Crisis in Israel/Palestine

[Velasco]

The ongoing events in Israel/Palestine are too important, so in case anyone wants to comment in a peaceful and civil way, I start this thread

It's the anniversary of the Nakba and writer Mariam Barghouti is one of the main voices of the Palestinian resistance, a representative of "a new generation of Palestinians not letting different media narratives reshape their struggle and speaking openly of settler colonialism, occupation and apartheid" (Middle East Eye)

https://twitter.com/MariamBarghouti/status/1393604688977842177?s=19

Every family has a story to tell

https://twitter.com/nooranhamdan/status/1393511090546413573?s=19

[Meclazine for Israel]

I think it's important to maintain a perspective on this issue.

Hamas using Civilians as Shields

Schools, Hospitals and Mosques in Gaza

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8bwiour-iM

Who fires rockets indiscriminately at another country from schools and hospitals?

Where did the poorest people in the world get 2,600 rockets from?

That is called terrorism.

Israeli's have the right to remove all threats to their nation and defend themselves accordingly.

Israel have shown great constraint with removing these threats whilst the Palestinians have no real plan other than to terrorise Israel whilst simultaneously hoping that the leftist media helps them out with some sympathetic stories.

[Velasco]

Well, there's much to say about that claim. As someone posted in the other thread, it's the usual pretext used by the IDF to bomb eesidential areas and civil infraestructure

Yet another example. In case there were Hamas operatives in the building below, surely they fled with the residents and workers evacuated.  On the one hand, it's hard to believe Al Jazeera journalists were acting as "human shields"; on the other hand, the airstrike is completely ineffecive to prevent rocket launching. So the logical conclusion is that the only purpose of the IDF is destroying civil infrastructure and workplaces, with the result that dozens of Gazan families are now homeless

https://twitter.com/StefanieDekker/status/1393541536755986445?s=19

[dead0man]

Well, there's much to say about that claim. As someone posted in the other thread, it's the usual pretext used by the IDF to bomb eesidential areas and civil infraestructure

Yet another example. In case there were Hamas operatives in the building below, surely they fled with the residents and workers evacuated.  On the one hand, it's hard to believe Al Jazeera journalists were acting as "human shields"; on the other hand, the airstrike is completely ineffecive to prevent rocket launching. So the logical conclusion is that the only purpose of the IDF is destroying civil infrastructure and workplaces, with the result that dozens of Gazan families are now homeless

https://twitter.com/StefanieDekker/status/1393541536755986445?s=19

an hour is more than enough time to remove media equipment, but nowhere near long enough to remove a weapons cache or re-dig a tunnel entrance.

[Meclazine for Israel]

Well, there's much to say about that claim. As someone posted in the other thread, it's the usual pretext used by the IDF....

OK, let's say you are right. The question to you specifically is this.

Where did the Palestinian find 2,600 rockets?

Some of the most impoverished people seeking sympathy from the outside world managed to scrounge together 10 million dollars to make rockets.

[Ancestral Republican]

Thank you Israel. Defender of peace and democracy in the Middle East.

https://twitter.com/hamada_pal2020/status/1393728118188294149

[Velasco]

Well, there's much to say about that claim. As someone posted in the other thread, it's the usual pretext used by the IDF....

OK, let's say you are right. The question to you specifically is this.

Where did the Palestinian find 2,600 rockets?

Some of the most impoverished people seeking sympathy from the outside world managed to scrounge together 10 million dollars to make rockets.

I hope you realize that, while Gaza is a heavily impoverished territory, Hamas is an autonomous organization with its own financial resources. Let alone the rockets deployed by Hamas are extremely cheap and primitive. Don't make the mistake to believe that Hamas is Gaza or that organization works on behalf of Gazans,  let alone the Palestinian people. Hamas works for its own interests and actually excercises a despotic rule in Gaza and damages the Palestinians to an extent that Hamas is often the best ally of Israeli authorities, either voluntary or involuntary.  If you use the logic, it's not hard to reach the conclusion that Netanyahu triggered this escalation in East Jerusalem to his own survival and Hamas is being instrumental (as usual).

 On the other hand, your previous claim that Palestinians terrorize Israel is false and offensive: Hamas is not Palestine

an hour is more than enough time to remove media equipment, but nowhere near long enough to remove a weapons cache or re-dig a tunnel entrance.

You miss the point the destruction of civil infraestructure to little or none military advantage is a war crime. Neither the existence of weapons or tunnel entrances are proven facts, nor they represent a military advantage that justifies the destruction of homes and workplaces. It would be ridiculous to claim Hamas is launching rockets from AP or Al Jazeera HQs

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

Well, there's much to say about that claim. As someone posted in the other thread, it's the usual pretext used by the IDF....

OK, let's say you are right. The question to you specifically is this.

Where did the Palestinian find 2,600 rockets?

Some of the most impoverished people seeking sympathy from the outside world managed to scrounge together 10 million dollars to make rockets.

I hope you realize that, while Gaza is a heavily impoverished trrritory, Hamas is an autonomous organization with its own financial resources. Let alone the rockets deployed by Hamas are extremely cheap and primitive. Don't make the mistake to believe that Hamas is Gaza or that organization works on behalf of Gazans,  let alone the Palestinian people. Hamas works for its own interests and actually excercises a drdpotic rule im Gaza and damages the Palestinians to an extent that Hamas is often the best ally of Israeli authorities,  voluntary or involuntary.  If you use the logic  it's not hard to reach the vonclusion that Netanyahu triggered this escalation in East Jerusalem to his own survival and Hamas is being instrumental (as usual).

 On the other hand, your previous claim that Palestinians terrorize Israel is false and offensive: Hamas is not Palestine

an hour is more than enough time to remove media equipment, but nowhere near long enough to remove a weapons cache or re-dig a tunnel entrance.

You miss the point the destruction of civil infraestructure to little or none military advantage is a war crime. Neither the existence of weapons or tunnel entrances are proven facts, nor they represent a military advantage that justifies the destruction of homes and workplaces. It would be ridiculous to claim Hamas is launching rockets from AP or Al Jazeera HQs

Likud and Hamas are best frenemies.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

What is hard to believe about Hamas intentionally seeking to use journalists as a shield?  If IDF hits them, the press is motivated to criticize Israel, just as we have seen.

[Velasco]

What is hard to believe about Hamas intentionally seeking to use journalists as a shield?  If IDF hits them, the press is motivated to criticize Israel, just as we have seen.

That's worthless mental gymnastics. You are assuming that journalists are morons or have an interest in being used as tools of Hamas

Benny Gantz, who happens to be an actual moron, stated clearly what is the purpose of the offensives in Gsza. "We have sent entire sections of Gaza right back to the Middle Ages"

As long as the misnamend 'status quo' prolongs and the rulers of Israel radicalize, the true intentions of that oppresive regime become more evident

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

What is hard to believe about Hamas intentionally seeking to use journalists as a shield?  If IDF hits them, the press is motivated to criticize Israel, just as we have seen.

The Associated Press pushes back on Israel's claim about Gaza media building, saying they had 'no indication Hamas was in the building'

The Israeli Defense Forces released a statement saying the high-rise was being used by Hamas military intelligence, but AP said they had "no indication" Hamas operated from the building.

"We have called on the Israeli government to put forward the evidence," AP President and CEO Gary Pruitt said in a statement provided to Insider. "AP's bureau has been in this building for 15 years. We have had no indication Hamas was in the building or active in the building. This is something we actively check to the best of our ability. We would never knowingly put our journalists at risk."

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

What is hard to believe about Hamas intentionally seeking to use journalists as a shield?  If IDF hits them, the press is motivated to criticize Israel, just as we have seen.

That's worthless mental gymnastics. You are assuming that journalists are morons or have an interest in being used as tools of Hamas

Benny Gantz, who happens to be an actual moron, stated clearly what is the purpose of the offensives in Gsza. "We have sent entire sections of Gaza right back to the Middle Ages"

As long as the misnamend 'status quo' prolongs and the rulers of Israel radicalize, the true intentions of that oppresive regime become more evident

So your belief is that IDF hit this building specifically, why?  So it could get bad press?

I think it's much easier to believe that Hamas started operating from there recently, and the media orgs didn't know, or thought staying in that location was worth it for the time being for access reasons.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

To answer President's Johnson's question from the other thread about where the rockets of Hamas and other Gaza militant's come from, here's Wikipedia:

The utility of the Qassam rocket design is assumed to be ease and speed of manufacture, using common tools and components. To this end, the rockets are propelled by a solid mixture of sugar and potassium nitrate, a common fertilizer. The warhead is filled with smuggled or scavenged TNT and urea nitrate, another common fertilizer. The warhead's explosive material is similar to the civilian explosive ammonite.

The rocket consists of a steel cylinder, containing a rectangular block of the propellant. A steel plate which forms and supports the nozzles is then spot-welded to the base of the cylinder. The warhead consists of a simple metal shell surrounding the explosives, and is triggered by a fuse constructed using a simple firearm cartridge, a spring and a nail.

While early designs used a single nozzle which screwed into the base, later rockets use a seven-nozzle design, with the nozzles drilled directly into the rocket baseplate. This alteration both increases the tolerance of the rocket to small nozzle design defects, and makes manufacture easier by allowing the use of a drill rather than a lathe during manufacture due to the smaller nozzle size. However, due to the cone shape of each of the 7 nozzles, the interior of each nozzle requires the use of a lathe, as it would otherwise be cylindrical rather than conical (see rocket engine nozzle). Unlike many other rockets, the nozzles are not canted, which means the rocket does not spin about its longitudinal axis during flight. While this results in a significant decrease in accuracy, it greatly simplifies rocket manufacture and the launch systems required.

They cannot be aimed, making their use by Hamas a weapon of indiscriminate terror, and thus a war crime.

[Velasco]

So your belief is that IDF hit this building specifically, why?  So it could get bad press?

I think it's much easier to believe that Hamas started operating from there recently, and the media orgs didn't know, or thought staying in that location was worth it for the time being for access reasons.

My belief is that the IDF is seeking the destruction of civil infraestructure. Rather than targeting this building specifically, it's part of the usual practices in these offensives.  Benny Gantz was crystal clear,  I think.

I suggest you to read how these rockets are crafted, their portability, etcetera. Then tell me what sense does it make striking one building with press HQs or another. It's not easy Ihe IDF is going to get good press from correspondents in Gaza, because journalists there are first-hand witnesses of the horror. Rather, it's in the interest of the IDF to make the work of journalists more difficult.  Anyway the main goal of this destruction is to further impoverish Gaza and create terror

[Donerail]

So your belief is that IDF hit this building specifically, why?  So it could get bad press?

I think it's much easier to believe that Hamas started operating from there recently, and the media orgs didn't know, or thought staying in that location was worth it for the time being for access reasons.

My belief is that the UDF is seeking the destruction of civil infraestructure. Rather than targeting this building specifically, it's part of the usual practices in these offensives.  Benny Gantz was crystal clear,  I think.

Ohad Hemo, who covers Palestinian issues for Israel's Channel 12 TV news channel, has speculated that the IDF has been targeting high-rise buildings specifically because they are home to upper-middle class residents of Gaza, who could then pressure Hamas to agree to a ceasefire. The al-Jazeera/AP building was home to both offices and residences.

[Velasco]

Ohad Hemo, who covers Palestinian issues for Israel's Channel 12 TV news channel, has speculated that the IDF has been targeting high-rise buildings specifically because they are home to upper-middle s residents of Gaza, who could then pressure Hamas to agree to a ceasefire. The al-Jazeera/AP building was home to both offices and residences.
[anycroom with morethan onemilitantcould becdescribedas an "intelligencemeetingroom"http:///quote]

It's an interesting speculation,  because that journalist concurs the IDF is not seeking to destroy Hamas "intelligence", but rather to strike the Gazans that don't live in extreme poverty.  So someone in Israel's TV openly speculates in the assumption Israel is committing war crimes. I guess that's not the narrative in national TV and mainstream media (rather, a national TV anchor allegedly incited to violence against Arabs)

[Velasco]

Read what Gideon Levy says about politics in Israel.  There is no peace camp anymore.  Doves are dead and buried

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-in-israel-nobody-opposes-the-war-1.9811686

 There’s no issue that all (Jewish) Israelis agree on more than the launching of a war. Almost a week has passed and no one is opposing this horrific war, not even center-left leaders Yair Lapid, Merav Michaeli and Nitzan Horowitz.

They attack Benjamin Netanyahu – you don’t have to be brave to do that – they express sorrow over our suffering, but not a word about this criminal war of choice whose death toll and minuscule advantage it awards Israel is yet to be determined. Yet again, this is proof that there’s no peace camp in Israel, not even a tiny hut.  

If you need further evidence about the nature of that 'progressive' nation, the 'shining light of the Middle East' (in fact a brutalized and dystopian society), come in and read please

 The bombing of the helpless favela of Gaza is “proof that our air force is the best in the world,”  

Ultimately Jewish Israelis are being kept in ignorance

  Israelis don’t have a clue about what’s happening in Gaza, not a notion of what the military is doing in their name. That’s why they’re clamoring for more, why they’re so certain of the justice of their cause. 

[Meclazine for Israel]

Well, there's much to say about that claim. As someone posted in the other thread, it's the usual pretext used by the IDF....

OK, let's say you are right. The question to you specifically is this.

Where did the Palestinian find 2,600 rockets?

Some of the most impoverished people seeking sympathy from the outside world managed to scrounge together 10 million dollars to make rockets.

I hope you realize that, while Gaza is a heavily impoverished territory, Hamas is an autonomous organization with its own financial resources. Let alone the rockets deployed by Hamas are extremely cheap and primitive. Don't make the mistake to believe that Hamas is Gaza or that organization works on behalf of Gazans,  let alone the Palestinian people. Hamas works for its own interests and actually excercises a despotic rule in Gaza and damages the Palestinians to an extent that Hamas is often the best ally of Israeli authorities, either voluntary or involuntary.  If you use the logic, it's not hard to reach the conclusion that Netanyahu triggered this escalation in East Jerusalem to his own survival and Hamas is being instrumental (as usual).

OK, fair description. But a few questions arise from your analysis.

If people in Gaza don't bomb Israel, where do the Hamas terrorists live? Egypt?

Where are Hamas getting 2,600 rockets from? Egypt?

Is this state sponsored terrorism from Egypt?

The other alternative is Iran. You want people to follow this?

And with a 0.3% strike rate for casualties, probably less with the Iron Dome, why would Hamas run an indiscriminate missile barrage on Israel when 95% of the Western world are against Islamic terrorism.

As the world develops, these radical ideologies are simply losing traction rapidly.

People are not emigrating from Norway to Syria because it is a better lifestyle. Quite the opposite is true.

[Velasco]

Police brutality funded by the US

https://twitter.com/dylanotes/status/1393625488602566656?s=19

[CumbrianLefty]

And the Biden administration reverting to type on this is also dispiriting as hell.

[America Needs R'hllor]

Lemme just say that the IDF's actions are incredibly surgical, much more than US or European airstrikes. They engineer strikes to take down one building without harming others around it, concentrate on military targets like tunnels, try to warn civilians to evacuate when needed which definitely hurts the operational value and even developed special small missiles that shake a home without doing damage as a warning. Israel's actions in Jerusalem and the WB and the way this whole thing started are bad but I don't see how we're in the wrong in Gaza.

The overall blame is on both sides for not striving for a solution that stops the bloodshed. But in the right here right now there's nothing we can really do- you either do nothing as terrorists target your citizens with missiles from a dense population center or you retaliate and some civilians inevitably die. I grieve for every innocent life lost in this unnecessary conflict, but people who use them to say that Israel should just sit on our hands and not strike back are nothing more than bad faith populists. I have a lot more to discuss with, say, Bernie Sanders than with people who don't think I have the right to defend my life.

By the way, apologies if I don't trust the international media's intelligence operation. Kinda suspicious after it was discovered UNRA facilities were hiding extensive ammunition.

[Velasco]

Our Queen AOC has spoken, apparently to the displeasure of the Israeli 'centre-left'

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1393673695433043976?s=19

[Velasco]

Collusion between settlers and police

https://twitter.com/972mag/status/1393899035602284551?s=19

[Chunk Yogurt for President!]

Our Queen AOC has spoken

Don't be a simp.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

So your belief is that IDF hit this building specifically, why?  So it could get bad press?

I think it's much easier to believe that Hamas started operating from there recently, and the media orgs didn't know, or thought staying in that location was worth it for the time being for access reasons.

My belief is that the UDF is seeking the destruction of civil infraestructure. Rather than targeting this building specifically, it's part of the usual practices in these offensives.  Benny Gantz was crystal clear,  I think.

Ohad Hemo, who covers Palestinian issues for Israel's Channel 12 TV news channel, has speculated that the IDF has been targeting high-rise buildings specifically because they are home to upper-middle class residents of Gaza, who could then pressure Hamas to agree to a ceasefire. The al-Jazeera/AP building was home to both offices and residences.

If that's what the IDF are doing, that's pretty much the definition of terrorism. 

I think this whole spate of ugly, tragic violence serves to damage the reputation of the Israeli government, military, and by extension the nation of Israel.

Hamas are terrorists and war criminals - firing unguided rockets into civilian areas is both, I think. When the response of the Israeli government and military is to do the same thing back to Gaza, only with more power and precision, that puts the Israeli government and military on the same level as Hamas. And they're also punching down. All while claiming to be the good guys as a representative democracy.