Ron DeSantis signs bill to limit tenure at public universities

[Ferguson97]

Colleges support your pre-determined conclusions of things.  Perhaps the "pre" part is when you were in college, and now you're a graduate, in which case, your viewpoints are the product of Leftist Engineering.

I was a liberal long before I went to college.

Can we stop pretending that Colleges are NOT Leftist bastions?  That they have become that way over time?  That conservative viewpoints on campus, both amongst students and amongst faculty, are a minority viewpoint and endure varying degrees of disrespect?  That "Woke" ideology has thoroughly permeated mostly all public and most private universities and that sets the tone for college life in all aspects?

No I don't agree.

If you truly think that colleges turn everyone into liberals, then perhaps we don't have a problem of biased universities - perhaps the modern conservative movement has become so radical and so far removed from what it once stood that being exposed to new ideas and differing opinions is, in and of itself, "liberal" in your eyes.

The problem isn't universities have changed. Conservatives have changed.

[Fuzzy Says: "Abolish NPR!"]

Colleges support your pre-determined conclusions of things.  Perhaps the "pre" part is when you were in college, and now you're a graduate, in which case, your viewpoints are the product of Leftist Engineering.

I was a liberal long before I went to college.

Can we stop pretending that Colleges are NOT Leftist bastions?  That they have become that way over time?  That conservative viewpoints on campus, both amongst students and amongst faculty, are a minority viewpoint and endure varying degrees of disrespect?  That "Woke" ideology has thoroughly permeated mostly all public and most private universities and that sets the tone for college life in all aspects?

No I don't agree.

If you truly think that colleges turn everyone into liberals, then perhaps we don't have a problem of biased universities - perhaps the modern conservative movement has become so radical and so far removed from what it once stood that being exposed to new ideas and differing opinions is, in and of itself, "liberal" in your eyes.

The problem isn't universities have changed. Conservatives have changed.

I'm hardly a lifelong conservative.  I'm a social conservative, not so much on economics and other issues (although I do consider Biden's economic agenda to be lots of irresponsible spending mixed in with some worthwhile projects.) 

Universities HAVE changed.  My college years were 1975-79, and I can tell you that academia has gone from a liberal bias to flat out Leftism.  Even as a moderate liberal in 1975 in a college that was "Woke" before "Woke" was invented, I never felt compelled to conform to far Left ideologies.  There was a "Live, and Let Live" spirit that does not exist on campus today. 

What is the worst feature of our current universities is their progressive rejection of the idea of Western Civilization.  The whining about "racism", "sexism" "colonialism", etc. that they attribute to Western Civilization completely overlooks the fact that Western Civilization provides the ideas and principles which have brought us Civil Peace and the Rule of Law.  Western Civilization isn't perfect, and it's fine to study its imperfections and improve on them, but it's foolhardy to view other civilizations as some kind of Paradise Lost.

[T'Chenka]

What is the worst feature of our current universities is their progressive rejection of the idea of Western Civilization.  The whining about "racism", "sexism" "colonialism", etc. that they attribute to Western Civilization completely overlooks the fact that Western Civilization provides the ideas and principles which have brought us Civil Peace and the Rule of Law.  Western Civilization isn't perfect, and it's fine to study its imperfections and improve on them, but it's foolhardy to view other civilizations as some kind of Paradise Lost.

Deconstructing western civilization, analyzing it and then criticizing it isn't the same thing as saying "other civilizations are/were perfect". It's absolutely a good thing that we examine ourselves, figure out where we might have gone wrong, and think about where we might correct that moving forward. Look at it another way... if you are having personal or family problems, does taking a hard look at yourself / your family, figuring out what the problems might be / might have been, and then thinking about how things might be better moving forward mean "other families are perfect"? Of course not. It sounds like you simply don't like western civilization being analyzed and all the imperfections being exposed. If that's the case, just say that. Many will disagree with you, but it's your right to hold that view.

[Fuzzy Says: "Abolish NPR!"]

What is the worst feature of our current universities is their progressive rejection of the idea of Western Civilization.  The whining about "racism", "sexism" "colonialism", etc. that they attribute to Western Civilization completely overlooks the fact that Western Civilization provides the ideas and principles which have brought us Civil Peace and the Rule of Law.  Western Civilization isn't perfect, and it's fine to study its imperfections and improve on them, but it's foolhardy to view other civilizations as some kind of Paradise Lost.

Deconstructing western civilization, analyzing it and then criticizing it isn't the same thing as saying "other civilizations are/were perfect". It's absolutely a good thing that we examine ourselves, figure out where we might have gone wrong, and think about where we might correct that moving forward. Look at it another way... if you are having personal or family problems, does taking a hard look at yourself / your family, figuring out what the problems might be / might have been, and then thinking about how things might be better moving forward mean "other families are perfect"? Of course not. It sounds like you simply don't like western civilization being analyzed and all the imperfections being exposed. If that's the case, just say that. Many will disagree with you, but it's your right to hold that view.

Self-examination and criticism of Western Civilization is fine and good.  I'm fine with that.  Manipulative guilt tripping to impose Neo-Tribalism on our society is another.  I'll call that out every time it rears its evil head.

[Mr. Smith]

What is the worst feature of our current universities is their progressive rejection of the idea of Western Civilization.  The whining about "racism", "sexism" "colonialism", etc. that they attribute to Western Civilization completely overlooks the fact that Western Civilization provides the ideas and principles which have brought us Civil Peace and the Rule of Law.  Western Civilization isn't perfect, and it's fine to study its imperfections and improve on them, but it's foolhardy to view other civilizations as some kind of Paradise Lost.

Deconstructing western civilization, analyzing it and then criticizing it isn't the same thing as saying "other civilizations are/were perfect". It's absolutely a good thing that we examine ourselves, figure out where we might have gone wrong, and think about where we might correct that moving forward. Look at it another way... if you are having personal or family problems, does taking a hard look at yourself / your family, figuring out what the problems might be / might have been, and then thinking about how things might be better moving forward mean "other families are perfect"? Of course not. It sounds like you simply don't like western civilization being analyzed and all the imperfections being exposed. If that's the case, just say that. Many will disagree with you, but it's your right to hold that view.

Self-examination and criticism of Western Civilization is fine and good.  I'm fine with that.  Manipulative guilt tripping to impose Neo-Tribalism on our society is another.  I'll call that out every time it rears its evil head.

As opposed to old timey Tribalism and parochialism? I mean, that's usually where most conversations with "Western Civilization" outside a philosophy class end up.

[Fuzzy Says: "Abolish NPR!"]

What is the worst feature of our current universities is their progressive rejection of the idea of Western Civilization.  The whining about "racism", "sexism" "colonialism", etc. that they attribute to Western Civilization completely overlooks the fact that Western Civilization provides the ideas and principles which have brought us Civil Peace and the Rule of Law.  Western Civilization isn't perfect, and it's fine to study its imperfections and improve on them, but it's foolhardy to view other civilizations as some kind of Paradise Lost.

Deconstructing western civilization, analyzing it and then criticizing it isn't the same thing as saying "other civilizations are/were perfect". It's absolutely a good thing that we examine ourselves, figure out where we might have gone wrong, and think about where we might correct that moving forward. Look at it another way... if you are having personal or family problems, does taking a hard look at yourself / your family, figuring out what the problems might be / might have been, and then thinking about how things might be better moving forward mean "other families are perfect"? Of course not. It sounds like you simply don't like western civilization being analyzed and all the imperfections being exposed. If that's the case, just say that. Many will disagree with you, but it's your right to hold that view.

Self-examination and criticism of Western Civilization is fine and good.  I'm fine with that.  Manipulative guilt tripping to impose Neo-Tribalism on our society is another.  I'll call that out every time it rears its evil head.

As opposed to old timey Tribalism and parochialism? I mean, that's usually where most conversations with "Western Civilization" outside a philosophy class end up.

Woke ideology, the Intersectionalist garbage, etc. are all part of the Neo-Tribalist view that some of the Left (though not all) are earnestly looking to impose on our nation. 

I will submit to the idea that a colorblind meritocracy governed as a Republic is the only means by which the end product can include Civil Peace and the Rule of Law.  These are the fruits of Western Civilization.  Anything other than that is collectivism of some sort (Tribalism being one type of collectivism).  Whatever that is, it ain't Liberal.  Indeed, there's nothing Liberal about today's Left.

[DaleCooper]

Tenure is not the problem. Limiting tenure to professors who don't offend their colleagues is the problem. DeSantis's new bill does not resolve this problem, and it introduces new ones.

[OSR stands with Israel]

SNIP

Ok but even take the important social sciences (so not ones like gender studies and all) like international relations . Wouldn’t it be better if the amount of PHD’s in that were less so the field was truly exclusive so then you would get the smartest people to go into that. I would say the important field need to be more exclusive not less for this exactly reason .


Look how big a failure all are international experts have been so wouldn’t it be better if we made it more exclusive

[World politics is up Schmitt creek]

Fuzzy's definitely presenting a particular...slant on this issue, but he's right that humanities and social sciences faculties in most universities these days are much more ideologically homogeneous than in the past. The problem is that neither he nor anybody else has articulated a compelling reason to believe that making professors easier to dismiss would solve this rather than worsening it. They couldn't get rid of Allan Bloom because he had tenure. They can't get rid of Camille Paglia because she has tenure. There's little reason to believe that this new law would benefit people in situations similar to, or with reputations similar to, Bloom's and Paglia's.

[Kamala's side hoe]

I'll probably regret this post but...

SNIP

Ok but even take the important social sciences (so not ones like gender studies and all) like international relations . Wouldn’t it be better if the amount of PHD’s in that were less so the field was truly exclusive so then you would get the smartest people to go into that.

You're right, there are way too many PhD candidates for the number of (non- temp/adjunct) faculty positions available. This problem is by no means limited to social sciences and humanities. I'm not sure if limiting the number of PhDs in international relations would result in better aggregate geopolitics analysis, but I don't pay much attention to geopolitics in general, so maybe I'm not qualified to chime in.

Now imagine a Social Sciences professor doing longitudinal research and finding out the results of the outcomes of children growing up in not just single parent households, but in gay/lesbian households, trans households, etc.  Just what would be the response to data which showed the outcomes of children raised in such homes to be less optimal than children raised in two-parent biological families.  Would this research be received well, or would the research be suppressed, the researcher systematically discredited?  Which would happen in today's environment?

Never majored in a social science, but in all honestly I don't think such a study would be widely discredited. There probably haven't been enough children raised in gay/lesbian households (let alone households with one or more transgender parental figure) for there not to be sample size issues with an ongoing longitudinal study.

[Person Man]

I'll probably regret this post but...

SNIP

Ok but even take the important social sciences (so not ones like gender studies and all) like international relations . Wouldn’t it be better if the amount of PHD’s in that were less so the field was truly exclusive so then you would get the smartest people to go into that.

You're right, there are way too many PhD candidates for the number of (non- temp/adjunct) faculty positions available. This problem is by no means limited to social sciences and humanities. I'm not sure if limiting the number of PhDs in international relations would result in better aggregate geopolitics analysis, but I don't pay much attention to geopolitics in general, so maybe I'm not qualified to chime in.

Now imagine a Social Sciences professor doing longitudinal research and finding out the results of the outcomes of children growing up in not just single parent households, but in gay/lesbian households, trans households, etc.  Just what would be the response to data which showed the outcomes of children raised in such homes to be less optimal than children raised in two-parent biological families.  Would this research be received well, or would the research be suppressed, the researcher systematically discredited?  Which would happen in today's environment?

Never majored in a social science, but in all honestly I don't think such a study would be widely discredited. There probably haven't been enough children raised in gay/lesbian households (let alone households with one or more transgender parental figure) for there not to be sample size issues with an ongoing longitudinal study.

There are good reasons to “cut the fat” in academia, none of them have anything to do with 90% of professors hating you and your baby.

[Kamala's side hoe]

Are you seriously trying to argue that Democrats are the side of this culture war issue that wants to indoctrinate kids? They aren't the ones intervening in curricula to ban ideas they don't agree with.

California Democrats literally mandated ethnic studies statewide. Either side wants to do it, although school administration will do most of the work for Democrats if laws are neutral.

Ethnic studies aren't Dem propaganda nor do they necessarily lead students to support the Dems later on. Some of the criticism of Biden has been from parts of his record that have adversely affected today's black, Latino, and AAPI electorates.

That isn't what I said. I said Democrats don't want to ban ideas they don't like.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

and by pointing out that the paradigm of our society has shifted from a focus on the well-being of children to a focus of the happiness and personal choices of adults. 

Yes. Our society does ignore the well-being of children in favor of the desires of adults. For example, many of us think not only should society let parents teach their queer children that being queer is inherently wrong, it should also make do what it can to make sure those kids never see anything opposing those ideas, because apparently a parents desire to make their children believe they are inherently sinful and disgusting is more important than the child's mental well-being.

[Fuzzy Says: "Abolish NPR!"]

and by pointing out that the paradigm of our society has shifted from a focus on the well-being of children to a focus of the happiness and personal choices of adults. 

Yes. Our society does ignore the well-being of children in favor of the desires of adults. For example, many of us think not only should society let parents teach their queer children that being queer is inherently wrong, it should also make do what it can to make sure those kids never see anything opposing those ideas, because apparently a parents desire to make their children believe they are inherently sinful and disgusting is more important than the child's mental well-being.

It's not a parent's job to validate every belief that their child holds.  Or to give in to every episode of temper tantrums and emotional blackmailing.  That's certainly not in a child's best interest.

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

and by pointing out that the paradigm of our society has shifted from a focus on the well-being of children to a focus of the happiness and personal choices of adults. 

Yes. Our society does ignore the well-being of children in favor of the desires of adults. For example, many of us think not only should society let parents teach their queer children that being queer is inherently wrong, it should also make do what it can to make sure those kids never see anything opposing those ideas, because apparently a parents desire to make their children believe they are inherently sinful and disgusting is more important than the child's mental well-being.

It's not a parent's job to validate every belief that their child holds.  Or to give in to every episode of temper tantrums and emotional blackmailing.  That's certainly not in a child's best interest.

The fact that your response to someone saying that a child's mental wellbeing is more important than a parents desire to make that child believe that they're inherently disgusting is to blab on about emotional blackmail and temper tantrums is horrifying and disgusting.

[Fuzzy Says: "Abolish NPR!"]

and by pointing out that the paradigm of our society has shifted from a focus on the well-being of children to a focus of the happiness and personal choices of adults.  

Yes. Our society does ignore the well-being of children in favor of the desires of adults. For example, many of us think not only should society let parents teach their queer children that being queer is inherently wrong, it should also make do what it can to make sure those kids never see anything opposing those ideas, because apparently a parents desire to make their children believe they are inherently sinful and disgusting is more important than the child's mental well-being.

It's not a parent's job to validate every belief that their child holds.  Or to give in to every episode of temper tantrums and emotional blackmailing.  That's certainly not in a child's best interest.

The fact that your response to someone saying that a child's mental wellbeing is more important than a parents desire to make that child believe that they're inherently disgusting is to blab on about emotional blackmail and temper tantrums is horrifying and disgusting.

You've not walked in my shoes (and my wife's shoes) in these areas when it comes to the mental health issues of a child.  How I would deal with a trans child?  I don't know.  But "Give them what they want!" is not the default position for dealing with any issue of mental/behavioral health in a child, nor should it be.

Edit:  I just noticed that you're derailing the thread, and I've helped.  My bad!

[Since I'm the mad scientist proclaimed by myself]

and by pointing out that the paradigm of our society has shifted from a focus on the well-being of children to a focus of the happiness and personal choices of adults.  

Yes. Our society does ignore the well-being of children in favor of the desires of adults. For example, many of us think not only should society let parents teach their queer children that being queer is inherently wrong, it should also make do what it can to make sure those kids never see anything opposing those ideas, because apparently a parents desire to make their children believe they are inherently sinful and disgusting is more important than the child's mental well-being.

It's not a parent's job to validate every belief that their child holds.  Or to give in to every episode of temper tantrums and emotional blackmailing.  That's certainly not in a child's best interest.

The fact that your response to someone saying that a child's mental wellbeing is more important than a parents desire to make that child believe that they're inherently disgusting is to blab on about emotional blackmail and temper tantrums is horrifying and disgusting.

You've not walked in my shoes (and my wife's shoes) in these areas when it comes to the mental health issues of a child.  How I would deal with a trans child?  I don't know.  But "Give them what they want!" is not the default position for dealing with any issue of mental/behavioral health in a child, nor should it be.

Edit:  I just noticed that you're derailing the thread, and I've helped.  My bad!

I haven't walked in your shoes, but I've plainly seen the things you've said about these things. I haven't been a parent, but I've been a teen. I've dealt with self hatred, being misunderstood, and conflicts with my parents. I'm not without knowledge on this. "Give them what they want" isn't always the answer with children, but "dismiss their mental agony as just a bratty temper tantrum/emotional blackmail" is never the answer. Frankly, if my parents parented me like you've claimed to parent your child(ren?) I'd probably be in a coffin right now.

[Alcibiades]

This thread is really a greatest hits of OSR’s, uh, well, I’m not sure how to best phrase this without getting moderated … (limited) intellectual abilities?

I mean, really, all the classics are here: the embarrassing cheerleading for Fat Ron, the inability to comprehend that parents maybe should not have absolute dominion over their children, the intellectual incuriosity over anything not do to with his fellow computers, the apologia for the fascists in the old country, the generally risible debating skills with the bringing up of pathetically weak ‘gotchas’ (the Scott Walker thing ... lol), and of course, it wouldn’t be complete without the latest update on how his family are doing, for which I am sure we are all grateful.

Of all that mind-numbing content, though, this surely has to take the cake as a candidate for the most moronic post I have ever read on Atlas (not an easy accolade to come by!):

The reason I specified hard science is cause they unlike social science are not as political

Just … wow.

[All Along The Watchtower]

^The actual problem with social “science” disciplines is that they pretend to be scientific because they use Numbers and Data. It’s the humanities people should be concerned about in terms of politicization.

If you want to talk about toxic left-wing ideologues in academia at least get the damn fields right.

[OSR stands with Israel]

This thread is really a greatest hits of OSR’s, uh, well, I’m not sure how to best phrase this without getting moderated … (limited) intellectual abilities?

I mean, really, all the classics are here: the embarrassing cheerleading for Fat Ron, the inability to comprehend that parents maybe should not have absolute dominion over their children, the intellectual incuriosity over anything not do to with his fellow computers, the apologia for the fascists in the old country, the generally risible debating skills with the bringing up of pathetically weak ‘gotchas’ (the Scott Walker thing ... lol), and of course, it wouldn’t be complete without the latest update on how his family are doing, for which I am sure we are all grateful.

Of all that mind-numbing content, though, this surely has to take the cake as a candidate for the most moronic post I have ever read on Atlas (not an easy accolade to come by!):

The reason I specified hard science is cause they unlike social science are not as political

Just … wow.

If you put my positions  on education issues compared to yours I am sure mine would win in a landslide cause my views are widely held by the public . It’s you guys on the left who are in a complete bubble and have no ability whatsoever to comprehend viewpoints outside your progressive bubble .

So Cope and Seethe while us “ignorant” conservatives make these reforms cause the American public is in support of us

[Boobs]

So Cope and Seethe while us “ignorant” conservatives make these reforms cause the American public is in support of us

I can’t tell if you’re having a stroke, or I am.

[Dr. Arch]

So Cope and Seethe while us “ignorant” conservatives make these reforms cause the American public is in support of us

I can’t tell if you’re having a stroke, or I am.

I honestly, at one point, thought OSR was a more level headed and clear minded individual. Maybe at some point he was, and now his posts are basically some amalgamation of talking point memes on a political forum.

Maybe he's like this now and something changed along the way. I refuse to acknowledge this discourse as worthwhile addressing.

[PragmaticPopulist]

This thread is really a greatest hits of OSR’s, uh, well, I’m not sure how to best phrase this without getting moderated … (limited) intellectual abilities?

I mean, really, all the classics are here: the embarrassing cheerleading for Fat Ron, the inability to comprehend that parents maybe should not have absolute dominion over their children, the intellectual incuriosity over anything not do to with his fellow computers, the apologia for the fascists in the old country, the generally risible debating skills with the bringing up of pathetically weak ‘gotchas’ (the Scott Walker thing ... lol), and of course, it wouldn’t be complete without the latest update on how his family are doing, for which I am sure we are all grateful.

Of all that mind-numbing content, though, this surely has to take the cake as a candidate for the most moronic post I have ever read on Atlas (not an easy accolade to come by!):

The reason I specified hard science is cause they unlike social science are not as political

Just … wow.

My humble opinion is that it's OSR's right to fanboy Fat Ron all he wants. But it's also everyone's right to call him out on it. Free speech for all!

[OSR stands with Israel]

So Cope and Seethe while us “ignorant” conservatives make these reforms cause the American public is in support of us

I can’t tell if you’re having a stroke, or I am.

I honestly, at one point, thought OSR was a more level headed and clear minded individual. Maybe at some point he was, and now his posts are basically some amalgamation of talking point memes on a political forum.

Maybe he's like this now and something changed along the way. I refuse to acknowledge this discourse as worthwhile addressing.

I love it how you two are ignoring the fact that he launched a personal attack on me and I just responded in the kind it deserved. Also even when I was more “reasonable” on the issues , I was attacked personally by so many red avatar hacks for years on end but it’s only now when I start fighting back that you guys get mad . Even now when I make effort posts , instead of substantively responding to it , you see red avatars post how I’m only posting this to make excuses for my party and then launching other personal attacks .

Really it’s very indicative of the fact that liberals only respect conservatives who agree with liberal premises and never ever challenge a single one of them and also indicative of the fact you guys believe you have every right to belittle conservatives and believe we should just shut up and take it . Guess what I no longer am gonna take it and will fight back .

You are right though that I have changed . I have seen how the left has utterly ruined my city and state , they have weaponized institutions that used to be viewed as “non political” in this country to ram down their social agenda ,  and want to demonize people who hold socially traditional views and the fact is I no longer believe we should just accept this and instead believe we should fight back using all the power we have .


I do want to thank Conservacord for helping open my eyes

[Skunk]

You are right though that I have changed . I have seen how the left has utterly ruined my city and state , they have weaponized institutions that used to be viewed as “non political” in this country to ram down their social agenda ,  and want to demonize people who hold socially traditional views and the fact is I no longer believe we should just accept this and instead believe we should fight back using all the power we have .


I do want to thank Conservacord for helping open my eyes

Imagine being a grown man getting radicalized by a Discord server, lmao.