Florida enacts transgender ban in sports

[President Johnson]

It's disgusting.

https://twitter.com/CNN/status/1399818297038848000

Florida became the eighth state this year to ban transgender girls and women in public secondary schools and colleges from participating on girls' and women's sports teams after its Republican governor signed the restrictive measure into law on Tuesday.

The action by Gov. Ron DeSantis comes during a record-breaking year for anti-trans bills in statehouses across the country and was taken on the first day of Pride Month, an annual celebration of the LGBTQ community that takes place throughout June, and 11 days before the five-year anniversary of the deadly Pulse nightclub shooting, in which 49 people were killed at a popular LGBTQ venue in Orlando.
LGBTQ advocates quickly denounced the move, with one group vowing to mount a legal challenge.

Under the law, public secondary school and college sports teams are required to be designated based on "biological sex," thus prohibiting trans women and girls from participating on women's athletic teams.

[...]

[Terlylane]

How is this disgusting? Are you sexist?

[Bootes Void]

Seems justified

[President Johnson]

How is this disgusting? Are you sexist?

Seriously? This is outright discrimination against transgender individuals. Also hilarious that the self proclaimed party of individual liberty sees the need to issue a regulatory law here. Regulations are for culture war issue are great while regulations to protect workers and consumers are bad? Lmao.

[Xing]

Florida Man gonna Florida Man.

[H.E. VOLODYMYR ZELENKSYY]

What does it say about trans men? Are they going to force them to compete with women, let them compete with men, or ban them altogether?

[courts]

How is this disgusting? Are you sexist?

most of the time i get where you are coming from but this just sounds like a non-sequitur

[President of the great nation of 🏳️‍⚧️]

How is this disgusting? Are you sexist?

Seriously? This is outright discrimination against transgender individuals.

Yes, but have you considered: Trans bad?

[SteveRogers]

How is this disgusting? Are you sexist?

most of the time i get where you are coming from but this just sounds like a non-sequitur

Where they are coming from is that this poster is a troll who has decided to play the role of “bizarro bronz with an evil mustache.”

[Horus]

Ten years ago I never expected this of all things to be a wedge issue. Strange times.

[Terlylane]

[Del Tachi]

School athletic programs are educational activities, so it's important that we maintain access to sports programming for trans students.  The debate is whether or not the state has a valid interest in protecting the competitiveness of girls' sport. 

[Joe Republic]

THE CONSERVATIVE DILEMMA

Banning athletes like this from competing against cisgender women:	Forcing athletes like this to compete against cisgender women:

[Alben Barkley]

What does it say about trans men? Are they going to force them to compete with women, let them compete with men, or ban them altogether?

Most trans men would still get wrecked in men’s sports but would also have a huge unfair advantage in women’s sports if they’re on testosterone.

Honestly there is no perfect solution to this issue as far as I can tell. But I tend to lean towards disadvantaging the lowest number of people, which means cis women (who vastly outnumber trans people, both men and women) should have their own leagues. Otherwise you’re effectively screwing over half the population in favor of a tiny minority. That just doesn’t seem right to me.

If they want to make a separate league for trans people or that’s just gender neutral for anyone who wants to compete in it, perhaps that could be a solution. But the insistence on allowing either biological males (who can’t have their advantages erased completely even with female hormones) or trans men (who would have a huge advantage with male hormones no different than any other performance-enhancing drug) to compete with cis women? It’s intuitively wrong to most people (just look at the Gallup poll lately that found an overwhelming majority against it), and for good reason. It defeats the entire point of separating the sexes for sports. AND it defeats the entire point of fair athletic competition.

The GOP knows they have a winning issue where the public is on their side here, which is why they continue to exploit it so much. If Democrats fall into the trap they are setting and defend what — to most people — is blatant insanity, that’s a win for them. Bad politics. Bad policy. Just bad all-around. Shut up about this crap and talk about the much more important issues where the public is on Dems’ side instead, like healthcare.

[Alben Barkley]

THE CONSERVATIVE DILEMMA

Banning athletes like this from competing against cisgender women:	Forcing athletes like this to compete against cisgender women:

Both almost certainly would have a major advantage over natal women. There is no dilemma if you don’t allow either to compete with them.

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

Ten years ago I never expected this of all things to be a wedge issue. Strange times.

2004 called, it wants its relevance of LGBT-related GOP wedge issues back.

[Real Texan Politics]

Likely R -> Likely R

[7,052,770]

It's a more complicated issue than people often give it credit for, and the best solution probably varies a lot by sport and level. However, it has to be pointed out that none of these states enacting bans this year are having any trans athletes at all, much less having a bunch of them dominate women's sports. It's a totally made up issue.

And before Republicans claim that that domination is about to happen if they don't do something, remember they've been saying this since Renee Richards started competing as a woman 45 (!) years ago.

[Person Man]

What does it say about trans men? Are they going to force them to compete with women, let them compete with men, or ban them altogether?

Most trans men would still get wrecked in men’s sports but would also have a huge unfair advantage in women’s sports if they’re on testosterone.

Honestly there is no perfect solution to this issue as far as I can tell. But I tend to lean towards disadvantaging the lowest number of people, which means cis women (who vastly outnumber trans people, both men and women) should have their own leagues. Otherwise you’re effectively screwing over half the population in favor of a tiny minority. That just doesn’t seem right to me.

If they want to make a separate league for trans people or that’s just gender neutral for anyone who wants to compete in it, perhaps that could be a solution. But the insistence on allowing either biological males (who can’t have their advantages erased completely even with female hormones) or trans men (who would have a huge advantage with male hormones no different than any other performance-enhancing drug) to compete with cis women? It’s intuitively wrong to most people (just look at the Gallup poll lately that found an overwhelming majority against it), and for good reason. It defeats the entire point of separating the sexes for sports. AND it defeats the entire point of fair athletic competition.

The GOP knows they have a winning issue where the public is on their side here, which is why they continue to exploit it so much. If Democrats fall into the trap they are setting and defend what — to most people — is blatant insanity, that’s a win for them. Bad politics. Bad policy. Just bad all-around. Shut up about this crap and talk about the much more important issues where the public is on Dems’ side instead, like healthcare.

This is a good issue to triangulate on for the time being. The only upside risk is whether Republicans actually know when to stop. Should it be illegal to be transgendered at all? Should conversion therapy be the only legal treatment for gender dysmorphia or at least the only one where assistance would be available? At least for minors? Personally I don’t really know how to help people in this predicament. Either decision we make could ruin lives.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

What does it say about trans men? Are they going to force them to compete with women, let them compete with men, or ban them altogether?

Most trans men would still get wrecked in men’s sports but would also have a huge unfair advantage in women’s sports if they’re on testosterone.

Honestly there is no perfect solution to this issue as far as I can tell. But I tend to lean towards disadvantaging the lowest number of people, which means cis women (who vastly outnumber trans people, both men and women) should have their own leagues. Otherwise you’re effectively screwing over half the population in favor of a tiny minority. That just doesn’t seem right to me.

If they want to make a separate league for trans people or that’s just gender neutral for anyone who wants to compete in it, perhaps that could be a solution. But the insistence on allowing either biological males (who can’t have their advantages erased completely even with female hormones) or trans men (who would have a huge advantage with male hormones no different than any other performance-enhancing drug) to compete with cis women? It’s intuitively wrong to most people (just look at the Gallup poll lately that found an overwhelming majority against it), and for good reason. It defeats the entire point of separating the sexes for sports. AND it defeats the entire point of fair athletic competition.

The GOP knows they have a winning issue where the public is on their side here, which is why they continue to exploit it so much. If Democrats fall into the trap they are setting and defend what — to most people — is blatant insanity, that’s a win for them. Bad politics. Bad policy. Just bad all-around. Shut up about this crap and talk about the much more important issues where the public is on Dems’ side instead, like healthcare.

While I agree that if a clear unfair advantage exists than the laws should cover that, I think the evidence is pretty weak. While it's true that transwomen do have some advantages that aren't entirely erased by hormonal treatment, I've also heard a compelling case this is more than cancelled out by some specific disadvantages to them as well because of such treatment. And consider that the Olympics has allowed trans athletes to compete in their identified gender category since 2004 and yet not a single trans athlete has ever won a medal.

For the most part I think this should be addressed case by case (like obviously some that are beginning transition and still have testosterone levels well beyond that of any cis woman shouldn't be allowed to compete as women, a similar rule to what the Olympics has), but the fact is the scenario that conservatives and TERFs (referring to actual TERFs here and not using the term as a generic slur like so many woke morons do) where transwomen end up dominating all sports and ciswomen are completely locked out hasn't come even remotely close to happening.

[HisGrace]

Things like this should be decided on a case by case basis since there are so many variables to consider, age, what sport it is, what particular drugs a person is on. This is as bad as making a blanket bill saying all transwomen have to be allowed in women's sports. The state legislature should really just stay out of it and let the schools figure it out themselves.

[The Undefeatable Debbie Stabenow]

THE CONSERVATIVE DILEMMA

Banning athletes like this from competing against cisgender women:	Forcing athletes like this to compete against cisgender women:

Similarly, under the GOP's prized bathroom bills, the man on the right would be forced to use women's restrooms. The woman on the left is supposedly making other women feel unsafe, but they would feel totally comfortable sharing a bathroom with the guy? Just goes to show how shallowly they think these issues through.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

It's a more complicated issue than people often give it credit for, and the best solution probably varies a lot by sport and level. However, it has to be pointed out that none of these states enacting bans this year are having any trans athletes at all, much less having a bunch of them dominate women's sports. It's a totally made up issue.

And before Republicans claim that that domination is about to happen if they don't do something, remember they've been saying this since Renee Richards started competing as a woman 45 (!) years ago.

Fun fact: Renee Richards was outed in 1976 by reporter Richard Carlson, father of Tucker Carlson. (An example of how the opportunistic bigot doesn't fall far from the tree, I guess.)

I think you're absolutely right when you say it's "a more complicated issue than people often give it credit for"; at this same time, I think much of the furor is a tempest in a teapot brewed by Republicans purely for political advantage. We're mostly talking about kids playing sports.

And yes, when it comes to sports, genetics can provide an advantage. And when we get past the mountains Republicans are making from molehills, that's a part of what this is about for conservatives. Not gender, or sexual identity, but "your genetics give you an advantage". I cannot help but wonder, if Republicans are not stopped here, where will they go next? Will other athletes be banned from unfairly competing against the presumed ideal genes of the GOP's sons and daughters due to some deemed  unfair "genetic advantage"? (And what color would the skin of those so banned be likely be?)

Yes, that's a pure hypothetical, but does it really seem impossible from a bunch of bigots who want official child genital inspectors? But that would still be no real solution - genetic chimerism exists in humans (at unknown frequency), and has already impacted sports in at least one documented instance going back to the 1960s. As another example, another well-known transgender woman from the same timeframe as Renee Richards, Bond girl Caroline Cossey, has XXXY chromosomes.

It is a complex issue, but the Republican approach is near orthogonal to both reality and the interests of the children involved; for them, this is pure political opportunism (and a chance to flex their bigotry and xenophobia).

[Ferguson97]

It's sort of hilarious to watch Republicans pretend to care about girls' sports after decades of trying to scale back Title IX.

Imagine unironically posting a South Park video as an argument

Both almost certainly would have a major advantage over natal women. There is no dilemma if you don’t allow either to compete with them.

So what, you want both trans men and trans women to compete in men's sports?

[Terlylane]

It's sort of hilarious to watch Republicans pretend to care about girls' sports after decades of trying to scale back Title IX.




Imagine unironically posting a South Park video as an argument

Both almost certainly would have a major advantage over natal women. There is no dilemma if you don’t allow either to compete with them.

So what, you want both trans men and trans women to compete in men's sports?

Title IX does not help women.