Ron DeSantis signs bill to limit tenure at public universities

[jojoju1998]

"It’s all about trying to make these institutions more in line with what the state’s priorities are [...]"

If this quote doesn't raise red flags for you, you should really sit down and reflect on your views.

Attempting to control research and academic discourse to make it more "in line" with "the state's priorities" is not even the first step towards a fascist state and parallels other fascist governments in history quite well.

This is an assault on academic freedom and free practice of a discipline. The state has NO business attempting to regulate academic freedom, much less by threatening tenure over it. This is dangerous, and people like OSR enable it with their fanatic politics.

Well that’s why you have private universities then and yes research grants should be prioritized for Hard Science not the social sciences .

 This is obviously beep boop  Being prejudiced in favor of his Fellow computers, rather than these "hoo-mans" he has heard of.

Given how much all these “research” into how to make our educational system has resulted in nothing but failure (and bright ideas like not teaching algebra in middle schools ) then yes they should be less prioritized . Also most of the “studies” majors are completely useless and we should absolutely disincentive those majors as well at public universities.

Dude. All this will do is just transport the rich folks who have the money and the means to private universities to study liberal arts, while having all the working class kids compete for classes in public universities to get " useful " degrees.

It's a form of classism. Elitism as well.

Oh and don't forget that if you have all these lower income working class kids get " useful " degrees, then the value of the degree will go down, wages will drop.

But that's the goal isn't it ?

How is it better for kids who go into these types of major to accumulate massive amount of debt and then end up working at a minimum wage job after college which they could have done after high school as well .


What would be better actually is we increase funding to trade schools , and try to incentivize companies to do job training more rather than require applicants to get degrees that aren’t relevant to their jobs .

1. Most working class kids don't major in humanites. Actually most kids overall major in business, nursing, engineering, very few study the humanities.  Actually, Business majors have a higher unemployment rate than humanities majors... hm....

2. Trade schools are already part of the public community college system at least in California. And you can get a two year associates degree in machining, HVAC, whatever.

[Dr. Arch]

Good professors will leave states that pass laws like this and go to states where they are wanted. So I guess this is good for a place like Illinois.

Exactly. FL is gubernatio non grata for any serious academic employment at this point.

[jojoju1998]

Good professors will leave states that pass laws like this and go to states where they are wanted. So I guess this is good for a place like Illinois.

Exactly. FL is gubernatio non grata for any serious academic employment at this point.

Also, if one is talking about useful degrees... no offense to Florida, But California, and Texas are the only two big states with  high paying Engineering jobs in medical devices, aerospace, at this time so.......

[jojoju1998]

"It’s all about trying to make these institutions more in line with what the state’s priorities are [...]"

If this quote doesn't raise red flags for you, you should really sit down and reflect on your views.

Attempting to control research and academic discourse to make it more "in line" with "the state's priorities" is not even the first step towards a fascist state and parallels other fascist governments in history quite well.

This is an assault on academic freedom and free practice of a discipline. The state has NO business attempting to regulate academic freedom, much less by threatening tenure over it. This is dangerous, and people like OSR enable it with their fanatic politics.

I didn't know that to beat China, we had to become like them.

[jojoju1998]

China is evil ! Hates Freedom ! Anti American !




So let's become like them ! To beat China !

[DaleCooper]

I don't know what the answer is to the problems associated with tenure, but this is clearly just a Republican effort to censor and fire people who disagree with their ideology. If anything, tenure needs to be strengthened. And the path to tenure needs to be less political and less dependent on whether or not the candidate's ideology is in line with what the institution's or state's establishment thinks. 

[Bismarck]

I actually don’t agree with that. We can barely get Americans to to stay in academia as it is. Don’t take away the one advantage of choosing that path. This just means more professors who can’t speak English and only import grad students from their own countries.

[Person Man]

This is the 2022 GOP platform:


Anyone who is publicly disobedient against the state or the state ideology is guilty of a Misdemeanor in the First Degree.
Research into non-state-approved science, especially chemistry and its various applications, cultivates irreligion and idleness.
Teaching civics, when unsupervised, in the public schools alienates racial affection, contributes to the delinquency of minors, and causes filial impiety.
Only the state ideology and basic numeracy and literacy should be taught to children.
The party should be the ultimate arbiter of all major institutions in the public life in the state and the church will be granted imperium by the state to punish those engaged in filial impiety.
Private estates (especially publishers like MAANG, Disney, and both the popular boutique and large legacy publishers) must carry out the policies of the state.
Elections will be held but only in such ways that the state party maintains the majority and may retroactively cancel any election that is determined to be irregular by the state party.

[jojoju1998]

I actually don’t agree with that. We can barely get Americans to to stay in academia as it is. Don’t take away the one advantage of choosing that path. This just means more professors who can’t speak English and only import grad students from their own countries.

Is the first time that democrats/progressives agree with you that this is a bad idea ??

[Bismarck]

I actually don’t agree with that. We can barely get Americans to to stay in academia as it is. Don’t take away the one advantage of choosing that path. This just means more professors who can’t speak English and only import grad students from their own countries.

Is the first time that democrats/progressives agree with you that this is a bad idea ??

I’ve read your question three times and I still am not sure what you are asking.

[jojoju1998]

I actually don’t agree with that. We can barely get Americans to to stay in academia as it is. Don’t take away the one advantage of choosing that path. This just means more professors who can’t speak English and only import grad students from their own countries.

Is the first time that democrats/progressives agree with you that this is a bad idea ??

I’ve read your question three times and I still am not sure what you are asking.

Democrats/progressives think it's bad idea.

You think it's a bad idea.

We therefore agree that it's a bad idea.

[Bismarck]

I actually don’t agree with that. We can barely get Americans to to stay in academia as it is. Don’t take away the one advantage of choosing that path. This just means more professors who can’t speak English and only import grad students from their own countries.

Is the first time that democrats/progressives agree with you that this is a bad idea ??

I’ve read your question three times and I still am not sure what you are asking.

Democrats/progressives think it's bad idea.

You think it's a bad idea.

We therefore agree that it's a bad idea.

Oh I frequently agree with the left. I don’t post enough on here that my political views are as clear as some other posters. I am conservative but there is a lot about the modern right that I strongly dislike.

[Santander]

Academic tenure is one of the most important foundations of a research university. Effectively getting rid of tenure would be a death sentence for the University of Florida. No serious academic would want to work there if they had options anywhere else. If anything, dragging them in front of a board every 5 years will only increase "ideological orthodoxy" or whatever he wants to call it.

[7,052,770]

Academic tenure is one of the most important foundations of a research university. Effectively getting rid of tenure would be a death sentence for the University of Florida. No serious academic would want to work there if they had options anywhere else. If anything, dragging them in front of a board every 5 years will only increase "ideological orthodoxy" or whatever he wants to call it.

Yeah but the loss of prestige of UF and FSU won't happen overnight, so it's a problem for (and that can be blamed on) DeSantis's successors.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Academic tenure is one of the most important foundations of a research university. Effectively getting rid of tenure would be a death sentence for the University of Florida. No serious academic would want to work there if they had options anywhere else. If anything, dragging them in front of a board every 5 years will only increase "ideological orthodoxy" or whatever he wants to call it.

Yeah but the loss of prestige of UF and FSU won't happen overnight, so it's a problem for (and that can be blamed on) DeSantis's successors.

Scott Walker did the same thing :


https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/scott-walker-college-professor-tenure-120009?_amp=true

[Santander]

Academic tenure is one of the most important foundations of a research university. Effectively getting rid of tenure would be a death sentence for the University of Florida. No serious academic would want to work there if they had options anywhere else. If anything, dragging them in front of a board every 5 years will only increase "ideological orthodoxy" or whatever he wants to call it.

Yeah but the loss of prestige of UF and FSU won't happen overnight, so it's a problem for (and that can be blamed on) DeSantis's successors.

I doubt there will be any political consequences for anyone. As the flagship university of one of the biggest states, UF will always have students, and it has enough institutional inertia to always be a PhD factory. The public doesn't really care about its research stature within the academic community.

[lfromnj]

Also this is fascism but these things aren’t :

- A prime minister freezing bank accounts of protesters

- democrats openly trying to limit parents rights when it comes to their kids education

- banning people on social media who disagree with so called “experts”

Much more as well

#2 and #3 are very compatible with the values of a free society.

No it is not as number 2 is literally what fascist and communist government did to ensure they could indoctrinate their kids and remove all sense of individuality . Number 3 could if their wasn’t section 230 protections given to those platforms and also cheerleadered by politicians

Are you seriously trying to argue that Democrats are the side of this culture war issue that wants to indoctrinate kids? They aren't the ones intervening in curricula to ban ideas they don't agree with.

For the record, I don't like the first or third policies you mentioned, and don't support the people who enact them. The second point is so vague that it doesn't inherently mean anything, but if you want to interpret "parents' rights" as meaning that parents have a "right" to sue schools for teaching things they don't like - yeah, that's not a "right" I support.

California Democrats literally mandated ethnic studies statewide. Either side wants to do it, although school administration will do most of the work for Democrats if laws are neutral.

[7,052,770]

Academic tenure is one of the most important foundations of a research university. Effectively getting rid of tenure would be a death sentence for the University of Florida. No serious academic would want to work there if they had options anywhere else. If anything, dragging them in front of a board every 5 years will only increase "ideological orthodoxy" or whatever he wants to call it.

Yeah but the loss of prestige of UF and FSU won't happen overnight, so it's a problem for (and that can be blamed on) DeSantis's successors.

Scott Walker did the same thing :


https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/scott-walker-college-professor-tenure-120009?_amp=true

Why you want to favorably compare DeSantis to a guy whose presidential campaign was a joke and who was defeated for reelection is beyond me, but we can all pray that DeSantis sees the same fate.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Academic tenure is one of the most important foundations of a research university. Effectively getting rid of tenure would be a death sentence for the University of Florida. No serious academic would want to work there if they had options anywhere else. If anything, dragging them in front of a board every 5 years will only increase "ideological orthodoxy" or whatever he wants to call it.

Yeah but the loss of prestige of UF and FSU won't happen overnight, so it's a problem for (and that can be blamed on) DeSantis's successors.

Scott Walker did the same thing :


https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/scott-walker-college-professor-tenure-120009?_amp=true

Why you want to favorably compare DeSantis to a guy whose presidential campaign was a joke and who was defeated for reelection is beyond me, but we can all pray that DeSantis sees the same fate.

Walker was governor for 8 years and was able to fundamentally change a lot of things about Wisconsin and imo he changed it for the better

[Santander]

Academic tenure is one of the most important foundations of a research university. Effectively getting rid of tenure would be a death sentence for the University of Florida. No serious academic would want to work there if they had options anywhere else. If anything, dragging them in front of a board every 5 years will only increase "ideological orthodoxy" or whatever he wants to call it.

Yeah but the loss of prestige of UF and FSU won't happen overnight, so it's a problem for (and that can be blamed on) DeSantis's successors.

Scott Walker did the same thing :


https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/scott-walker-college-professor-tenure-120009?_amp=true

Why you want to favorably compare DeSantis to a guy whose presidential campaign was a joke and who was defeated for reelection is beyond me, but we can all pray that DeSantis sees the same fate.

Walker was governor for 8 years and was able to fundamentally change a lot of things about Wisconsin and imo he changed it for the better

He changed it for the better when he left.

[scutosaurus]

Also this is fascism but these things aren’t :

- A prime minister freezing bank accounts of protesters

- democrats openly trying to limit parents rights when it comes to their kids education

- banning people on social media who disagree with so called “experts”

Much more as well

#2 and #3 are very compatible with the values of a free society.

No it is not as number 2 is literally what fascist and communist government did to ensure they could indoctrinate their kids and remove all sense of individuality . Number 3 could if their wasn’t section 230 protections given to those platforms and also cheerleadered by politicians

Are you seriously trying to argue that Democrats are the side of this culture war issue that wants to indoctrinate kids? They aren't the ones intervening in curricula to ban ideas they don't agree with.

For the record, I don't like the first or third policies you mentioned, and don't support the people who enact them. The second point is so vague that it doesn't inherently mean anything, but if you want to interpret "parents' rights" as meaning that parents have a "right" to sue schools for teaching things they don't like - yeah, that's not a "right" I support.

California Democrats literally mandated ethnic studies statewide. Either side wants to do it, although school administration will do most of the work for Democrats if laws are neutral.

That isn't what I said. I said Democrats don't want to ban ideas they don't like.

[GregTheGreat657]

Based

[ilikeverin]

Academic tenure is one of the most important foundations of a research university. Effectively getting rid of tenure would be a death sentence for the University of Florida. No serious academic would want to work there if they had options anywhere else. If anything, dragging them in front of a board every 5 years will only increase "ideological orthodoxy" or whatever he wants to call it.

Yeah but the loss of prestige of UF and FSU won't happen overnight, so it's a problem for (and that can be blamed on) DeSantis's successors.

Scott Walker did the same thing :


https://www.politico.com/story/2015/07/scott-walker-college-professor-tenure-120009?_amp=true

Yes, and this certainly led folks to leave UW-Madison for less hostile climes and has done lasting damage to its prestige and consequently its research productivity.

[ilikeverin]

Then we should privatize research grants more then if that’s the issue cause government subsidized things never can truly be “free” as the government has to actively choose which grants to approve and which not too .

That decision is usually made by people who do have political agendas as well so the this will mainly just provide more oversight over  unelected  bureaucrats which I generally support.

Major grant decisions (at places like NIH and NSF) are made by scientific peers, not by "unelected bureaucrats". It depends on the agency, but a few faculty send our scores in to someone working at the agency. The scores are based on rubrics that are available to anyone and tend to prioritize (1) general academic merit and (2) something specific to the agency (for the NIH, health outcomes; for NSF, "broader impacts", which is generally some sort of community impact or public science education). Critically, the "someone" (usually called a program officer) is someone who has also had academic training and probably has received several grants themselves at some point; it's seen as prestigious, if tedious, to become a program officer. The highest scoring proposals are then discussed as a bunch of peers, and the grants are ranked. Depending on the agency, the program officer may have a bit of discretion for grants that fall right on the boundary of being funded, but again it's based on the same criteria I outlined above.

Only about 10-15% of major grants are funded. I'd say the main issues with funding these days is that (1) one-in-ten isn't a great level of success, so you're incentivized to chase the funding obsessively rather than following the science, and (2) it's often the case that the rich get richer (e.g., you generally need pilot data to get a grant funded these days, but how do you get pilot data if you don't have money in the first place?). The amount of interference from "unelected bureaucrats" is small unless you consider faculty members to be "unelected bureaucrats". (But I think we'd all agree it would be bonkers for elected officials to evaluate scientific grants, right?!) Even then, the folks working at the funding agency aren't just random people with political agendas, they're usually scooped up from tenure-track positions by the NSF or NIH.

[OSR stands with Israel]

Also this is fascism but these things aren’t :

- A prime minister freezing bank accounts of protesters

- democrats openly trying to limit parents rights when it comes to their kids education

- banning people on social media who disagree with so called “experts”

Much more as well

#2 and #3 are very compatible with the values of a free society.

No it is not as number 2 is literally what fascist and communist government did to ensure they could indoctrinate their kids and remove all sense of individuality . Number 3 could if their wasn’t section 230 protections given to those platforms and also cheerleadered by politicians

Are you seriously trying to argue that Democrats are the side of this culture war issue that wants to indoctrinate kids? They aren't the ones intervening in curricula to ban ideas they don't agree with.

Yes , liberal ivory tower elites are the ones who are trying to implement crt stuff in the classroom and democrats just stand by and let it happen. So yes democrats are using institutions as proxy to implement their social agenda while republicans only have the poltical arena to use and im glad that they are using it