January 6th legal proceedings and investigations megathread

[emailking]

I think this tone crosses a line. I know the first amendment has quite wide bonds, but at one point it's got to stop. I'm sure a defendant wouldn't get away with this in Germany. And rightfully so.

Hopefully if the judge agrees with the request (Trump response due Sept 25) he won't be allowed to do much beyond saying he's innocent. Certainly won't be able to call Smith deranged, by the parameters in the request.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

I think this tone crosses a line. I know the first amendment has quite wide bonds, but at one point it's got to stop. I'm sure a defendant wouldn't get away with this in Germany. And rightfully so.

Hopefully if the judge agrees with the request (Trump response due Sept 25) he won't be allowed to do much beyond saying he's innocent. Certainly won't be able to call Smith deranged, by the parameters in the request.

Ah, but don't forget to take into account the system's burning desire to prove how impartial it is by giving Trump more leeway than any other defendant in America today. I keep getting this sinking feeling that January 6th really will turn out to have been the Beer Hall Coup, and next time Trump won't make as many mistakes. (Hopefully his diet and drug use catches up to him and keels over of natural causes before he can try to destroy the United States again.)

[emailking]

By playing to his ego, she got him to undermine his defense on J6. He's been using an advice of counsel defense in court. But in the interview he said he listened to himself, not lawyers.

“In many cases I didn’t respect them,” he continued. “But I did respect others, I respected many others that said the election was rigged.”

Welker noted that Trump had previously said some of his outside attorneys had crazy theories about the election.

“You know who I listen to? Myself. I saw what happened. I watched that election, and I thought that election was over at 10 o’clock in the evening,” Trump said.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4208807-trump-says-he-didnt-respect-his-lawyers-who-said-he-lost-2020-election/

[Joe Biden 2024]

By playing to his ego, she got him to undermine his defense on J6. He's been using an advice of counsel defense in court. But in the interview he said he listened to himself, not lawyers.

“In many cases I didn’t respect them,” he continued. “But I did respect others, I respected many others that said the election was rigged.”

Welker noted that Trump had previously said some of his outside attorneys had crazy theories about the election.

“You know who I listen to? Myself. I saw what happened. I watched that election, and I thought that election was over at 10 o’clock in the evening,” Trump said.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4208807-trump-says-he-didnt-respect-his-lawyers-who-said-he-lost-2020-election/

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the trial culminates in Trump yelling "You're God damn right I did!" on the stand.

[LBJer]

I think this tone crosses a line. I know the first amendment has quite wide bonds, but at one point it's got to stop. I'm sure a defendant wouldn't get away with this in Germany. And rightfully so.

Hopefully if the judge agrees with the request (Trump response due Sept 25) he won't be allowed to do much beyond saying he's innocent. Certainly won't be able to call Smith deranged, by the parameters in the request.

Ah, but don't forget to take into account the system's burning desire to prove how impartial it is by giving Trump more leeway than any other defendant in America today.

If that's really what they're doing, then by definition they're NOT being impartial.  Giving him more leeway than any other defendant is no more "impartial" than giving him less than any other.

[Penn_Quaker_Girl]

By playing to his ego, she got him to undermine his defense on J6. He's been using an advice of counsel defense in court. But in the interview he said he listened to himself, not lawyers.

“In many cases I didn’t respect them,” he continued. “But I did respect others, I respected many others that said the election was rigged.”

Welker noted that Trump had previously said some of his outside attorneys had crazy theories about the election.

“You know who I listen to? Myself. I saw what happened. I watched that election, and I thought that election was over at 10 o’clock in the evening,” Trump said.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4208807-trump-says-he-didnt-respect-his-lawyers-who-said-he-lost-2020-election/

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the trial culminates in Trump yelling "You're God damn right I did!" on the stand.

"And I'd do it again, too!"

[LBJer]

By playing to his ego, she got him to undermine his defense on J6. He's been using an advice of counsel defense in court. But in the interview he said he listened to himself, not lawyers.

“In many cases I didn’t respect them,” he continued. “But I did respect others, I respected many others that said the election was rigged.”

Welker noted that Trump had previously said some of his outside attorneys had crazy theories about the election.

“You know who I listen to? Myself. I saw what happened. I watched that election, and I thought that election was over at 10 o’clock in the evening,” Trump said.

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4208807-trump-says-he-didnt-respect-his-lawyers-who-said-he-lost-2020-election/

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if the trial culminates in Trump yelling "You're God damn right I did!" on the stand.

It wouldn't be surprising--Trump and Jessup both have the same massive entitlement complex.

[Crumpets]

I've seen a lot of to-do, especially on the right wing internet today, about one of the defendants getting a pretty minor charge that they are alleging is because he was a secret fed? Anyone know what this is about?

[GeorgiaModerate]

I've seen a lot of to-do, especially on the right wing internet today, about one of the defendants getting a pretty minor charge that they are alleging is because he was a secret fed? Anyone know what this is about?

It was Ray Epps, who the MAGA nuts have been convinced was an FBI plant due to a conspiracy theory invented by Tucker Carlson; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Epps_(military_veteran) for a good writeup.

[Pericles]

Trump's stupidity nukes his own defence.

The “advice of counsel” defense posits that if you received and accepted reasonable legal advice, you might not have had the requisite intent for certain crimes.

Whatever the shortcomings in Kristen Welker’s “Meet the Press” interview, it did provide Trump with the opportunity to disarm one of his defenses to the indictments regarding Jan. 6, 2021. Welker asked, “The most senior lawyers in your own administration and in your campaign told you that after you lost more than 60 legal challenges that it was over. Why did you ignore them and decide to listen to a new outside group of attorneys?” He responded that he didn’t “respect them.” He explained, “You know who I listen to? Myself. I saw what happened, I watched that election, and I thought the election was over at 10 o’clock in the evening. My instincts are a big part of it. That’s been the thing that’s gotten me to where I am — my instincts.”

Just to make sure everyone understood he wasn’t blaming the lawyers, he reiterated, “It was my decision. I listened to some people.”

The article goes on to speculate that Trump outright saying he did not follow legal advice means that he would be barred from using the defence unless he takes the stand to explain himself.

Jack Smith's 'secret weapon'? Donald Trump

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Trump's stupidity nukes his own defence.

The “advice of counsel” defense posits that if you received and accepted reasonable legal advice, you might not have had the requisite intent for certain crimes.

Whatever the shortcomings in Kristen Welker’s “Meet the Press” interview, it did provide Trump with the opportunity to disarm one of his defenses to the indictments regarding Jan. 6, 2021. Welker asked, “The most senior lawyers in your own administration and in your campaign told you that after you lost more than 60 legal challenges that it was over. Why did you ignore them and decide to listen to a new outside group of attorneys?” He responded that he didn’t “respect them.” He explained, “You know who I listen to? Myself. I saw what happened, I watched that election, and I thought the election was over at 10 o’clock in the evening. My instincts are a big part of it. That’s been the thing that’s gotten me to where I am — my instincts.”

Just to make sure everyone understood he wasn’t blaming the lawyers, he reiterated, “It was my decision. I listened to some people.”

The article goes on to speculate that Trump outright saying he did not follow legal advice means that he would be barred from using the defence unless he takes the stand to explain himself.

Jack Smith's 'secret weapon'? Donald Trump

The obvious move for his defense team is, of course, to say that he was lying.
"You honor, my client lies all the time. He is a compulsive prevaricator. No reasonable person would expect him to be telling the truth in a broadcast interview, or at any other time."

[emailking]

Even if he's allowed to make the defense, they can play the interview that contradicts it. Then he'd have to say himself under oath that he was lying if they want that clarified for the jury.

[Sir Mohamed]

Here is Trump's reaction and hopefully he won't be able to say **** like this soon.

Biden Prosecutor, Deranged Jack Smith, has asked the Court to limit 45th President, and leading Republican Nominee (by more than 50 points, & beating Dems!) DONALD J. TRUMP’S, PUBLIC STATEMENTS. So, I’m campaigning for President against an incompetent person who has WEAPONIZED the DOJ & FBI to go after his Political Opponent, & I am not allowed to COMMENT? They Leak, Lie, & Sue, & they won’t allow me to SPEAK? How else would I explain that Jack Smith is DERANGED, or Crooked Joe is INCOMPETENT?

Jesus. Why do all his messages read like from a whiny toddler that just got his M&Ms taken away?

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Here is Trump's reaction and hopefully he won't be able to say **** like this soon.

Biden Prosecutor, Deranged Jack Smith, has asked the Court to limit 45th President, and leading Republican Nominee (by more than 50 points, & beating Dems!) DONALD J. TRUMP’S, PUBLIC STATEMENTS. So, I’m campaigning for President against an incompetent person who has WEAPONIZED the DOJ & FBI to go after his Political Opponent, & I am not allowed to COMMENT? They Leak, Lie, & Sue, & they won’t allow me to SPEAK? How else would I explain that Jack Smith is DERANGED, or Crooked Joe is INCOMPETENT?

Jesus. Why do all his messages read like from a whiny toddler that just got his M&Ms taken away?

Because that's what he is, mentally.

[GeorgiaModerate]

https://twitter.com/MacFarlaneNews/status/1707149253129212188
https://twitter.com/MacFarlaneNews/status/1707149648006115524

[emailking]

Special counsel notes Trump’s gun store visit and Milley remarks in push for gag order

Federal prosecutors have told a federal judge that if Donald Trump had bought a gun earlier this week during a campaign stop, he would be violating his release conditions as a criminal defendant and breaking the law, according to a Friday court filing.

A campaign spokesman for Trump had posted on social media that Trump bought a Glock in South Carolina on Monday, then removed the post and clarified to CNN the former president hadn’t purchased the firearm.

Prosecutors pointed to the moment, as well as the former president’s recent attacks on departing Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Mark Milley, in asking a federal judge to place more restrictions on Trump, particularly on what he can say, as he awaits trial in Washington, DC, on federal charges of 2020 election interference.

“The defendant either purchased a gun in violation of the law and his conditions of release, or seeks to benefit from his supporters’ mistaken belief that he did so,” the prosecutors wrote on Friday. “It would be a separate federal crime, and thus a violation of the defendant’s conditions of release, for him to purchase a gun while this felony indictment is pending.”

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/29/politics/trump-gag-order-special-counsel-gun-store-milley/index.html

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Special counsel notes Trump’s gun store visit and Milley remarks in push for gag order

Federal prosecutors have told a federal judge that if Donald Trump had bought a gun earlier this week during a campaign stop, he would be violating his release conditions as a criminal defendant and breaking the law, according to a Friday court filing.

A campaign spokesman for Trump had posted on social media that Trump bought a Glock in South Carolina on Monday, then removed the post and clarified to CNN the former president hadn’t purchased the firearm.

Prosecutors pointed to the moment, as well as the former president’s recent attacks on departing Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Mark Milley, in asking a federal judge to place more restrictions on Trump, particularly on what he can say, as he awaits trial in Washington, DC, on federal charges of 2020 election interference.

“The defendant either purchased a gun in violation of the law and his conditions of release, or seeks to benefit from his supporters’ mistaken belief that he did so,” the prosecutors wrote on Friday. “It would be a separate federal crime, and thus a violation of the defendant’s conditions of release, for him to purchase a gun while this felony indictment is pending.”

https://www.cnn.com/2023/09/29/politics/trump-gag-order-special-counsel-gun-store-milley/index.html

Here's an excerpt from the full text of the government's reply.

[GeorgiaModerate]

My prediction for how this is going to go:

1. Chutkan will grant the government's gag order request, or something close to it.

2. Trump will behave for a little while, but then revert to form and say something else that clearly violates it.

3. Smith will file another complaint. Chutkan will make Trump appear in person for a hearing. She'll warn him that if he violates his condition of release one more time, his bond will be revoked and he'll be detained until trial.  She might also try to move the trial date earlier, although it's already on a fairly ambitious schedule.

4. See 2.

5. Trump's bond is revoked and he's detained under house arrest until the trial, and he's prohibited from any social media use.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

My prediction for how this is going to go:

1. Chutkan will grant the government's gag order request, or something close to it.

2. Trump will behave for a little while, but then revert to form and say something else that clearly violates it.

3. Smith will file another complaint. Chutkan will make Trump appear in person for a hearing. She'll warn him that if he violates his condition of release one more time, his bond will be revoked and he'll be detained until trial.  She might also try to move the trial date earlier, although it's already on a fairly ambitious schedule.

4. See 2.

5. Trump's bond is revoked and he's detained under house arrest until the trial, and he's prohibited from any social media use.

I expect you're correct here, in no small part because Donald Trump cannot really comprehend the idea of "negative consequences for his behavior". But the next questions are, "What happens after things get to #5? And when do they get to #5?"

Being under house arrest and effectively incommunicado will doubtless help Donald with his believers... but he doesn't need stronger bonds with them. I can imagine scenarios where it might hurt his chances at the nomination, especially if it happens in the next three months. What I can't imagine is Trump actually obeying orders putting him under house arrest and prohibiting social media - it's just a matter of what he'll do instead.

Openly defy the order and head out to campaign events? Hold rallies at Mar-a-lago? Run "campaign ads" that are themselves attacks on the court, and de facto social media posts? Find a way to get some sort of appeal in front of the Roberts Court? Try to launch another coup? (I don't think that last would have much success, but he could certainly get a terrorist campaign going.)

[Landslide Lyndon]

Openly defy the order and head out to campaign events? Hold rallies at Mar-a-lago?

Running a front porch campaign in 2024 was definitely not something I was expecting to see.

[pbrower2a]

Here is Trump's reaction and hopefully he won't be able to say **** like this soon.

Biden Prosecutor, Deranged Jack Smith, has asked the Court to limit 45th President, and leading Republican Nominee (by more than 50 points, & beating Dems!) DONALD J. TRUMP’S, PUBLIC STATEMENTS. So, I’m campaigning for President against an incompetent person who has WEAPONIZED the DOJ & FBI to go after his Political Opponent, & I am not allowed to COMMENT? They Leak, Lie, & Sue, & they won’t allow me to SPEAK? How else would I explain that Jack Smith is DERANGED, or Crooked Joe is INCOMPETENT?

He crosses a line. I know the first amendment has quite wide bonds, but at one point it's got to stop. I'm sure a defendant wouldn't get away with this in Germany. And rightfully so.

Something else about Germany: it has an excellent educational system, and anyone who has the grades and equivalent of college board scores gets free college all the way to a professional school. Taxes are high and physicians' salaries are low by US standards, but there is no huge debt to pay.

This said, the strange political career of Donald Trump depeds upon the ignoramus vote. I'm not going to say that we need to keep stupid people from voting, but ust to avoid creating big problems it is best that our politicians appeal ro the best in our narional character. Nearly all solutions that make life better for us originate in smart people.
 

[emailking]

The judge set a hearing on October 16 for the potential gag order.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

The judge set a hearing on October 16 for the potential gag order.

Could this effectively halt his campaign entirely?

[emailking]

Smith is asking that he can't speak negatively about anyone involved in the case (judge, Smith, prosecutors, witnesses) or say anything that could prejudice or intimidate jurors. He would still be allowed to declare he's innocent in a general sense. And he could also just campaign on the issues and not talk about the case. So I don't think so. Now if he violates multiple times and ends up in jail awaiting trial that would probably halt things.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Smith is asking that he can't speak negatively about anyone involved in the case (judge, Smith, prosecutors, witnesses) or say anything that could prejudice or intimidate jurors. He would still be allowed to declare he's innocent in a general sense. And he could also just campaign on the issues and not talk about the case. So I don't think so. Now if he violates multiple times and ends up in jail awaiting trial that would probably halt things.

In theory maybe, but getting Trump to shut up about things is near impossible, especially in off the cuff remarks at rallies and stuff like that. Him just proclaiming he's innocent and not threatening prosecutors, witnesses, the judge, etc. is something where the more he talks the odds approach zero.