea economically liberal = right wing, a smaller number recognise it as different to right wing conservatives and nationalists and call it centrist (again this is a category error, but hey ho), and what is left of French Conservatives are more likely to view Macronian Liberalism as left wing. None of these views is really any more incorrect than the others.

[Zinneke]

Macron's views are not liberal. Macron's views as that the nerdy kid at the front of the class who does well should be successful. Liberals may also believe this, but Macronistas don't believe in a host of liberal values. Macronistas believe in a warped extreme centrism narrative where individual rights are actually trampled upon. But a sort of "internal raison d'état of self-preservation of the French Republic as a concept is bigger than individual rights" isn't the reason for it (unlike with the UMP/PS machine). The Macronista believes these individuals were bottom of the class for xyz reason so they deserve it! there is basically a view that elite formation should be meritocratic but once that elite is formed it has boundless rights. A conservative/Gaullist in France justifies the police beating protestors by insisting it is to preserve the Leviathan : the people themselves are not wrong but they must fit into the straightjacket regardless. Macron genuinely just thinks anybody who is against him is of a moral lower standing and lack the value of a Jupiterian President like him.

He is a dangerous figure.

[NewYorkExpress]

Nicolas Sarkozy has lost his appeal on his corruption conviction...however, he will not see the inside of a prison.

Former French President Nicolas Sarkozy has lost his appeal against a 2021 corruption and influence-peddling conviction.

On Wednesday, the Paris Court of Appeals upheld a three-year prison sentence against Sarkozy, but it ruled that two years would be suspended and Sarkozy would wear an electronic bracelet instead of going to jail for the remaining year.


His lawyers said they would appeal the decision before the Court of Cassation, France’s highest appeals court.

[NewYorkExpress]

France is banning domestic flights that can be completed in two and a half hours by train.

A ban on short domestic flights for journeys that can be completed in two-and-a-half hours by train was signed into law in France on Tuesday.

Clement Beaune, France’s transport minister, heralded the decree.

“This is an essential step and a strong symbol in the policy of reducing greenhouse gas emissions,” Beaune said in a statement.

“As we fight relentlessly to decarbonize our lifestyles, how can we justify the use of the plane between the big cities which benefit from regular, fast and efficient connections by train,” he added.

Only three routes have been discontinued: those linking Paris-Orly airport to the cities of Bordeaux, Nantes and Lyon. Connecting flights will be unaffected.

For the ban to apply, the EU insisted the air route in question must have a high-speed rail alternative that makes it possible to travel between the two cities in less than two-and-a-half hours. There must also be enough early and late-running trains to enable travelers to spend at least eight hours at the destination.

Some have criticized French President Emmanuel Macron for watering down proposals from his own environmental panel, which had recommended a ban on flights where a train journey would take fewer than four hours.

[NewYorkExpress]

Police have raided the headquarters of the 2024 Paris Olympics in an investigation into the awarding of public contracts.

French financial police Tuesday morning searched the headquarters of the Paris 2024 Olympics as part of an investigation into the awarding of public contracts.

In an internal email to staff seen by POLITICO, the organizing committee said searches were carried out by “teams from the criminal police and the public prosecutor” who are “collecting documents.”

The prospect of potential corruption involving contracts could deliver a reputational knock to French President Emmanuel Macron, who has stressed to his ministers the importance of a successful Paris Olympics, which were awarded to the French capital in July 2017, a few months after he was first elected.

....

Contacted by POLITICO, the French financial prosecutor (PNF) confirmed raids were taking place in “several locations,” including at the headquarters of the Paris 2024 Olympics Committee as well as those of Solideo, the public body in charge of the Paris Olympics’ construction sites.

The raids are part of two “preliminary investigations” over suspicions of misappropriation of public funds and favoritism regarding several public contracts awarded by both Solideo and the Paris 2024 Olympics Committee.

...

The headquarters of several private companies who have been awarded public contracts were also being searched on Tuesday, the PNF said.

[PSOL]

Macron's views are not liberal. Macron's views as that the nerdy kid at the front of the class who does well should be successful. Liberals may also believe this, but Macronistas don't believe in a host of liberal values. Macronistas believe in a warped extreme centrism narrative where individual rights are actually trampled upon. But a sort of "internal raison d'état of self-preservation of the French Republic as a concept is bigger than individual rights" isn't the reason for it (unlike with the UMP/PS machine). The Macronista believes these individuals were bottom of the class for xyz reason so they deserve it! there is basically a view that elite formation should be meritocratic but once that elite is formed it has boundless rights. A conservative/Gaullist in France justifies the police beating protestors by insisting it is to preserve the Leviathan : the people themselves are not wrong but they must fit into the straightjacket regardless. Macron genuinely just thinks anybody who is against him is of a moral lower standing and lack the value of a Jupiterian President like him.

He is a dangerous figure.

You have to give props on the honesty of his rhetoric

[Zinneke]

Riots in France over shooting of a 17 year old by police.

Macron and Darmamin for once took the side of the victim and said it was unacceptable? Result? the police unions are pissed at them, and I wouldn't be surprised if they took a step back and let the rioters harm the President's image. Its how those guys operate.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Riots in France over shooting of a 17 year old by police.

Isn't that almost exactly the same as what happened in Iran?

[President Johnson]

Violent riots are always the wrong approach and lead to nothing other than more innocent people or their property getting hurt. What happened is a tragedy and disgrace, but two wrongs don't make a right. Protests should always be peaceful, otherwise it's no protest.

[MaxQue]

Violent riots are always the wrong approach and lead to nothing other than more innocent people or their property getting hurt. What happened is a tragedy and disgrace, but two wrongs don't make a right. Protests should always be peaceful, otherwise it's no protest.

It's France. There will be inflitrated cops in every protest to make sure it goes violent.

[windjammer]

Honestly I don't see how France doesn't end up into some kind of civil war. It's clearly being divided into three camps who hate each others. It's already a banana republic given Macron passes important laws by decrees anyway but things are going to deteriorate.

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Violent riots are always the wrong approach and lead to nothing other than more innocent people or their property getting hurt. What happened is a tragedy and disgrace, but two wrongs don't make a right. Protests should always be peaceful, otherwise it's no protest.

i'm sure you would be the type of person who would chant: "all lives matter" during the BLM protests.

Secondly, i believe in protests, riots and revolution. If you don't than you would simply have obeyed the nazis if you were alive 80 years ago.

I at least would fight, even if that led me to being incarcerated in a concentration camp. My question to you: "what side are you on!".

It's essential to safeguard and protect a democracy.

[Comrade Funk]

Violent riots are always the wrong approach and lead to nothing other than more innocent people or their property getting hurt. What happened is a tragedy and disgrace, but two wrongs don't make a right. Protests should always be peaceful, otherwise it's no protest.

That's not how things work in the real world

[LAKISYLVANIA]

Have the protests worsened this night. Or was it already like this yesterday and 2 days ago (when i didn't check twitter).

https://twitter.com/SpriterTeam/status/1674553270084198402

I guess given that weekend is coming and that school is over and vacation starting that this will add some more momentum to the riots or at least the keep riots ongoing until after the weekend.

[PSOL]

Violent riots are always the wrong approach and lead to nothing other than more innocent people or their property getting hurt. What happened is a tragedy and disgrace, but two wrongs don't make a right. Protests should always be peaceful, otherwise it's no protest.

That's not how things work in the real world

[Zinneke]

Yes , looting Nike and Zara stores and vandalizing Samuel Paty *'s plaque shows these guys are intellectual revolutionaries, of course.


* I would wager many of these rioters set off fireworks when Paty was beheaded, but not in protest.