Biden infrastructure/tax increase megathread

[Del Tachi]

It's so funny to watch online liberal activists channel all of their frustations toward Sinema when it is, quite transparently, the case that she is able to continue her "shtick" without major reproach from Schumer or Biden only because she is vocally representing the concerns of other moderate Democrats (i.e., Reed, Carper, Warner, Feinstein, Coons, etc.) who have no interest in voting for a sloppy $3.5T entitlement bill.

Kudos to her for sticking it to Pelosi for walking back her commitment to holding the BIC vote on a reasonable timetable.  It's a negotiated agreement representing one of Biden's key campaign promises and deserves to be passed on its merits.  If progressive in the House blow up the BIC, they immediately cede all leverage they have on getting majority support for a $3.5T wish list.     

[NOVA Green]

There is not a single credible argument against manchin's position that the goodies in the reconciliation bill should be means-tested.

it is a total waste of tax money to give the kids of rich families free community college, to give rich yuppies free daycare, and to give rich seniors free vision and dental.

THE GREAT SOCIETY OF THE 1960S WAS MEANS-TESTED.

why can't 2021 be?

OK--- not a big fan of mean testing over the decades, but unless Manchin is willing to OK much higher topline numbers for the wealthiest Americans, which has consistently opposed in order to support the Trump massive cuts on taxes for the rich, it becomes one of these scenarios where should the GVT provide certain "Goods and Services" for all Citizens or do the rich get a major pass on tax increases and meanwhile we have Seniors who can't afford the co-pays for Dental Care and it all ends up getting gutted a few years down the line.

The overwhelming majority of the funding in the Biden BBB Plan for various programs hits 60%+ margins and even 30%+ margins among PUBs, so difficult to see how this politically unpopular at all among the American Voting Population....

Also, a lot of times income can fluctuate dramatically (Especially among Seniors) and not to mention Middle and Working-Class Americans, so getting to a "Means Testing" vs a "This is a Program for all Americans", really looks a bit skint at a point where even wealthy Americans and large Corps generally support the concept of the Human Infrastructure Bill, which will actually make us much more competitive against economies in Europe and East Asia....

[jaichind]

One thing that is not clear to me is: The Progressive seems to indicate that they (including Sinema  and Manchin) all made a deal that the bipartisan bill and reconciliation bill should move together.  But Sinema  and Manchin seems to indicate that it makes no sense to link the two.  So what is the truth. Was there a deal or not?

[Del Tachi]

Time for a reality check, I think.

She needs to be dragged into the Oval Office so Biden can tell her: "Let's get one thing straight. I'm the President, you're a first term Senator. Not a Prime Minister, not Vice president, but a first term Senator. Your approval rating among Arizona Democrats is 17% and you're facing a vote of censure. You vote the way I tell you to vote or I'm going to personally campaign for your primary opponent. Your choice. Now get the f(inks) out of my house.

Reality check:  threats are the last resort for people who have no options left, lol

You're right.  It is her choice.  She and Biden will get to answer to the voters the same year

[jojoju1998]

Apparently Progressives are offering to cut the length of the programs from 10 years to 5.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/politics-nation/2021/10/04/Progressives-offer-to-scale-back-spending-to-advance-Biden-s-agenda/stories/202110040051

"House progressives looking for ways to rescue President Joe Biden’s stalled domestic agenda opened the door to scaling back some of the more ambitious social spending by having those programs expire rather than be permanent.

“One of the ideas out there is to fully fund what we can fully fund, but instead of funding it for 10 years, fund it for five years,” said Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a New York Democrat and leading progressive voice, on CBS’s “Face the Nation.”

Democrats are looking for ways out of their deadlock three days after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi scuttled a planned vote on a $550 billion infrastructure package. She retreated as progressives balked at a stand-alone bill without the $3.5 trillion social safety-net spending and tax increases they want.

Progressives say they’re willing to compromise on that number — within limits. The chairwoman of the Congressional Progressive Caucus flatly rejected Sen. Joe Manchin’s offer of $1.5 trillion in social spending."

[jaichind]

Apparently Progressives are offering to cut the length of the programs from 10 years to 5.

https://www.post-gazette.com/news/politics-nation/2021/10/04/Progressives-offer-to-scale-back-spending-to-advance-Biden-s-agenda/stories/202110040051

"House progressives looking for ways to rescue President Joe Biden’s stalled domestic agenda opened the door to scaling back some of the more ambitious social spending by having those programs expire rather than be permanent.

“One of the ideas out there is to fully fund what we can fully fund, but instead of funding it for 10 years, fund it for five years,” said Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, a New York Democrat and leading progressive voice, on CBS’s “Face the Nation.”

Democrats are looking for ways out of their deadlock three days after House Speaker Nancy Pelosi scuttled a planned vote on a $550 billion infrastructure package. She retreated as progressives balked at a stand-alone bill without the $3.5 trillion social safety-net spending and tax increases they want.

Progressives say they’re willing to compromise on that number — within limits. The chairwoman of the Congressional Progressive Caucus flatly rejected Sen. Joe Manchin’s offer of $1.5 trillion in social spending."

That sounds like an accounting trick taking advantage of the 10 year time period of the reconciliation process.  Why not have everything start at the 9th year to lower the cost even more.  BTW, I totally agree that 2017 Trump tax cut used similar tricks.

[NOVA Green]

It's so funny to watch online liberal activists channel all of their frustations toward Sinema when it is, quite transparently, the case that she is able to continue her "shtick" without major reproach from Schumer or Biden only because she is vocally representing the concerns of other moderate Democrats (i.e., Reed, Carper, Warner, Feinstein, Coons, etc.) who have no interest in voting for a sloppy $3.5T entitlement bill.

Kudos to her for sticking it to Pelosi for walking back her commitment to holding the BIC vote on a reasonable timetable.  It's a negotiated agreement representing one of Biden's key campaign promises and deserves to be passed on its merits.  If progressive in the House blow up the BIC, they immediately cede all leverage they have on getting majority support for a $3.5T wish list.     

DEMS do not equal PUBs.

The Republican Party has become a bunch of parrots so afraid of the "Curse of Trump" that they can't even grow sets of Balls or Ovaries to even challenge their Party leaders.

Sinema will go down in 2024, either in a DEM PRIM or a GE at this point based upon her Showboating for the Media Cameras in DC.

She will most likely survive both the 2024 PRIM & GE if she supports the Biden Build Back Better Plan.

If not she is sunk....

Sure SEN DEMs are wearing "Kid Gloves" with Sinema at this moment, but she sure as hell ain't no John McCain who could flip a Middle Finger on a key Senate vote, knowing that he would be able to survive the political consequences....

[NOVA Green]

Manchin is now coming out as a pawn of the Natural Gas Industry on the Infrastructure Negotiations...

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/574977-manchin-clashes-with-fellow-democrats-over-fossil-fuel-demands

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

Manchin is now coming out as a pawn of the Natural Gas Industry on the Infrastructure Negotiations...

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/574977-manchin-clashes-with-fellow-democrats-over-fossil-fuel-demands

I’ve already accepted going in that anything on climate change would be notional, given that we have to get approval from a guy that owns a coal mine.

The senators making a stand over the final topline number (also, can we retire the use of the phrase ‘price tag’, the 3.5 trillion is a maximum for gross outflows, not the net cost) because big numbers are magic and scary is silly. And driven by the fact that literally every single provision is popular on it’s own, but it doesn’t occur to them that doing a whole bunch of broadly popular things might be more helpful that opposing things to show what a maverick you are.

[NOVA Green]

Manchin is now coming out as a pawn of the Natural Gas Industry on the Infrastructure Negotiations...

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/574977-manchin-clashes-with-fellow-democrats-over-fossil-fuel-demands

I’ve already accepted going in that anything on climate change would be notional, given that we have to get approval from a guy that owns a coal mine.

The senators making a stand over the final topline number (also, can we retire the use of the phrase ‘price tag’, the 3.5 trillion is a maximum for gross outflows, not the net cost) because big numbers are magic and scary is silly. And driven by the fact that literally every single provision is popular on it’s own, but it doesn’t occur to them that doing a whole bunch of broadly popular things might be more helpful that opposing things to show what a maverick you are.

Truth.... we could also look at potentially letting Nuclear Energy back into the mix on an Infrastructure Bill and Climate Change.

There is tons of R&D when it comes to "Mini-Nuke" Technology, much of it pioneered from Oregon State University and shared with public/private sector partnerships.

Obviously we still run into the same issue as before as to how effectively store Nuclear Waste with all of the half-lives scenarios, but at some point might need to be considered as an option to deal with extensive Climate Change scenarios.

Mini-Nuke Facilities are generally considered to be much safer when it comes to the potential Environmental and Human catastrophes from items such as Earthquakes, Tsunamis, let alone Nuclear Plant meltdowns.

Personally might prefer more "Mini-Nukes" in the mix and less of "Natural Gas", but don't believe Manchin would support a "Mini-Nuke" Plant or two in WV, despite the fact that would likely provide more jobs, and generally is in a part of the US less exposed to extreme potential releases of Radioactive Waste....

[7,052,770]

it is a total waste of tax money to give the kids of rich families free community college,

I generally agree with the sentiment, but means testing costs a lot, leads to fraud, and leads to people falling through the cracks. I am pretty skeptical the juice is worth the squeeze to means-test free community college when very few rich people are going to want go to their local public community college in the first place.

to give rich yuppies free daycare

I suspect that you don't realize just how expensive day care is. Even to a rich person, it's a pretty big financial burden. Also, you run into the issue that whatever subsidized public daycare that is created is something that few rich people are actually ever going to want to send their kids to, so the means testing is unlikely to save much while screwing some over unintentionally.

and to give rich seniors free vision and dental.

Yikes, strong disagree on that one. Health care should be universal. You don't think we should kick rich olds off of Medicare do you?

THE GREAT SOCIETY OF THE 1960S WAS MEANS-TESTED.

why can't 2021 be?

It can and should be, but only when it makes sense to do so, which it often doesn't pay off.

[HagridOfTheDeep]

So are we now at the point where we’ll be lucky if any of this even happens by the end of October?

[GoTfan]

Time for a reality check, I think.

She needs to be dragged into the Oval Office so Biden can tell her: "Let's get one thing straight. I'm the President, you're a first term Senator. Not a Prime Minister, not Vice president, but a first term Senator. Your approval rating among Arizona Democrats is 17% and you're facing a vote of censure. You vote the way I tell you to vote or I'm going to personally campaign for your primary opponent. Your choice. Now get the f(inks) out of my house.

Reality check:  threats are the last resort for people who have no options left, lol

You're right.  It is her choice.  She and Biden will get to answer to the voters the same year

And her approval rating for Arizona Democrats is under 20%. If Biden were to come and campaign for her primary opponent, she'd be sunk.

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

So are we now at the point where we’ll be lucky if any of this even happens by the end of October?

Debt limit being what it is, we’ve got 15 days.

[BigSerg]

Manchin is now coming out as a pawn of the Natural Gas Industry on the Infrastructure Negotiations...

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/574977-manchin-clashes-with-fellow-democrats-over-fossil-fuel-demands

I’ve already accepted going in that anything on climate change would be notional, given that we have to get approval from a guy that owns a coal mine.

The senators making a stand over the final topline number (also, can we retire the use of the phrase ‘price tag’, the 3.5 trillion is a maximum for gross outflows, not the net cost) because big numbers are magic and scary is silly. And driven by the fact that literally every single provision is popular on it’s own, but it doesn’t occur to them that doing a whole bunch of broadly popular things might be more helpful that opposing things to show what a maverick you are.

Truth.... we could also look at potentially letting Nuclear Energy back into the mix on an Infrastructure Bill and Climate Change.

There is tons of R&D when it comes to "Mini-Nuke" Technology, much of it pioneered from Oregon State University and shared with public/private sector partnerships.

Obviously we still run into the same issue as before as to how effectively store Nuclear Waste with all of the half-lives scenarios, but at some point might need to be considered as an option to deal with extensive Climate Change scenarios.

Mini-Nuke Facilities are generally considered to be much safer when it comes to the potential Environmental and Human catastrophes from items such as Earthquakes, Tsunamis, let alone Nuclear Plant meltdowns.

Personally might prefer more "Mini-Nukes" in the mix and less of "Natural Gas", but don't believe Manchin would support a "Mini-Nuke" Plant or two in WV, despite the fact that would likely provide more jobs, and generally is in a part of the US less exposed to extreme potential releases of Radioactive Waste....

Nuclear energy is the future!

[GoTfan]

Manchin is now coming out as a pawn of the Natural Gas Industry on the Infrastructure Negotiations...

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/574977-manchin-clashes-with-fellow-democrats-over-fossil-fuel-demands

I’ve already accepted going in that anything on climate change would be notional, given that we have to get approval from a guy that owns a coal mine.

The senators making a stand over the final topline number (also, can we retire the use of the phrase ‘price tag’, the 3.5 trillion is a maximum for gross outflows, not the net cost) because big numbers are magic and scary is silly. And driven by the fact that literally every single provision is popular on it’s own, but it doesn’t occur to them that doing a whole bunch of broadly popular things might be more helpful that opposing things to show what a maverick you are.

Truth.... we could also look at potentially letting Nuclear Energy back into the mix on an Infrastructure Bill and Climate Change.

There is tons of R&D when it comes to "Mini-Nuke" Technology, much of it pioneered from Oregon State University and shared with public/private sector partnerships.

Obviously we still run into the same issue as before as to how effectively store Nuclear Waste with all of the half-lives scenarios, but at some point might need to be considered as an option to deal with extensive Climate Change scenarios.

Mini-Nuke Facilities are generally considered to be much safer when it comes to the potential Environmental and Human catastrophes from items such as Earthquakes, Tsunamis, let alone Nuclear Plant meltdowns.

Personally might prefer more "Mini-Nukes" in the mix and less of "Natural Gas", but don't believe Manchin would support a "Mini-Nuke" Plant or two in WV, despite the fact that would likely provide more jobs, and generally is in a part of the US less exposed to extreme potential releases of Radioactive Waste....

Nuclear energy is the future!

Nevermind the huge ecological cost of building one, or the even bigger ecological cost if something goes wrong with it. Oh, there's also the fact we have no idea what to do with spent fuel rods.

[Absentee Voting Ghost of Ruin]

Manchin is now coming out as a pawn of the Natural Gas Industry on the Infrastructure Negotiations...

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/574977-manchin-clashes-with-fellow-democrats-over-fossil-fuel-demands

I’ve already accepted going in that anything on climate change would be notional, given that we have to get approval from a guy that owns a coal mine.

The senators making a stand over the final topline number (also, can we retire the use of the phrase ‘price tag’, the 3.5 trillion is a maximum for gross outflows, not the net cost) because big numbers are magic and scary is silly. And driven by the fact that literally every single provision is popular on it’s own, but it doesn’t occur to them that doing a whole bunch of broadly popular things might be more helpful that opposing things to show what a maverick you are.

Truth.... we could also look at potentially letting Nuclear Energy back into the mix on an Infrastructure Bill and Climate Change.

There is tons of R&D when it comes to "Mini-Nuke" Technology, much of it pioneered from Oregon State University and shared with public/private sector partnerships.

Obviously we still run into the same issue as before as to how effectively store Nuclear Waste with all of the half-lives scenarios, but at some point might need to be considered as an option to deal with extensive Climate Change scenarios.

Mini-Nuke Facilities are generally considered to be much safer when it comes to the potential Environmental and Human catastrophes from items such as Earthquakes, Tsunamis, let alone Nuclear Plant meltdowns.

Personally might prefer more "Mini-Nukes" in the mix and less of "Natural Gas", but don't believe Manchin would support a "Mini-Nuke" Plant or two in WV, despite the fact that would likely provide more jobs, and generally is in a part of the US less exposed to extreme potential releases of Radioactive Waste....

Nuclear energy is the future!

Nevermind the huge ecological cost of building one, or the even bigger ecological cost if something goes wrong with it. Oh, there's also the fact we have no idea what to do with spent fuel rods.

We absolutely know what to do with spent fuel rods. We're just stuck in a half-century old mindset.

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

So are we now at the point where we’ll be lucky if any of this even happens by the end of October?

Debt limit being what it is, we’ve got 15 days.

It's actually 11 with weekends, it's not gonna happen due to fact Biden have ignored negotiating with R Leaders since infrastructure bill, the only Rs that he negotiated with even back then we're Cassidy, Collins and Murkowski and even they are Filibustering the Debt Ceiling increase because Collins is more partisan now and endorsed LePage for Gov

This bill isn't a Stimulus check and Medicare Expansion doesn't even take effect til 2028 and it doesn't have Student Loan forgiveness this bill falls short

[Vaccinated Russian Bear]

One thing that is not clear to me is: The Progressive seems to indicate that they (including Sinema  and Manchin) all made a deal that the bipartisan bill and reconciliation bill should move together.  But Sinema  and Manchin seems to indicate that it makes no sense to link the two.  So what is the truth. Was there a deal or not?

IIRC, there were never a deal, just a promise from Pelosi to Progressives to tie them together?

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

Biden still thinks Rs are bluffing on Debt Ceiling and hasn't met with any GOP leader like Obama did with Boehner on budget caps Ceiling in Debt Ceiling fight in 2011/13

Rs have already blocked it twice with the Filibuster


https://finance.yahoo.com/news/biden-says-gop-filibuster-debt-140725880.html

[StateBoiler]

The Chamber of Commerce have apparently been frozen out of Republican legislative strategy sessions.

They've taken a pro-infrastructure bill, anti-reconciliation bill stance trying to argue the two are separate, which the Democrats via Biden Friday tried to quash inside the caucus. So the Chamber's position is represented by maybe 20 people in the House? (10 Democratic moderates plus the 10 or so Republicans that were going to vote for the infrastructure bill if they have a free vote.)

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

The Rs are Blocking Debt Ceiling increase they get nothing out of it

[Amenhotep Bakari-Sellers]

https://news.yahoo.com/mcconnell-accuses-dem-leaders-letting-205651879.html

This is why Leader McConnell isn't bluffing on Filibusteribg the Debt Ceiling he said the Radical Left is controlling the Biden Agenda, he, McConnell didn't block infrastructure, he is blocking the Debt Ceiling due to 3.5T Socialized medicine

[Buffalo Mayor Young Kim]

https://news.yahoo.com/mcconnell-accuses-dem-leaders-letting-205651879.html

This is why Leader McConnell isn't bluffing on Filibusteribg the Debt Ceiling he said the Radical Left is controlling the Biden Agenda, he, McConnell didn't block infrastructure, he is blocking the Debt Ceiling due to 3.5T Socialized medicine

I know I shouldn’t reply to a bot trying, but on the off chance that anyone is taking this seriously, not only is the post a non-sequitor, so is McConnell’s entire argument.
‘Raising the debt ceiling’ has nothing to do with spending, it just means not preventing the Fed from issuing bonds.

[7,052,770]

Manchin is now coming out as a pawn of the Natural Gas Industry on the Infrastructure Negotiations...

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/574977-manchin-clashes-with-fellow-democrats-over-fossil-fuel-demands

I’ve already accepted going in that anything on climate change would be notional, given that we have to get approval from a guy that owns a coal mine.

The senators making a stand over the final topline number (also, can we retire the use of the phrase ‘price tag’, the 3.5 trillion is a maximum for gross outflows, not the net cost) because big numbers are magic and scary is silly. And driven by the fact that literally every single provision is popular on it’s own, but it doesn’t occur to them that doing a whole bunch of broadly popular things might be more helpful that opposing things to show what a maverick you are.

Truth.... we could also look at potentially letting Nuclear Energy back into the mix on an Infrastructure Bill and Climate Change.

There is tons of R&D when it comes to "Mini-Nuke" Technology, much of it pioneered from Oregon State University and shared with public/private sector partnerships.

Obviously we still run into the same issue as before as to how effectively store Nuclear Waste with all of the half-lives scenarios, but at some point might need to be considered as an option to deal with extensive Climate Change scenarios.

Mini-Nuke Facilities are generally considered to be much safer when it comes to the potential Environmental and Human catastrophes from items such as Earthquakes, Tsunamis, let alone Nuclear Plant meltdowns.

Personally might prefer more "Mini-Nukes" in the mix and less of "Natural Gas", but don't believe Manchin would support a "Mini-Nuke" Plant or two in WV, despite the fact that would likely provide more jobs, and generally is in a part of the US less exposed to extreme potential releases of Radioactive Waste....

Nuclear energy is the future!

Nevermind the huge ecological cost of building one, or the even bigger ecological cost if something goes wrong with it. Oh, there's also the fact we have no idea what to do with spent fuel rods.

The environmental issues with nuclear power are much smaller than with their only viable alternative, fossil fuels.