Ron DeSantis signs bill to limit tenure at public universities

[Fuzzy Bear]

Conservatives have been attacking universities for decades, what else is new?

And no surprise that the usual suspects think this is a good move.

This boils down to the fact that right-wingers are just terrified of dissent. That's why they hate universities so much, because it gives their children the opportunity to think for themselves instead of just parroting back what mom and dad have taught them.

No but there should be less grants given out for non hard science research

Frankly, nonsense like this is why there are so many problems with our society. Do you sincerely believe that social sciences and the arts don't produce anything of societal value?

If the social sciences departments were comprised of a truly diverse group of people with a wide spectrum of perspectives, then, yes, that would be the case.  That's not what the Social Sciences in our universities is about today; it's about people with various leftist perspectives performing research to justify their own viewpoints with data, while demonizing opposing conculsions. 

Imagine the flak a Social Sciences Professor would receive for producing research that shows clearly that the Traditional Nuclear Family produces (unquestionably) better outcomes for children, both in childhood and throughout life.  Imagine the criticism a professor would receive if they questioned the wisdom of out-of-wedlock births, easy divorce, etc. by showing outcome data, and by pointing out that the paradigm of our society has shifted from a focus on the well-being of children to a focus of the happiness and personal choices of adults.  How would they be received?

That was Barbara Dafoe Whitehead in the 1990s.  Now imagine a Social Sciences professor doing longitudinal research and finding out the results of the outcomes of children growing up in not just single parent households, but in gay/lesbian households, trans households, etc.  Just what would be the response to data which showed the outcomes of children raised in such homes to be less optimal than children raised in two-parent biological families.  Would this research be received well, or would the research be suppressed, the researcher systematically discredited?  Which would happen in today's environment?

Now I don't know what honest longitudinal research into a topic like this would show.  What I do know is that much of academia is not prepared to be open-minded into all sorts of assertions as to what social norms should be.  Let's not pretend that Social Science departments of universities are stocked with open-minded objective researchers. 

[Fuzzy Bear]

Conservatives have been attacking universities for decades, what else is new?

And no surprise that the usual suspects think this is a good move.

This boils down to the fact that right-wingers are just terrified of dissent. That's why they hate universities so much, because it gives their children the opportunity to think for themselves instead of just parroting back what mom and dad have taught them.

No but there should be less grants given out for non hard science research

Frankly, nonsense like this is why there are so many problems with our society. Do you sincerely believe that social sciences and the arts don't produce anything of societal value?

If the social sciences departments were comprised of a truly diverse group of people with a wide spectrum of perspectives, then, yes, that would be the case.  That's not what the Social Sciences in our universities is about today; it's about people with various leftist perspectives performing research to justify their own viewpoints with data, while demonizing opposing conculsions. 

Imagine the flak a Social Sciences Professor would receive for producing research that shows clearly that the Traditional Nuclear Family produces (unquestionably) better outcomes for children, both in childhood and throughout life.  Imagine the criticism a professor would receive if they questioned the wisdom of out-of-wedlock births, easy divorce, etc. by showing outcome data, and by pointing out that the paradigm of our society has shifted from a focus on the well-being of children to a focus of the happiness and personal choices of adults.  How would they be received?

That was Barbara Dafoe Whitehead in the 1990s.  Now imagine a Social Sciences professor doing longitudinal research and finding out the results of the outcomes of children growing up in not just single parent households, but in gay/lesbian households, trans households, etc.  Just what would be the response to data which showed the outcomes of children raised in such homes to be less optimal than children raised in two-parent biological families.  Would this research be received well, or would the research be suppressed, the researcher systematically discredited?  Which would happen in today's environment?

Now I don't know what honest longitudinal research into a topic like this would show.  What I do know is that much of academia is not prepared to be open-minded into all sorts of assertions as to what social norms should be.  Let's not pretend that Social Science departments of universities are stocked with open-minded objective researchers. 

So certain questions are to be forbidden because of an unactualized fear that a single question will be forbidden?

There is not any true "academic freedom" on campus nowadays.  I'm old enough to recall when academic freedom was a liberal issue, but that was before all the 1960s radicals grew old as Senior Faculty in almost all of our universities.  The 1960s radicals because the college Presidents; now, they're retiring and their leading graduates are taking their places.  Higher Education has been radicalized from top to bottom; it has happened before our very eyes, and it has happened even as the nation became more Republican.

What does it say to the state of colleges and universities when conservative lecturers are shouted down routinely to the point where their even being given a platform on campus is cause for discord and disturbance?  Certainly, it says something for the college administrators and faculty that are OK with this.  Academic Freedom has been replaced by Leftist Conformity, and in a way that is almost prison-like.  Students not only have to conform to the Leftist leaning of professors for grades, they hve to conform to the leftist leanings of their fellow students to not be ostracized.  The "Convict Code" on campus.  DeSantis's bill is long overdue, and so is the assessment of the societal value we receive for the immense investment in Higher Education our society makes.

[Fuzzy Bear]

If the social sciences departments were comprised of a truly diverse group of people with a wide spectrum of perspectives, then, yes, that would be the case.  That's not what the Social Sciences in our universities is about today; it's about people with various leftist perspectives performing research to justify their own viewpoints with data, while demonizing opposing conclusions.

If the biology departments were comprised of a truly diverse group of people with a wide spectrum of perspectives, then there would be more doctors out there who believe in healing crystals and essential oils.

Now imagine a Social Sciences professor doing longitudinal research and finding out the results of the outcomes of children growing up in not just single parent households, but in gay/lesbian households, trans households, etc.  Just what would be the response to data which showed the outcomes of children raised in such homes to be less optimal than children raised in two-parent biological families.  Would this research be received well, or would the research be suppressed, the researcher systematically discredited?  Which would happen in today's environment?

Thanks, it's a lot easier when you guys just straight-up admit the truth like this: you're using your imagined oppression as an excuse to actually oppress people.

Now I don't know what honest longitudinal research into a topic like this would show.  What I do know is that much of academia is not prepared to be open-minded into all sorts of assertions as to what social norms should be.  Let's not pretend that Social Science departments of universities are stocked with open-minded objective researchers. 

Social sciences are, by definition, open-minded. Conservatism is, by definition, close-minded. So it's no wonder that those two things don't mesh well together. Same reason there aren't a lot of liberals at business school.

What does it say to the state of colleges and universities when conservative lecturers are shouted down routinely to the point where their even being given a platform on campus is cause for discord and disturbance? Certainly, it says something for the college administrators and faculty that are OK with this. 

It says that these college administrators and faculty value free speech, which protects the students' rights to shout down speakers. Freedom of speech is important to me. Is it important to you?

Students not only have to conform to the Leftist leaning of professors for grades,

No they don't.

They have to conform to the leftist leanings of their fellow students to not be ostracized.

So now your definition of "colleges have gone mad" is that nobody wants to be friends with conservatives?

Colleges support your pre-determined conclusions of things.  Perhaps the "pre" part is when you were in college, and now you're a graduate, in which case, your viewpoints are the product of Leftist Engineering.

Can we stop pretending that Colleges are NOT Leftist bastions?  That they have become that way over time?  That conservative viewpoiints on campus, both amongst students and amongst faculty, are a minority viewpoint and endure varying degrees of disrespect?  That "Woke" ideology has thoroughly permeated mostly all public and most private universities and that sets the tone for college life in all aspects?

There are exceptions to this.  I would expect Liberty University to be more conservative, outwardly.  They are outliers, however.  Even traditionally conservative old-line universities such as Dartmouth and the University of Chicago have become notably Left.  Yale is as Left as Harvard.  In determining what to do about the issue of tenure, can we at least be honest as to what our public colleges and universities have  become?

[Fuzzy Bear]

Colleges support your pre-determined conclusions of things.  Perhaps the "pre" part is when you were in college, and now you're a graduate, in which case, your viewpoints are the product of Leftist Engineering.

I was a liberal long before I went to college.

Can we stop pretending that Colleges are NOT Leftist bastions?  That they have become that way over time?  That conservative viewpoints on campus, both amongst students and amongst faculty, are a minority viewpoint and endure varying degrees of disrespect?  That "Woke" ideology has thoroughly permeated mostly all public and most private universities and that sets the tone for college life in all aspects?

No I don't agree.

If you truly think that colleges turn everyone into liberals, then perhaps we don't have a problem of biased universities - perhaps the modern conservative movement has become so radical and so far removed from what it once stood that being exposed to new ideas and differing opinions is, in and of itself, "liberal" in your eyes.

The problem isn't universities have changed. Conservatives have changed.

I'm hardly a lifelong conservative.  I'm a social conservative, not so much on economics and other issues (although I do consider Biden's economic agenda to be lots of irresponsible spending mixed in with some worthwhile projects.) 

Universities HAVE changed.  My college years were 1975-79, and I can tell you that academia has gone from a liberal bias to flat out Leftism.  Even as a moderate liberal in 1975 in a college that was "Woke" before "Woke" was invented, I never felt compelled to conform to far Left ideologies.  There was a "Live, and Let Live" spirit that does not exist on campus today. 

What is the worst feature of our current universities is their progressive rejection of the idea of Western Civilization.  The whining about "racism", "sexism" "colonialism", etc. that they attribute to Western Civilization completely overlooks the fact that Western Civilization provides the ideas and principles which have brought us Civil Peace and the Rule of Law.  Western Civilization isn't perfect, and it's fine to study its imperfections and improve on them, but it's foolhardy to view other civilizations as some kind of Paradise Lost.

[Fuzzy Bear]

What is the worst feature of our current universities is their progressive rejection of the idea of Western Civilization.  The whining about "racism", "sexism" "colonialism", etc. that they attribute to Western Civilization completely overlooks the fact that Western Civilization provides the ideas and principles which have brought us Civil Peace and the Rule of Law.  Western Civilization isn't perfect, and it's fine to study its imperfections and improve on them, but it's foolhardy to view other civilizations as some kind of Paradise Lost.

Deconstructing western civilization, analyzing it and then criticizing it isn't the same thing as saying "other civilizations are/were perfect". It's absolutely a good thing that we examine ourselves, figure out where we might have gone wrong, and think about where we might correct that moving forward. Look at it another way... if you are having personal or family problems, does taking a hard look at yourself / your family, figuring out what the problems might be / might have been, and then thinking about how things might be better moving forward mean "other families are perfect"? Of course not. It sounds like you simply don't like western civilization being analyzed and all the imperfections being exposed. If that's the case, just say that. Many will disagree with you, but it's your right to hold that view.

Self-examination and criticism of Western Civilization is fine and good.  I'm fine with that.  Manipulative guilt tripping to impose Neo-Tribalism on our society is another.  I'll call that out every time it rears its evil head.

[Fuzzy Bear]

What is the worst feature of our current universities is their progressive rejection of the idea of Western Civilization.  The whining about "racism", "sexism" "colonialism", etc. that they attribute to Western Civilization completely overlooks the fact that Western Civilization provides the ideas and principles which have brought us Civil Peace and the Rule of Law.  Western Civilization isn't perfect, and it's fine to study its imperfections and improve on them, but it's foolhardy to view other civilizations as some kind of Paradise Lost.

Deconstructing western civilization, analyzing it and then criticizing it isn't the same thing as saying "other civilizations are/were perfect". It's absolutely a good thing that we examine ourselves, figure out where we might have gone wrong, and think about where we might correct that moving forward. Look at it another way... if you are having personal or family problems, does taking a hard look at yourself / your family, figuring out what the problems might be / might have been, and then thinking about how things might be better moving forward mean "other families are perfect"? Of course not. It sounds like you simply don't like western civilization being analyzed and all the imperfections being exposed. If that's the case, just say that. Many will disagree with you, but it's your right to hold that view.

Self-examination and criticism of Western Civilization is fine and good.  I'm fine with that.  Manipulative guilt tripping to impose Neo-Tribalism on our society is another.  I'll call that out every time it rears its evil head.

As opposed to old timey Tribalism and parochialism? I mean, that's usually where most conversations with "Western Civilization" outside a philosophy class end up.

Woke ideology, the Intersectionalist garbage, etc. are all part of the Neo-Tribalist view that some of the Left (though not all) are earnestly looking to impose on our nation. 

I will submit to the idea that a colorblind meritocracy governed as a Republic is the only means by which the end product can include Civil Peace and the Rule of Law.  These are the fruits of Western Civilization.  Anything other than that is collectivism of some sort (Tribalism being one type of collectivism).  Whatever that is, it ain't Liberal.  Indeed, there's nothing Liberal about today's Left.

[Fuzzy Bear]

and by pointing out that the paradigm of our society has shifted from a focus on the well-being of children to a focus of the happiness and personal choices of adults. 

Yes. Our society does ignore the well-being of children in favor of the desires of adults. For example, many of us think not only should society let parents teach their queer children that being queer is inherently wrong, it should also make do what it can to make sure those kids never see anything opposing those ideas, because apparently a parents desire to make their children believe they are inherently sinful and disgusting is more important than the child's mental well-being.

It's not a parent's job to validate every belief that their child holds.  Or to give in to every episode of temper tantrums and emotional blackmailing.  That's certainly not in a child's best interest.

[Fuzzy Bear]

and by pointing out that the paradigm of our society has shifted from a focus on the well-being of children to a focus of the happiness and personal choices of adults.  

Yes. Our society does ignore the well-being of children in favor of the desires of adults. For example, many of us think not only should society let parents teach their queer children that being queer is inherently wrong, it should also make do what it can to make sure those kids never see anything opposing those ideas, because apparently a parents desire to make their children believe they are inherently sinful and disgusting is more important than the child's mental well-being.

It's not a parent's job to validate every belief that their child holds.  Or to give in to every episode of temper tantrums and emotional blackmailing.  That's certainly not in a child's best interest.

The fact that your response to someone saying that a child's mental wellbeing is more important than a parents desire to make that child believe that they're inherently disgusting is to blab on about emotional blackmail and temper tantrums is horrifying and disgusting.

You've not walked in my shoes (and my wife's shoes) in these areas when it comes to the mental health issues of a child.  How I would deal with a trans child?  I don't know.  But "Give them what they want!" is not the default position for dealing with any issue of mental/behavioral health in a child, nor should it be.

Edit:  I just noticed that you're derailing the thread, and I've helped.  My bad!