Spanish elections and politics III / Pedro Sánchez faces a new term as PM

[Velasco]

if Puigdemont risks political persecution, he isn't going to return and he'll sell his skin dearly. At least, he would be dumb not too.

Neither Puigdemont nor his political movement are risking political persecution. Pro-independence parties are legal in Spain and contest elections. Puigdemont is has been prosecuted  for the unilateral secession attempt in 2017. Back in the day, other proíndependence leaders decided to stay and face charges of sedition and embezzlement. Oriol Junqueras and other Catalan leaders were imprisoned The current government abolished the crime of sedition and issued pardons for those jailed pro-independence leaders, with the aim to bormalize the political situation in Catalonia. Puigdemont and others decided to flee and they are still prosecuted by the Spanish judiciary. In case the remaining pro-independence leaders decide to return, they would be trialed and could face prison sentences. Issuing amnesty for people who broke the constitutional order is not assumable for any Spanish government. Amnesty would imply that unilateral secession attempt had some kind if legitimacy. However, this is a political problem that needs to be solved

[Oryxslayer]

One looming issue right now is that from the separatist (not nationalist) perspective, all actions - even if they are to their benefit - are illegitimate:

The parliament of Catalonia is the only representative body possessing any legitimacy in Catalonia. In 2017 said body approved a referendum on Independence. It was approved by the Catalan electorate - the opposition boycotts don't matter to them in a similar vein to the incoming PSOE claiming it's mandate from Catalonia despite the boycotts. The referendum was further legitimized by Madrid's reaction - they saw it as a legitimate threat with consequences, so they took excessive force and extralegal action. It doesn't matter that the Nationalist parties won a majority when Spain reopened the government, the legitimate continuity from separatist perspective went with Junts into exile. Legitimacy flows from the people of Catalonia, not the Madrid government.

This is what I mean when I say the divide between the separatists and the level-headed types has only deepened in the past few years, even though the ERC and PSC are now in the various drivers seats in the region. Junts has radicalized and so have their core supporters - see Junts holding up the best of the Nationalist parties at the polls. Separatists have only Junts and abstention as options after all. Spain can offer almost nothing to them but the recognition of their 'timeline,' which would actualize independence so no government will ever do it.

[Zinneke]

PP are trying to lobby PSOE figures individually, hoping for them to vote for Feijoo, and Vox have said they will abstain in case Feijoo builds this majority. It's still a pipe dream but the impass with the Catalans + the PSOE having previous with defectors who just care about careerism means this could be an interesting development...

[Bacon King]

PP are trying to lobby PSOE figures individually, hoping for them to vote for Feijoo, and Vox have said they will abstain in case Feijoo builds this majority. It's still a pipe dream but the impass with the Catalans + the PSOE having previous with defectors who just care about careerism means this could be an interesting development...

For those keeping score at home, Feijoo would need support from 21 of PSOE's 122 deputies to pull this off, assuming this PP minority government also has the support of both UPN and CC. Also possible if 42 PSOE deputies could be persuaded to abstain (or possibly some mix of the two)

With PSOE members voting for PP government

Yes = 159 (136 PP, 21 PSOE, 1 UPN, 1 CC)
No = 158 (101 PSOE, 31 Sumar, 7 ERC, 7 Junts, 6 Bildu, 5 PNV, 1 BNG)
Abstain = 33 (Vox)


With PSOE members abstaining

Yes = 138 (136 PP, 1 UPN, 1 CC)
No = 137 (80 PSOE, 31 Sumar, 7 ERC, 7 Junts, 6 Bildu, 5 PNV, 1 BNG)
Abstain = 75 (42 PSOE, 33 Vox)

[Lumine]

It's not that there haven't been cases of vote defection in Spanish politics and particularly for regional governments, but they're always treated as scandalous (see: the Tamayazo).

And it's almost or perhaps even unheard of for an investiture debate.

So the idea that sizable numbers of PSOE deputies would suddenly ditch Sanchez and make Feijoo premier... I'd bet more money on Franco rising from the grave.

[Bacon King]

almost forgot to respond to the big guy

Just look at the amount of fools that give you "recommend" English and illiterate Americans who do not know the reality of Spain. Let me explain, I have Spanish nationality, I lived in Catalonia for years and I know its parliamentary system to perfection. Any Spaniard with an IQ above 1 would agree with me on this, but seeing that pitifully most Anglo-Saxons are intellectually deficient and like to comment on the politics of other countries without having a clue, I will enlighten you a bit with facts.

lol

lmao, even

2019 was the worst bad faith comparison you could find for a very simple reason, the right split into three different parties Cs, Vox and PP, resulting in the worst possible voting efficiency. Not to mention that the distribution of seats would be different and probably another electoral law would be needed.

In these elections the results would be like this:

Spain without Cat: Right: 161 seats
                            Left+Pnv: 139 seats

2016:

Spain without Cat: Right: 159 seats
                            Left+Pnv: 144 seats

2008:

Spain without Cat: Right: 156 seats
                            Left+Pnv: 146 seats


In terms of votes, in all cases the right would have a consistent lead of more than five points in all elections. Without Catalonia, the right would overwhelmingly dominate in all elections, barring exceptional cases of right-wing vote splitting, such as in 2019 or a massive terrorist attack as in 2004.

You made a claim about the current state of affairs, so I looked at the investiture vote of the current government. So misleading of me!

I find it hilarious you're attempting to win this argument... by categorically disproving literally the very statement we're arguing about

as a reminder, this was your very silly claim:

It is a fact that, without Catalonia, the right wing would ensure its perpetual victory. The Psoe as a party has disappeared from the rest of Spain, the same with Podemos.

now I know my intellectually deficient Anglo-Saxon mind is no match for a big brain genius like you but I don't think it's really accurate to say "it a fact that the right wing would ensure its perpetual victory without Catalonia" when the mere existence of a third right wing party is all it takes for the right to lose. Not very perpetual if you ask me!

Also if the PSOE and Podemos really have "disappeared from the rest of Spain" when why is the right's margin of victory so narrow in all those results you listed? You're demonstrating the left still consistently wins like 47% of non-Catalan seats in every election, that REALLY doesn't sound like anyone has disappeared to me




Here's my point: even if you ignore the fact that PP would be committing electoral suicide if they allowed an independent Catalonia, even if you ignore all the very obvious reasons why they'd never support Catalan secession, even if you only look at the numbers in a vacuum of what recent elections would have been like without any votes from the region, even then you are still wrong. Your so-called "perpetual victory" is in truth just a marginal advantage that only exists in the absence of extenuating circumstances

That's literally nothing lol

[afleitch]

https://twitter.com/Nassreddin2002/status/1684145840804225025

[Filuwaúrdjan]

The characteristically Spanish part is that very long tied middle. Little easing into the sharp beginnings and ends at all.

[Vosem]

This discussion about how the Spanish right would benefit from Catalonia seceding reminds me of how many conservatives in Canada were secretly hoping Quebec would vote to separate since the extreme unpopularity of the Conservatives in Quebec always made it almost impossible for them to win power nationally.   

Was it that secret? It's never been the stance of the CPC, or any party that truly fought for national power in Canada, but Reform was openly agnostic on the question of Quebec independence, and I think "better apart" is a pretty common sentiment among the Western Canadian non-fringe far-right (here meaning things like the right half of conservative parties, not random people on the Internet).

It's maybe not relevant to a thread on Spain, but it's interesting to consider why the Canadian right is such an outlier here, compared to the Spanish PP or British Tories which are horrified by the prospects of Catalan or Scottish independence. (Note that, as BK has documented, Catalonia isn't actually all that much of a problem for the Spanish right -- and in the pre-Vox days CiU had been a partner in at least one PP-led government -- but certainly Scotland is a very real problem for the British Tories. Quebec seems somewhere in between; BQ does not seem as hostile to the CPC as the SNP is to the Tories.) Part of the story here might be that Catalonia is much wealthier than the rest of Spain, so it receives population growth from the remainder of the country, creating a demographic which is very invested in Catalonia remaining Spanish, while Quebec has the opposite pattern, with English speakers tending to move out. This doesn't explain Scotland, though.

It might be explained by "Canadian" being a much younger identity than "British" or "Spanish", I guess. It seems like relatively more Canadians tend to identify with their particular province rather than the federal Canadian project as a whole.

[mileslunn]

This discussion about how the Spanish right would benefit from Catalonia seceding reminds me of how many conservatives in Canada were secretly hoping Quebec would vote to separate since the extreme unpopularity of the Conservatives in Quebec always made it almost impossible for them to win power nationally.   

Was it that secret? It's never been the stance of the CPC, or any party that truly fought for national power in Canada, but Reform was openly agnostic on the question of Quebec independence, and I think "better apart" is a pretty common sentiment among the Western Canadian non-fringe far-right (here meaning things like the right half of conservative parties, not random people on the Internet).

It's maybe not relevant to a thread on Spain, but it's interesting to consider why the Canadian right is such an outlier here, compared to the Spanish PP or British Tories which are horrified by the prospects of Catalan or Scottish independence. (Note that, as BK has documented, Catalonia isn't actually all that much of a problem for the Spanish right -- and in the pre-Vox days CiU had been a partner in at least one PP-led government -- but certainly Scotland is a very real problem for the British Tories. Quebec seems somewhere in between; BQ does not seem as hostile to the CPC as the SNP is to the Tories.) Part of the story here might be that Catalonia is much wealthier than the rest of Spain, so it receives population growth from the remainder of the country, creating a demographic which is very invested in Catalonia remaining Spanish, while Quebec has the opposite pattern, with English speakers tending to move out. This doesn't explain Scotland, though.

It might be explained by "Canadian" being a much younger identity than "British" or "Spanish", I guess. It seems like relatively more Canadians tend to identify with their particular province rather than the federal Canadian project as a whole.

Catalonia is wealthier is big reason since if separated Spain would likely have to raise taxes, something right generally opposes whereas if Quebec left, Canada could likely cut taxes as they cost more to taxpayers than pay in.  Although I think in Europe in general economics is not a big issue on this and its more nationalism.  Countries there go back centuries so I think reason British Tories and right in Spain favour keeping Catalonia and Scotland is both are about nationalism and pride in country and losing part is seen as weakening of nation.

In Canada its mostly Conservatives in Prairies and West, few in Ontario or Atlantic Canada would be happy to see Quebec go.  It is partly economics, but partly also see no connection due to geographical distance as well as Canada is a relatively young country so nationalist argument not as strong.  Also living in Canada, overwhelming majority on right who want Quebec to leave come from one province, Alberta.  Not sure Spain or UK have an equivalent of Alberta so that might be bigger reason.  In fact on economics Catalonia is probably closest to Alberta in Spain while in UK, it would be London which generally votes Labour.  In neither country do you have the richest sub national unit being quite right wing.  I guess Madrid is somewhat like Alberta in being right wing and better off, but also in its power more like Ontario.

[Velasco]

Scottish independence. (Note that, as BK has documented, Catalonia isn't actually all that much of a problem for the Spanish right -- and in the pre-Vox days CiU had been a partner in at least one PP-led government -- but certainly Scotland is a very real problem for the British Tories. Quebec seems somewhere in between; BQ does not seem as hostile to the CPC as the SNP is to the Tories.) Part of the story here might be that Catalonia is much wealthier than the rest of Spain, so it receives population growth from the remainder of the country, creating a demographic which is very invested in Catalonia remaining Spanish, while Quebec has the opposite pattern, with English speakers tending to move out. This doesn't explain Scotland, though.

Catalonia is actually hostile territory for the PP, as well as the Basque Country. The PP consistently underperforms in both regions, mostly because their middle classes tend to support nationalist parties. There are differences between the two regions, though. In the Basque Country the PP is more popular among upper and middle classes in provincial capitals, but the moderate and pragmatist PNV is the leading party among these sectors. In Catalonia the PP is weaker in urban middle class neighbourrhoods, places were CiU was hegemonic and now are split between ERC and Junts (more radicalized than the PNV on the national question nowadays). The best areas for the PP in Catalonia tend to be in the sociological extremes, either in the working class periphery or in the upper class neighbourhoods of Barcelona. Comparatively the Catalan socialists (PSC) are more popular in working class areas and get better results than the PP in middle class neighbourhoods, while thhe PP is stronger in some upper class strongholds within Barcelona (i.e: Pedralbes). In the last general and regional elections held in 2019 and 2021 the PP reached its nadir there, even though its vote has recovered in 2023. It's worth noting that most of the Cs base of support in Catalonia came from the PSC and not from the PP and that's s differentilal fact with regards the rest of Spain. The Cs collapse benefitted the PSC ito a greater extent than the PP.

I'll post the results of the 4 bigger parties, so you'll get an idea

Spain: PP 33.05%, PSOE 31.7%, VOX 12.39%, SUMAR 12.31%

Left: 44.01% / Right: 45.44%

Catalonia: PSC 34.49%, SUMAR 14.03%, PP 13.34%, VOX 7,76%

Left: 48.52% / Right: 21.1%

Basque Country:

PSOE 25.27%, PP 11.49%, SUMAR 11.07%, VOX 2.61%

Left: 36.34% / Right: 14.1%    

Even though the results in Catalonia are exceprional, Zapatero got even better results for the PSOE in 2004 and 2008. The Spanish left is always stronger than the Spanish right in geenral elections, with the sole exception of the 2000 general election in the Basque Country. Despite of this, most right-wing Spaniards regard these regions as integral parts of Spain. Moreover, the VOX surge (and previously the Cs surge) is closely related to the peak of the Catalan conflict. The VOX success in November 2019 was preceded by by street fighting in Barcelona, with radical pro-independence supporters burning trash containers. Protests in Barcelona were motivated by the Supreme Court rulings that implied prison sentences for Catalan pro-independence leaders

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Was it that secret? It's never been the stance of the CPC, or any party that truly fought for national power in Canada, but Reform was openly agnostic on the question of Quebec independence, and I think "better apart" is a pretty common sentiment among the Western Canadian non-fringe far-right (here meaning things like the right half of conservative parties, not random people on the Internet).

Reform was a particularist party that happened to be right wing, rather than a right wing party that happened to be particularist. It was as opposed to the grand nation building project undertaken by the Liberal Party since the 1960s as the Quebec nationalists, and this was why people voted for it. Specifically, it is why the party polled so well in British Columbia, which was never previously a right-wing stronghold and has not been subsequently. So it can't really be seen as the equivalent of the PP in any way.

(Note that, as BK has documented, Catalonia isn't actually all that much of a problem for the Spanish right -- and in the pre-Vox days CiU had been a partner in at least one PP-led government -- but certainly Scotland is a very real problem for the British Tories. Quebec seems somewhere in between; BQ does not seem as hostile to the CPC as the SNP is to the Tories.)

Catalonia comprises about 16% of the population of Spain, whereas Scotland comprises about 8% of the United Kingdom's population.

[Filuwaúrdjan]

Or, to put things differently, Canada is not a nation state and an attempt to turn it into one fed into the already swelling wave of nationalist sentiment in Quebec while also sparking off a fierce regionalist backlash in the Western provinces. This is an entirely different situation to the Spanish one.

[Lord Halifax]

Catalonia comprises about 16% of the population of Spain, whereas Scotland comprises about 8% of the United Kingdom's population.

Catalonia is more economically and demographically important, but Scotland is far more strategically and militarily important, makes up a bigger part of the country's territory and is more important for national identity. Spain would still be Spain without Catalonia while Britain would be reduced to the old Kingdom of England (plus six Irish counties which would be an even more pointless appendix to the state than they are now). I suppose you could still call it the United Kingdom (of England, Wales and Northern Ireland..) and keep the Saltire in the Union Jack, but somehow that would be a bit phony. Losing Scotland would make the UK a Greater England whereas losing Catalonia wouldn't make Spain a Greater Castille.  

[FrancoAgo]

and a Spain without Catalunya could be a different elections results, not just that of actual Spain less Catalunya the dynamics will be different

[PSOL]

Just as I would expect England to lose her remaining European colonies in Ireland and have a serious crisis with other nationalities trapped within like Wales and Yorkshire if Scotland left, so too would Castille with and saying that it would not be a military or strategic loss is laughable. Castille losing Basque Country and Navarre along with Valencia over fear of rightist Castilians would leave it in the same category as Serbia who lost Kosovo and Montenegro.

A nominal left wing government in both cases is the only thing that can avert total secession.

[Mike88]

Overseas ballots will start being counted tomorrow. There are 233,688 ballots to be counted, around 10% of the 2,3 million voters registered overseas.

[Velasco]

Catalonia comprises about 16% of the population of Spain, whereas Scotland comprises about 8% of the United Kingdom's population.

Catalonia is more economically and demographically important, but Scotland is far more strategically and militarily important, makes up a bigger part of the country's territory and is more important for national identity. Spain would still be Spain without Catalonia while Britain would be reduced to the old Kingdom of England (plus six Irish counties which would be an even more pointless appendix to the state than they are now). I suppose you could still call it the United Kingdom (of England, Wales and Northern Ireland..) and keep the Saltire in the Union Jack, but somehow that would be a bit phony. Losing Scotland would make the UK a Greater England whereas losing Catalonia wouldn't make Spain a Greater Castille.  

I don't think Spain would be still Spain without Catalonia. I know that most of the people abroad tend to identify Spain to Castile, in a similar way non-British people often identify the UK to England. Castile was the most powerful of the medieval kingdoms that made up Spain, but Catalonia was rhe most important part of what once was the Crown of Aragon. Spain is not a compact nation state, but rather it's a state with a plurality of nations and a great deal of regional particularism. Spain without Catalonia would be little more than a rump state centered in Madrid,  I have little doubt about it

[MaxQue]

Catalonia comprises about 16% of the population of Spain, whereas Scotland comprises about 8% of the United Kingdom's population.

Catalonia is more economically and demographically important, but Scotland is far more strategically and militarily important, makes up a bigger part of the country's territory and is more important for national identity. Spain would still be Spain without Catalonia while Britain would be reduced to the old Kingdom of England (plus six Irish counties which would be an even more pointless appendix to the state than they are now). I suppose you could still call it the United Kingdom (of England, Wales and Northern Ireland..) and keep the Saltire in the Union Jack, but somehow that would be a bit phony. Losing Scotland would make the UK a Greater England whereas losing Catalonia wouldn't make Spain a Greater Castille.  

I don't think Spain would be still Spain without Catalonia. I know that most of the people abroad tend to identify Spain to Castile, in a similar way non-British people often identify the UK to England. Castile was the most powerful of the medieval kingdoms that made up Spain, but Catalonia was rhe most important part of what once was the Crown of Aragon. Spain is not a compact nation state, but rather it's a state with a plurality of nations and a great deal of regional particularism. Spain without Catalonia would be little more than a rump state centered in Madrid,  I have little doubt about it

For now. That will be very different once the Castillan nationalists in Vox get their grubby hands on power.

[Lord Halifax]

Catalonia comprises about 16% of the population of Spain, whereas Scotland comprises about 8% of the United Kingdom's population.

Catalonia is more economically and demographically important, but Scotland is far more strategically and militarily important, makes up a bigger part of the country's territory and is more important for national identity. Spain would still be Spain without Catalonia while Britain would be reduced to the old Kingdom of England (plus six Irish counties which would be an even more pointless appendix to the state than they are now). I suppose you could still call it the United Kingdom (of England, Wales and Northern Ireland..) and keep the Saltire in the Union Jack, but somehow that would be a bit phony. Losing Scotland would make the UK a Greater England whereas losing Catalonia wouldn't make Spain a Greater Castille.  

I don't think Spain would be still Spain without Catalonia. I know that most of the people abroad tend to identify Spain to Castile, in a similar way non-British people often identify the UK to England. Castile was the most powerful of the medieval kingdoms that made up Spain, but Catalonia was the most important part of what once was the Crown of Aragon. Spain is not a compact nation state, but rather it's a state with a plurality of nations and a great deal of regional particularism. Spain without Catalonia would be little more than a rump state centered in Madrid,  I have little doubt about it

Catalonia is only 6.3% of Spain's territory, it seems bizarre to claim the remaining 93.7% of the country would be a rump state, a remnant of a once much larger state. This isn't post-Trianon Hungary we're talking about.

Both Britain and Spain have multilayered identities, but while Spain includes a lot of distinct cultures it is stil not a state that's defined as a union of separate countries the way the United Kingdom is, a view that's reflected in its national flag and other symbols. Losing Scotland (which would likely also lead to the exit of Northern Ireland) would require a redefinition of what the nation is which just doesn't seem like a realistic prospect in a post-Catalan secession Spain.

The Basques and Catalans may view the Basque Country and Catalonia as countries, but constitutionally they're mere regions. The UK would lose a whole geo-strategic space without Scotland (the North Atlantic) while Spain would still be a Mediterranean country without Catalonia.

btw I don't think foreigners view Spain as Castille, which isn't that well known outside of Latin America.  Spain is mostly seen as Madrid, a lot of empty space in the interior and a ring of coastal regions with different cultures and sometimes local languages in a half circle around it plus some tourist islands. It then varies how many of those regions people know about, with Andalusia and "the Barcelona region"/Catalonia being the best known. If anything foreigners will tend to underestimate how many people actually live in central/interior Spain outside of the Madrid metro area.

[Zinneke]

With Ayuso turning Madrid into a tax haven that other communities (outside of Basque Country, Navarre, Aragon and Catalonia) simply can't compete with, both Catalonia and the Basque Country offer an economic counterweight to avoid Spain becoming heavily dependent on its capital and service sector in particular. If you look at population density a Catalonia-less Spain, is a Spain dominated by Madrid with a probable commercial port developing in both Valencia and the Galician cities, but its certainly a different "make up" politically speaking to what it is with Catalonia and the Basque country, and that would be reflected in its vote. Also Catalonia remains an industrial heartland of Spain to an extent that no other community does.

[icc]

Overseas ballots will start being counted tomorrow. There are 233,688 ballots to be counted, around 10% of the 2,3 million voters registered overseas.

So up a bit from last time (7.4%), but not terribly different.

[Velasco]

Catalonia comprises about 16% of the population of Spain, whereas Scotland comprises about 8% of the United Kingdom's population.

Catalonia is more economically and demographically important, but Scotland is far more strategically and militarily important, makes up a bigger part of the country's territory and is more important for national identity. Spain would still be Spain without Catalonia while Britain would be reduced to the old Kingdom of England (plus six Irish counties which would be an even more pointless appendix to the state than they are now). I suppose you could still call it the United Kingdom (of England, Wales and Northern Ireland..) and keep the Saltire in the Union Jack, but somehow that would be a bit phony. Losing Scotland would make the UK a Greater England whereas losing Catalonia wouldn't make Spain a Greater Castille.  

I don't think Spain would be still Spain without Catalonia. I know that most of the people abroad tend to identify Spain to Castile, in a similar way non-British people often identify the UK to England. Castile was the most powerful of the medieval kingdoms that made up Spain, but Catalonia was the most important part of what once was the Crown of Aragon. Spain is not a compact nation state, but rather it's a state with a plurality of nations and a great deal of regional particularism. Spain without Catalonia would be little more than a rump state centered in Madrid,  I have little doubt about it

Catalonia is only 6.3% of Spain's territory, it seems bizarre to claim the remaining 93.7% of the country would be a rump state, a remnant of a once much larger state. This isn't post-Trianon Hungary we're talking about.

Both Britain and Spain have multilayered identities, but while Spain includes a lot of distinct cultures it is stil not a state that's defined as a union of separate countries the way the United Kingdom is, a view that's reflected in its national flag and other symbols. Losing Scotland (which would likely also lead to the exit of Northern Ireland) would require a redefinition of what the nation is which just doesn't seem like a realistic prospect in a post-Catalan secession Spain.

The Basques and Catalans may view the Basque Country and Catalonia as countries, but constitutionally they're mere regions. The UK would lose a whole geo-strategic space without Scotland (the North Atlantic) while Spain would still be a Mediterranean country without Catalonia.

btw I don't think foreigners view Spain as Castille, which isn't that well known outside of Latin America.  Spain is mostly seen as Madrid, a lot of empty space in the interior and a ring of coastal regions with different cultures and sometimes local languages in a half circle around it plus some tourist islands. It then varies how many of those regions people know about, with Andalusia and "the Barcelona region"/Catalonia being the best known. If anything foreigners will tend to underestimate how many people actually live in central/interior Spain outside of the Madrid metro area.

Catalonia has roughly 16% of the population and 18% of the GDP contained in 6% of the territory. The loss of Catalonia would cause a considerable economic impact, not to mention the possible domino effect (Basque Country would likely follow) and the political imbalances.

As for the origins of Spain and the components of the Spanish state, there existed various entities prior its establishment. By the end of the middle ages, the Iberian peninsula was divided in several kingdoms: Castile,  Aragon, Navarre, Portugal and Granada (a muslim kingdom remainder of Al Andalus). Medieval kingdoms are not equivalent to modern national entities, but anyway it's important to know how things happened. Originally Spain (the Hispanic Monarchy) was merely a personal union of crowns, established by the marriage between the Queen of Castile (Isabel) and the King of Aragon (Fernando). During the Habsburg period (XVI and XVII centuries) the constituent parts of the Hispanic Monarchy, including the Iberian kingdoms and other dynastic possesions (Flanders, Naples, etcetera), retained their institutions. During the War of Sucession  (1700-1714) the different parts of the Crown of Aragon (it was a confederation of sorts) backed the Habsburgs, while Castile supported the Bourbons. On the victory of the Bourbons, the particular institutions of Aragon, Catalonia, Valencia and the Balearic Islands were suppressed. The Spain's coat of arms features the symbols of Castile, Leon,  the Crown of Aragon,  Navarre and Granada.

On a separate note, unlike Scotland, neither Catalonia nor the Basque Country were kingdoms. However, both territories had their proper laws and institutions. The Catalan Counties were part of the Crown of Aragon and the Basque Provinces were in the Kingdom of Castile.  

 Currently the Spanish constitution recognizes the existence of "regions" and "nationalities". That is a compromise formula that recognizes Spain's diversity without recognizing the existence different "countries". The recognition of "historical nationalities" somehow implies admitting that there's a plurality of nations or national identities within Spain, even though this is disputed. Many people is unwilling to consider Spain "a nation of nations" and claim "there is no other nation than the Spanish nation"

In sum, this is a complex question that is unsolved in our constitutional system.

[EastAnglianLefty]

I would argue that the United Kingdom (or at least Britain - Northern Ireland is a very different question) is a Greater England and has always been so - the increased support for Scottish nationalism in recent decades is about Scottish voters identifying much less with that identity. That's not to say that Scottish independence wouldn't feel very uncomfortable for a lot of people, but it wouldn't change the fundamental make-up of the UK.

And no, Scottish independence would not lead to an upsurge in Yorkshire nationalism. Put down the crack pipe.

[Cassius]

And no, Scottish independence would not lead to an upsurge in Yorkshire nationalism. Put down the crack pipe.

The Northern Independence Party being founded by a lecturer at the University of Sussex was very on brand it has to be said.