January 6th legal proceedings and investigations megathread

[lfromnj]

Obama judge that was confirmed on mostly partisan lines

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Unless they hurt someone or damaged property, probation sounds fine for the rest.

Probation for trying to violently overthrow the government?

Didn't I say violent ones deserve jail time?  Yes, yes I did.

They were all violent. At best you could argue that this terrorist only intended to come in the Capitol to yell, scream, and threaten Congressmen into overturning the election while not being willing to throw any punches or pull any triggers himself, but considering how he knowingly and willingly went in there with people who were willing to go all the way, is that really a convincing argument? I think not. We all know what his intentions were.

Uh, no, they were not all violent.  Many were arrested after the fact just for being outside of the buildings but on the grounds. I'm in favor of punishing for what they did, not what any of us think their intentions were.  If they committed violence or damaged property, jail time. 

[Torie]

Unless they hurt someone or damaged property, probation sounds fine for the rest.

Probation for trying to violently overthrow the government?

Didn't I say violent ones deserve jail time?  Yes, yes I did.

They were all violent. At best you could argue that this terrorist only intended to come in the Capitol to yell, scream, and threaten Congressmen into overturning the election while not being willing to throw any punches or pull any triggers himself, but considering how he knowingly and willingly went in there with people who were willing to go all the way, is that really a convincing argument? I think not. We all know what his intentions were.

Uh, no, they were not all violent.  Many were arrested after the fact just for being outside of the buildings but on the grounds. I'm in favor of punishing for what they did, not what any of us think their intentions were.  If they committed violence or damaged property, jail time.  

Yes, you already so opined Grumps, so no need to repeat when there is Joe Republic's rope thing (see above) twisting, twisting slowly in the wind for you to contend with. Is that just his fashion accessory of choice?

[lfromnj]

Unless they hurt someone or damaged property, probation sounds fine for the rest.

Probation for trying to violently overthrow the government?

Didn't I say violent ones deserve jail time?  Yes, yes I did.

They were all violent. At best you could argue that this terrorist only intended to come in the Capitol to yell, scream, and threaten Congressmen into overturning the election while not being willing to throw any punches or pull any triggers himself, but considering how he knowingly and willingly went in there with people who were willing to go all the way, is that really a convincing argument? I think not. We all know what his intentions were.

Uh, no, they were not all violent.  Many were arrested after the fact just for being outside of the buildings but on the grounds. I'm in favor of punishing for what they did, not what any of us think their intentions were.  If they committed violence or damaged property, jail time. 

Arrested yes but as far as I can tell most were dropped.

[7,052,770]

Unless they hurt someone or damaged property, probation sounds fine for the rest.

Probation for trying to violently overthrow the government?

Didn't I say violent ones deserve jail time?  Yes, yes I did.

They were all violent. At best you could argue that this terrorist only intended to come in the Capitol to yell, scream, and threaten Congressmen into overturning the election while not being willing to throw any punches or pull any triggers himself, but considering how he knowingly and willingly went in there with people who were willing to go all the way, is that really a convincing argument? I think not. We all know what his intentions were.

Uh, no, they were not all violent.  Many were arrested after the fact just for being outside of the buildings but on the grounds. I'm in favor of punishing for what they did, not what any of us think their intentions were.  If they committed violence or damaged property, jail time. 

This has nothing to do with the people who never entered the Captiol - have you even read the thread? This man was in the House chamber and Pelosi's office.

Again, the reason they stormed the Capitol was to try to force Congress to overturn the election and declare Trump the winner. That of course wasn't possible, but their media sources and Trump himself told them it was. The best spin you can put on anyone who participated is that some of them may have only been there for intimidation and moral support and fully intended to leave the actual violence up to others, but that's still participating in an attempted overthrow of the government.

[emailking]

The prosecutors asked for 18 months, so he actually got off easy.

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Unless they hurt someone or damaged property, probation sounds fine for the rest.

Probation for trying to violently overthrow the government?

Didn't I say violent ones deserve jail time?  Yes, yes I did.

They were all violent. At best you could argue that this terrorist only intended to come in the Capitol to yell, scream, and threaten Congressmen into overturning the election while not being willing to throw any punches or pull any triggers himself, but considering how he knowingly and willingly went in there with people who were willing to go all the way, is that really a convincing argument? I think not. We all know what his intentions were.

Uh, no, they were not all violent.  Many were arrested after the fact just for being outside of the buildings but on the grounds. I'm in favor of punishing for what they did, not what any of us think their intentions were.  If they committed violence or damaged property, jail time.  

Yes, you already so opined Grumps, so no need to repeat when there is Joe Republic's rope thing (see above) twisting, twisting slowly in the wind for you to contend with. Is that just his fashion accessory of choice?

I have no reason to respond to Joe's post. There were lots of crazy photos of that day.  As you mentioned, I've repeated for the umpteenth time what I think are the criteria for being jailed. Maybe this guy did one or both of those things.  I don't know.  I'm not advocating for probation for him. 

[Torie]

Unless they hurt someone or damaged property, probation sounds fine for the rest.

Probation for trying to violently overthrow the government?

Didn't I say violent ones deserve jail time?  Yes, yes I did.

They were all violent. At best you could argue that this terrorist only intended to come in the Capitol to yell, scream, and threaten Congressmen into overturning the election while not being willing to throw any punches or pull any triggers himself, but considering how he knowingly and willingly went in there with people who were willing to go all the way, is that really a convincing argument? I think not. We all know what his intentions were.

Uh, no, they were not all violent.  Many were arrested after the fact just for being outside of the buildings but on the grounds. I'm in favor of punishing for what they did, not what any of us think their intentions were.  If they committed violence or damaged property, jail time.  

Yes, you already so opined Grumps, so no need to repeat when there is Joe Republic's rope thing (see above) twisting, twisting slowly in the wind for you to contend with. Is that just his fashion accessory of choice?

I have no reason to respond to Joe's post. There were lots of crazy photos of that day.  As you mentioned, I've repeated for the umpteenth time what I think are the criteria for being jailed. Maybe this guy did one or both of those things.  I don't know.  I'm not advocating for probation for him. 

Well let's try to finesse away your fixation with cells for a moment, and frame the issue another way. Do you think the guy running around with a rope in his hands is in and of itself an exacerbating fact?

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Unless they hurt someone or damaged property, probation sounds fine for the rest.

Probation for trying to violently overthrow the government?

Didn't I say violent ones deserve jail time?  Yes, yes I did.

They were all violent. At best you could argue that this terrorist only intended to come in the Capitol to yell, scream, and threaten Congressmen into overturning the election while not being willing to throw any punches or pull any triggers himself, but considering how he knowingly and willingly went in there with people who were willing to go all the way, is that really a convincing argument? I think not. We all know what his intentions were.

Uh, no, they were not all violent.  Many were arrested after the fact just for being outside of the buildings but on the grounds. I'm in favor of punishing for what they did, not what any of us think their intentions were.  If they committed violence or damaged property, jail time.  

Yes, you already so opined Grumps, so no need to repeat when there is Joe Republic's rope thing (see above) twisting, twisting slowly in the wind for you to contend with. Is that just his fashion accessory of choice?

I have no reason to respond to Joe's post. There were lots of crazy photos of that day.  As you mentioned, I've repeated for the umpteenth time what I think are the criteria for being jailed. Maybe this guy did one or both of those things.  I don't know.  I'm not advocating for probation for him. 

Well let's try to finesse away your fixation with cells for a moment, and frame the issue another way. Do you think the guy running around with a rope in his hands is in and of itself an exacerbating fact?

No doubt the Judge saw it as such, and that's why he's going to the cooler.

[Torie]

Unless they hurt someone or damaged property, probation sounds fine for the rest.

Probation for trying to violently overthrow the government?

Didn't I say violent ones deserve jail time?  Yes, yes I did.

They were all violent. At best you could argue that this terrorist only intended to come in the Capitol to yell, scream, and threaten Congressmen into overturning the election while not being willing to throw any punches or pull any triggers himself, but considering how he knowingly and willingly went in there with people who were willing to go all the way, is that really a convincing argument? I think not. We all know what his intentions were.

Uh, no, they were not all violent.  Many were arrested after the fact just for being outside of the buildings but on the grounds. I'm in favor of punishing for what they did, not what any of us think their intentions were.  If they committed violence or damaged property, jail time.  

Yes, you already so opined Grumps, so no need to repeat when there is Joe Republic's rope thing (see above) twisting, twisting slowly in the wind for you to contend with. Is that just his fashion accessory of choice?

I have no reason to respond to Joe's post. There were lots of crazy photos of that day.  As you mentioned, I've repeated for the umpteenth time what I think are the criteria for being jailed. Maybe this guy did one or both of those things.  I don't know.  I'm not advocating for probation for him. 

Well let's try to finesse away your fixation with cells for a moment, and frame the issue another way. Do you think the guy running around with a rope in his hands is in and of itself an exacerbating fact?

No doubt the Judge saw it as such, and that's why he's going to the cooler.

That is a very legalistic and evasive answer. I think I may have had a bad influence on you. Sad!

[Grumpier Than Uncle Joe]

Unless they hurt someone or damaged property, probation sounds fine for the rest.

Probation for trying to violently overthrow the government?

Didn't I say violent ones deserve jail time?  Yes, yes I did.

They were all violent. At best you could argue that this terrorist only intended to come in the Capitol to yell, scream, and threaten Congressmen into overturning the election while not being willing to throw any punches or pull any triggers himself, but considering how he knowingly and willingly went in there with people who were willing to go all the way, is that really a convincing argument? I think not. We all know what his intentions were.

Uh, no, they were not all violent.  Many were arrested after the fact just for being outside of the buildings but on the grounds. I'm in favor of punishing for what they did, not what any of us think their intentions were.  If they committed violence or damaged property, jail time.  

Yes, you already so opined Grumps, so no need to repeat when there is Joe Republic's rope thing (see above) twisting, twisting slowly in the wind for you to contend with. Is that just his fashion accessory of choice?

I have no reason to respond to Joe's post. There were lots of crazy photos of that day.  As you mentioned, I've repeated for the umpteenth time what I think are the criteria for being jailed. Maybe this guy did one or both of those things.  I don't know.  I'm not advocating for probation for him. 

Well let's try to finesse away your fixation with cells for a moment, and frame the issue another way. Do you think the guy running around with a rope in his hands is in and of itself an exacerbating fact?

No doubt the Judge saw it as such, and that's why he's going to the cooler.

That is a very legalistic and evasive answer. I think I may have had a bad influence on you. Sad!

Oh I've learned a lot from you and a couple of other friends outside of here. 

[Crumpets]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1417250273794301961

[Joe Biden 2024]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1417250273794301961

Oh dear God.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1417250273794301961

Who are the other four?

[emailking]

Who are the other four?

They only get to name 5, and Pelosi can veto. On the commission they would have had equal representation and no Democrat veto.

[Crumpets]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1417250273794301961

Oh dear God.

I do think there's a silver lining here, which is that nobody can claim this committee isn't bipartisan enough or full of RINOs. At least nobody who could have any sway over turnout or independents.

[Attorney General, Senator-Elect, & Former PPT Dwarven Dragon]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1417250273794301961

Oh dear God.

I do think there's a silver lining here, which is that nobody can claim this committee isn't bipartisan enough or full of RINOs. At least nobody who could have any sway over turnout or independents.

Actually it's a pretty simple claim to make - the committee has a 7-5-1 Democratic Majority (you can debate all day where to put Cheney so I just put her in her own category), and therefore because it is not evenly divided, it is not bipartisan by definition.

RINOs is indeed a lot tougher of a claim to make because Jordan is there. However, I will note that this committee voted 10-3 to certify the election (only Banks, Jordan, and Nehls opposed doing so).

[Joe Republic]

and therefore because it is not evenly divided, it is not bipartisan by definition.

Thank goodness nobody else uses that bizarre definition.

[pbrower2a]

Taking a rope into the Capitol suggests that one had some idea of using it. This is especially so if it is fashioned into a noose. It's certainly not going to be used as a lasso for controlling cattle!

[Obama-Biden Democrat]

Unless they hurt someone or damaged property, probation sounds fine for the rest.

Attempted robbery is still robbery. A attempted insurrection is still a insurrection, just because you are too stupid to carry it out successfully. The intent of this man and the MAGA cult was to violently overthrow the government.

[ProudModerate2]

https://twitter.com/Acyn/status/1417250273794301961

Oh dear God.

You know Jim Jordan is going to try to make it a clown show during the hearings.
I hate the SOB.

[Donerail]

Unless they hurt someone or damaged property, probation sounds fine for the rest.

Attempted robbery is still robbery. A attempted insurrection is still a insurrection, just because you are too stupid to carry it out successfully. The intent of this man and the MAGA cult was to violently overthrow the government.

But "insurrection" is not a crime. "Obstructing an official proceeding" is what he was convicted of. A minimal sentence for that seems appropriate, with harsher sentences for those who committed violence or property damage.

[Joe Republic]

Things are going very well and sane and normal and HOW DARE YOU for this particular defendant:

A Pennsylvania woman who allegedly stormed the Capitol and told a police officer to “bring Nancy Pelosi out here now… we want to hang that f—king bitch” has filed court documents claiming to be a divinely empowered entity immune from laws.

Pauline Bauer, a Pennsylvania pizzeria owner, is accused of multiple counts of violent entry, disruptive conduct, and obstruction of Congress after she allegedly broke into the Capitol on Jan. 6. Prosecutors allege that Bauer tried organizing buses to transport people to D.C. for a rally that preceded the riot, and that while in the Capitol rotunda she told police that she wanted to kill House Speaker Nancy Pelosi.

But in what experts describe as an inadvisable legal strategy, Bauer has demanded to represent herself in court, appeared to threaten a court clerk with prison time, and declared herself a “self-governed individual” with special legal privileges.

Bauer does not simply appear in court, she clarified during a June 11 proceeding via Zoom. “I am here by special divine appearance, a living soul,” she told a judge that day, while stating that she did not want an attorney.

“I do not stand under the law,” she said. “Under Genesis 1, God gave man dominion over the law.”

Things continue to go extremely well for Citizen Bauer of "Pennsylvania".


https://twitter.com/macfarlanenews/status/1417133137939816456?s=21

[pbrower2a]

Unless they hurt someone or damaged property, probation sounds fine for the rest.

Attempted robbery is still robbery. A attempted insurrection is still a insurrection, just because you are too stupid to carry it out successfully. The intent of this man and the MAGA cult was to violently overthrow the government.

Michigan treats armed robbery as severely as attempted first-degree murder: 25 to life, with no chance of parole for 25 years. The money is the least of the problem. Armed robbery is relatively rare, but it often results in death (which makes it first-degree murder). I endorse this legal "confusion". Every armed robbery is a potential murder.

All of the offenses boil down at the least to burglary (going into a place in which one is unauthorized and for which one has no compelling excuse, such as escaping a violent crime or a severe storm). Others are possible. If one has tools suitable for an assault of any kind (this even includes zip-cuffs) then the legal system can assume the worst. Getting access to classified data contrary to law is a major offense even if one's actions are otherwise non-violent.     

We have two compelling and competing issues: first that the deeds just are not done in our history, but second that we have no precedent for judging them. The closest analogue for a failed insurrection is something that happened almost a century ago: the Beer-Hall Putsch in the Weimar Republic. Across a century and an ocean.

There's a big difference: Trump is probably within five years of dying, and the instigator of the Beer-Hall Putsch had plenty of time in which to get his act together for a second effort to overthrow German democracy. Add to this, Hitler was a far better writer than Trump is... not that I encourage anyone to read Mein Kampf except as a historical document or to analyze it for warnings of a sociopathic leader.  (I prefer Churchill, for obvious reasons).

[Donerail]

All of the offenses boil down at the least to burglary (going into a place in which one is unauthorized and for which one has no compelling excuse, such as escaping a violent crime or a severe storm).

You are describing trespassing, not burglary. You do not burglarize a building merely through unauthorized entry. Burglary requires intent to commit a separate crime within.