Crisis in Israel/Palestine

[GeneralMacArthur]

Let's talk about Israel

The fact that this is even a debate on the left and center is mind boggling.

In the Gaza conflict: 11 civilians killed and 114 wounded vs. 217 civilians killed and 1,500+ wounded

In the West Bank: 2 soldiers wounded vs. 17 civilians killed and 500+ wounded

Israel's military is committing acts of terror on the Palestinian people.

Having more people die (because your military is incompetent) doesn't make you the good guys.

[dead0man]

The fact that this is even a debate on the left and center is mind boggling.

In the Gaza conflict: 11 civilians killed and 114 wounded vs. 217 civilians killed and 1,500+ wounded

In the West Bank: 2 soldiers wounded vs. 17 civilians killed and 500+ wounded

Israel's military is committing acts of terror on the Palestinian people.

so if more Jewish civilians died it wouldn't be terrorism?  What a strange take.

[Pyro]

This seems pretty significant. It is a move that's rather uncharacteristic of establishment Democrats.

https://twitter.com/AlexWardVox/status/1394421596161560580

Never mind.

https://twitter.com/JacobMagid/status/1394695212660928516

[President Punxsutawney Phil]

The very fact this was mulled is really saying something...

[GeneralMacArthur]

The fact that this is even a debate on the left and center is mind boggling.

In the Gaza conflict: 11 civilians killed and 114 wounded vs. 217 civilians killed and 1,500+ wounded

In the West Bank: 2 soldiers wounded vs. 17 civilians killed and 500+ wounded

Israel's military is committing acts of terror on the Palestinian people.

so if more Jewish civilians died it wouldn't be terrorism?  What a strange take.

The 1993 WTC Bombing only killed six people, even though Ramzi Yousef intended to kill hundreds of thousands, had his plan of causing the tower to fall down sideways and crush all of NYC up to Canal Street succeeded.  Since he only killed six people, it's not a terrorist attack.  And had America killed seven terrorists in retaliation, that would make America the real terrorists.

[GALeftist]

The fact that this is even a debate on the left and center is mind boggling.

In the Gaza conflict: 11 civilians killed and 114 wounded vs. 217 civilians killed and 1,500+ wounded

In the West Bank: 2 soldiers wounded vs. 17 civilians killed and 500+ wounded

Israel's military is committing acts of terror on the Palestinian people.

so if more Jewish civilians died it wouldn't be terrorism?  What a strange take.

The 1993 WTC Bombing only killed six people, even though Ramzi Yousef intended to kill hundreds of thousands, had his plan of causing the tower to fall down sideways and crush all of NYC up to Canal Street succeeded.  Since he only killed six people, it's not a terrorist attack.  And had America killed seven terrorists in retaliation, that would make America the real terrorists.

News flash: not every Palestinian is a terrorist. If America killed 120 innocent people in response to the WTC bombing, yeah, that'd be bad.

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The fact that this is even a debate on the left and center is mind boggling.

In the Gaza conflict: 11 civilians killed and 114 wounded vs. 217 civilians killed and 1,500+ wounded

In the West Bank: 2 soldiers wounded vs. 17 civilians killed and 500+ wounded

Israel's military is committing acts of terror on the Palestinian people.

so if more Jewish civilians died it wouldn't be terrorism?  What a strange take.

The 1993 WTC Bombing only killed six people, even though Ramzi Yousef intended to kill hundreds of thousands, had his plan of causing the tower to fall down sideways and crush all of NYC up to Canal Street succeeded.  Since he only killed six people, it's not a terrorist attack.  And had America killed seven terrorists in retaliation, that would make America the real terrorists.

News flash: not every Palestinian is a terrorist. If America killed 120 innocent people in response to the WTC bombing, yeah, that'd be bad.

As if only 120.

[CumbrianLefty]

Yes, the anti-Israeli side would cause more death and mayhem if they could.

But simply saying that doesn't get us very far.

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

https://twitter.com/AP/status/1395019794487906311

[Silent Hunter]

The blood lust on these dust ups generally wains after 3 weeks.

So we should have a cease fire next week.

Both sides eventually run out of ammo.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Yes, the anti-Israeli side would cause more death and mayhem if they could.

But simply saying that doesn't get us very far.

The official governing organization of Palestine could always not fire rockets into Israel to try and kill civilians, that would get us pretty far.  Hamas launches dozens, if not hundreds, of rocket attacks every single year, while this is the first Israeli attack in 3 years.  The problem is that according to polling, 80% of Palestinians support Hamas' rocket attacks on Israel, so they're unlikely to stop anytime soon.  Which, incidentally, is a real knock on the "you can't blame the Palestinian people for the actions of Hamas" excuse.

Israel could offer to spend 1% of its GDP every year, for ten years, building homes in Palestine for those who lost them in the Nakba, if Palestine agrees to forever drop all demands related to the Right of Return.  That would amount to currently $4B/year, and probably average out to around $5B/year if Israel continues its current rate of economic growth.  If you guess $100,000 per house for a large amount of houses built at scale, you're talking 40, 50 thousand a year.  In ten years Israel could probably build thriving communities in the Palestinian territories for the 700,000 displaced Palestinians.  Right of Return was the main issue Palestine chose as the blocker to a two-state solution in the late 90s, so without that excuse, perhaps they could actually find peace (if PLO actually has any interest in peace).

Problem is that Israel already tried this after the Six Day War and Palestine objected to it.  Israel took refugees in Palestine, gave them money and building materials, and helped them build infrastructure and community buildings/services to create new towns and villages in Palestine -- much better than the ones they were forced out of, which were by and large rural agricultural villages with antiquated dwellings and no infrastructure whatsoever.  The PLO was really upset about this because it undermined their Right of Return demand, and demanded that Israel stop.

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

https://twitter.com/AP/status/1395044268163715074

[Meclazine for Israel]

Looks like Beirut might be looking for a barny.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-05-20/israel-fires-at-lebanese-targets/100151034

[sting in the rafters]

The fact that this is even a debate on the left and center is mind boggling.

In the Gaza conflict: 11 civilians killed and 114 wounded vs. 217 civilians killed and 1,500+ wounded

In the West Bank: 2 soldiers wounded vs. 17 civilians killed and 500+ wounded

Israel's military is committing acts of terror on the Palestinian people.

so if more Jewish civilians died it wouldn't be terrorism?  What a strange take.

The 1993 WTC Bombing only killed six people, even though Ramzi Yousef intended to kill hundreds of thousands, had his plan of causing the tower to fall down sideways and crush all of NYC up to Canal Street succeeded.  Since he only killed six people, it's not a terrorist attack.  And had America killed seven terrorists in retaliation, that would make America the real terrorists.

News flash: not every Palestinian is a terrorist. If America killed 120 innocent people in response to the WTC bombing, yeah, that'd be bad.

Not only this, but does not every Israel airstrike intensify Palestinian recruiting? If you're a young guy living in Gaza/the West Bank and a bombing killed your uncle or your sister, you're gonna be consumed by revenge.


The fact both sides have a good amount of figures who belong at the Hague isn't a justification for Israel to repeatedly violate international law. This situation does prove my despotic fantasy of yeeting a fifth of my neighborhood into the river is unsustainable in real life.

Yes, the anti-Israeli side would cause more death and mayhem if they could.

But simply saying that doesn't get us very far.

80% of Palestinians support Hamas' rocket attacks on Israel, so they're unlikely to stop anytime soon.  Which, incidentally, is a real knock on the "you can't blame the Palestinian people for the actions of Hamas" excuse.

At the same time, only only 35-40% (though a plurality) of Palestinians believe an armed struggle is the best solution to the conflict. Won't the current Israeli policy of expanding settlements and indiscriminate airstrikes only increase support for Hamas?

[○∙◄☻¥tπ[╪AV┼cVê└]

The blood lust on these dust ups generally wains after 3 weeks.

So we should have a cease fire next week.

Both sides eventually run out of ammo.

The US just sold Israel some more weapons.

[Sir Mohamed]

Tbh, I don't see any solution other than a fragile and temporary cease fire before both the Netanyahu govt and Hamas aren't replaced by sane leadership. I'm skeptical both of these even have the real will for long term peace and stability because each of them thinks it benefits their own domestic position to keep tensions up. Of course that's happening on the backs of innocent civilians on both sides.

[It’s so Joever]

Can we just be honest and say that the real reason we are taking Israel’s side is because it benefits us? Allying with a high tech, powerful country with a natural tilt against China (our biggest rival) makes sense.

I don’t mind us doing that, I don’t mind our weapon sales to foreign countries for our gain, but do we really have to pretend Bloody Bibi has some fictional moral high ground here?

I get why politicians can’t say it outright, but none of that applies to any Atlas poster.

If you really still think Israel has some high ground here despite putting the entire World at greater risk by bombing Covid testing sites...I pity you and those near you.

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

https://twitter.com/AOC/status/1395054704086892545

[GALeftist]

Yes, the anti-Israeli side would cause more death and mayhem if they could.

But simply saying that doesn't get us very far.

The official governing organization of Palestine could always not fire rockets into Israel to try and kill civilians, that would get us pretty far.  Hamas launches dozens, if not hundreds, of rocket attacks every single year, while this is the first Israeli attack in 3 years.  The problem is that according to polling, 80% of Palestinians support Hamas' rocket attacks on Israel, so they're unlikely to stop anytime soon.  Which, incidentally, is a real knock on the "you can't blame the Palestinian people for the actions of Hamas" excuse.

Israel could offer to spend 1% of its GDP every year, for ten years, building homes in Palestine for those who lost them in the Nakba, if Palestine agrees to forever drop all demands related to the Right of Return.  That would amount to currently $4B/year, and probably average out to around $5B/year if Israel continues its current rate of economic growth.  If you guess $100,000 per house for a large amount of houses built at scale, you're talking 40, 50 thousand a year.  In ten years Israel could probably build thriving communities in the Palestinian territories for the 700,000 displaced Palestinians.  Right of Return was the main issue Palestine chose as the blocker to a two-state solution in the late 90s, so without that excuse, perhaps they could actually find peace (if PLO actually has any interest in peace).

Problem is that Israel already tried this after the Six Day War and Palestine objected to it.  Israel took refugees in Palestine, gave them money and building materials, and helped them build infrastructure and community buildings/services to create new towns and villages in Palestine -- much better than the ones they were forced out of, which were by and large rural agricultural villages with antiquated dwellings and no infrastructure whatsoever.  The PLO was really upset about this because it undermined their Right of Return demand, and demanded that Israel stop.

Why is it that you're so against the right of return, dude? Why should it be a thing for Jewish people but not Palestinians?

[GeneralMacArthur]

Can we just be honest and say that the real reason we are taking Israel’s side is because it benefits us? Allying with a high tech, powerful country with a natural tilt against China (our biggest rival) makes sense.

I don’t mind us doing that, I don’t mind our weapon sales to foreign countries for our gain, but do we really have to pretend Bloody Bibi has some fictional moral high ground here?

I get why politicians can’t say it outright, but none of that applies to any Atlas poster.

If you really still think Israel has some high ground here despite putting the entire World at greater risk by bombing Covid testing sites...I pity you and those near you.

This is easy for you to say not living in Israel.

Imagine having to wake up every night to sirens, and get a text on your phone that missiles are inbound to your location.  Having to wake up your family quickly and rush them to the nearest bomb shelter.  As you sleepily hurry down the street in your bare feet in the middle of the night you look up and see a criss-cross of gold sparks in the sky as hundreds of Palestinian missiles are intercepted by the Iron Dome, missiles that were intended to destroy your city.  And you know that despite the IDF's best efforts, some of the missiles will get through, maybe falling on your house, your school, your hospital, your COVID testing lab.

Every night.  For over a week now it's been happening.  It's reached the point where you don't even bother to sleep anymore because you just expect to be woken up.  You just lie awake waiting for the inevitable sirens, thinking about what you'd do if your house was blown up.

But even during the day you're not safe.  Every time you get on a bus or a train you hope there's not a Hamas suicide bomber.  Every time you send your children off to school you hope there's not a kidnapping.  Every time you cross over a bridge you hope Hamas hasn't put a bomb underneath it.  This is your daily life.



Israel didn't start this conflict.  Palestine started it.  Israel didn't do anything to Palestine.  All the riots and clashes were Israeli police vs. Israeli Arabs.  Hamas chose to get involved.  They made the choice to fire thousands of rockets into Israel.  They made the choice to try and murder thousands of Israeli civilians.

Israel also didn't start the internal conflict.  Arabs decided to throw rocks, set fires, and attack police officers, totally unprovoked, because they were upset about Sheikh Jarrah.  Then after they got their asses kicked a few times (as happens when one picks a fight with the police), they decided to have more riots, and marched around burning buildings and vehicles and attacking Jews.  And chanted "Strike Tel Aviv!  Strike Tel Aviv!" calling on Hamas to attack civilians in Israel's largest city.



So much of the discourse around this conflict really boils down to this disturbing leftist orthodoxy about violence.  Most people believe that when you use violence, you are in the wrong, and that if someone then uses violence back at you to defend themselves, they have the moral high ground because they were provoked.  Leftists believe that in a case of more powerful vs. less powerful, the less powerful person always has the moral high ground, and their violence is excusable (even laudable) because it is being deployed against the more powerful.  And the more powerful should simply lie down and take it, and not retaliate, because the only moral outcome of a power struggle is victory for the weak at the expense of the mighty.

You can see this sort of morality play out over and over again in far-left political discourse.  My neighborhood of Capitol Hill is still covered in "KILL COPS" graffiti that people justified using the exact same logic.  We all remember this logic being used to justify violent riots and looting last summer.

And that's that.

The Arab rioters who started violent riots are automatically in the right because they have less power, and the police should have lain down and let the rioters do whatever they want, because police have more power and suppressing a riot is immoral.  Rioters good, police bad.

The Palestinian terrorist organization that launched thousands of rockets into Israel is automatically in the right because they did it on behalf of the less powerful.  Israel should have lain down and let Hamas do whatever they want, because the IDF has more power, and retaliating with violence is immoral.  Palestine good, Israel bad.

[GeneralMacArthur]

Why is it that you're so against the right of return, dude? Why should it be a thing for Jewish people but not Palestinians?

It's not a thing for Jewish people.  Jews spent the last 3000 years getting kicked out of one home or another -- if they were lucky enough to not simply be slaughtered in their beds.  When Israel was founded, Jews living in Muslim countries were kicked out en masse and told "you have a place to go now, get the hell out of here.  And leave all your stuff behind."  None of those states are offering the Jews "right of return."  WOJAC estimates that the property lost by Jews in Arab countries would be 4x the size of Israel and valued at over $300 billion.  How much wealth and land did the Jews of Europe forfeit to Nazi rule?  How much land and wealth did the Jews of the Soviet Union lose, both after the revolution (when they were the poster child for "urban bourgeoisie degenerates") and before the revolution when they were subjected to an endless series of pogroms?

You must be careful when advocating for the righting of historical injustices as a moral necessity.  If the Jews were properly compensated for their millenia of suffering and persecution, they truly would own the entire world.

That would probably be true even if you set the statute of limitations to just the last century.



In the 1920s and 1930s, there were plenty of instances of widespread violence in Mandatory Palestine, targeting the Jews who were moving to the area.  There was also an endless stream of terrorist activity, arson, and lynchings.  You may have heard of the Black Hand, the terrorist organization created by the Palestinians to attack and kill Jews.  The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, an Atlas meme, was seen as the main political leader of the Palestinian Arabs (he was also the leader of Palestine after the 1948 war).  He aligned with the Nazis during WW2 and formed a militia that eventually grew to be tens of thousands strong, dedicated to destroying the Jews.

Here are some pictures of the guy yukking it up with Himmler and Hitler, and then a quote of him celebrating the Holocaust as it was happening and implying they should do the same thing in Palestine.

It is the duty of Muhammadans in general and Arabs in particular to drive all Jews from Arab and Muhammadan countries ... Germany is also struggling against the common foe who oppressed Arabs and Muhammadans in their different countries. It has very clearly recognized the Jews for what they are and resolved to find a definitive solution for the Jewish danger that will eliminate the scourge that Jews represent in the world.

In 1947, two years after the holocaust that the leader of the Palestinian Arabs applauded, the UN approved a partition plan to divide MP into two states.  One would be a Jewish state, home to the Jews, the other would be an Arab state.  The Arabs didn't like this so they immediately attacked the Jews, starting a civil war that would eventually spiral into the Arab-Israeli War, with Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia and various non-state Arab actors all teaming up to destroy Israel.

So that's the context for the Nakba, Israel forcibly evicting all the Arabs in the territory granted for a Jewish state.  People act like this was some unprovoked thing where the Jews just hated Arabs and decided to run them down and take their stuff.  While that was surely true in a few instances, the reality is that the territory was granted to the Jews, and Jews had good reason to feel uneasy keeping hundreds of thousands of Arab neighbors around as a war with those same Arabs was ongoing.

Now is the Nakba a great injustice?  Yes.  Most of the Palestinian Arabs evicted probably had nothing to do with the Black Hand, the Grand Mufti, the lynchings and riots and murders, or any of this other stuff the Palestinian Arabs as a whole were up to.

During and after the two World Wars, lines were drawn across the world, and forcible population transfers were conducted worldwide, often with great loss of property, wealth, and sometimes life.  In a few cases, the perpetrators of those injustices have made reparations to their victims.  Israel has also, on some occasions, tried to use cash to make good on the Nakba (see my earlier post about Israel helping to build civil infrastructure in Palestine).  But I-P is the only major conflict where the only acceptable solution demanded is millions of people re-occupying the land they lost -- land that was granted to the Jews by the partition plan.

My belief is that the PLO's main reason for insisting on right of return as the only acceptable form of reparations is that they want to re-occupy Israel with millions of Arabs, thus eliminating the concept of a Jewish state.  And this isn't really a matter of belief because plenty of Palestinians have openly said that this is the end goal.  The vast majority of villages lost in the Nakba were razed long ago and are now unrecognizable beneath 70 years of modern development.  Nobody seriously believes that the grandchildren of some citrus farmers are going to return to those agricultural villages, put their century-old key in the door, and pick up where they left off.  That's just a fantasy.  Right of return would be a humanitarian disaster if it was actually implemented in practice.  But the PLO rejected Israeli attempts to build housing and civil infrastructure in Palestine, which is a much more practical form of reparations.

[🐒Gods of Prosperity🔱🐲💸]

Can we just be honest and say that the real reason we are taking Israel’s side is because it benefits us? Allying with a high tech, powerful country with a natural tilt against China (our biggest rival) makes sense.

I don’t mind us doing that, I don’t mind our weapon sales to foreign countries for our gain, but do we really have to pretend Bloody Bibi has some fictional moral high ground here?

I get why politicians can’t say it outright, but none of that applies to any Atlas poster.

If you really still think Israel has some high ground here despite putting the entire World at greater risk by bombing Covid testing sites...I pity you and those near you.

What is the "natural tilt against China"?   When did it start?  Longer than Americans have been supporting Israel?      Very few people think about such things in regard to this conflict.

[lfromnj]

Why is it that you're so against the right of return, dude? Why should it be a thing for Jewish people but not Palestinians?

Long post,nothing specific to quote

Anyway I do agree that it would be hard to do a right of return and it wouldn't work out

I also unlike leftists don't find evictions crazy and the Israeli Supreme court is generally fairly neutral but the issue is the law is unequal. Why do Israeli's get to prevent Palestinians from returning but still keep the property they lost and was given to Palestinians in 1947. Yes the initial taking of the property was unfair but so was the Nakba.

[Crumpets]

https://twitter.com/Joyce_Karam/status/1395460381720649729

[GeneralMacArthur]

Why is it that you're so against the right of return, dude? Why should it be a thing for Jewish people but not Palestinians?

Long post,nothing specific to quote

Anyway I do agree that it would be hard to do a right of return and it wouldn't work out

I also unlike leftists don't find evictions crazy and the Israeli Supreme court is generally fairly neutral but the issue is the law is unequal. Why do Israeli's get to prevent Palestinians from returning but still keep the property they lost and was given to Palestinians in 1947. Yes the initial taking of the property was unfair but so was the Nakba.

Because Israel conquered the West Bank and holds it under martial rule as a consequence of the Six Day War.  You can debate whether that occupation is fair or not (obviously most of the world does not see Palestine as part of Israel) but the application of the law is consistent with that Israeli reality.

Now you could also argue that even if that's technically true, Israel would be better off just leaving them alone, because the political consequences of actually enforcing that law would be pretty dire.  And they would agree with you -- for 54 years since the capture of Jerusalem, the Jews have allowed the Arabs whom Jordan had placed on their land to stay there, with only weak and intermittent attempts to evict them.  But the issue was bound to come to a head sometime.  It just happens to have been this week, with the predictable boiling over of tensions between the two camps.