Why Won't Bobby Casey Debate Santorum?

[Smash255]

Easy answer

If Casey opens his mouth, he will lose.

Interesting news I heard though.  I intern at my local Republican congressman's office, and we were discussing Casey vs Santorum.  I said right now Casey is leading by about 10-15pts, but everyone in the office was telling me that Santorum internal polling had it much closer.  Was this just Republican spin, or is it actually closer than we think?

Not exactly.  casey is still ahead no matter what.  Santorum would benefit from a debate no question, but it won't be enough to knock off Casey

Would it be nice if he debated?  Yes, but he is ahead of the game at this point and its not something he needs to do in order to win.

[12th Doctor]

If I were the candidate and my campaign manager told me not to debate, I would tell them to shut up.  A real leader doesn't want to be "handled" and that is exactly the point.

Well that is a bit of a dodging the question, isn't it?  Unlike a Presidential debate, Senatorial debates are not as widely seen.  There is no great outcry for a debate (except from the Santorum campaign).  It would honestly be foolhardy for Casey to risk his lead.

Also, do you truly believe the measure of a leader is how well they do in a debate?  If that's the case then how the heck can you possibly support Bush?  The man has the debating skill of a drunken cowboy.

No, it isn't.  That is my answer to your question.  You just don't like my answer.

No, an answer would be "yes I would always advise my candidate to debate" or "no, I wouldn't risk the lead".  Would you tell Bob Dole to debate Mario Cuomo?

You're clearly a fervent Santorum supporter.  Instead of whining about the fact that Casey is running a good campaign, maybe you should ask yourself why there is so little support for Santorum.  The answer is simple.  Santorum has proven he's an extremist.  PA doesn't like extremists.  We like moderates.  John Heinz, Bob Casey, Arlen Specter .... these are the type of politicians PA elects.  Santorum is closer to the values of Alabama or Utah.

Easy answer

If Casey opens his mouth, he will lose.

Interesting news I heard though.  I intern at my local Republican congressman's office, and we were discussing Casey vs Santorum.  I said right now Casey is leading by about 10-15pts, but everyone in the office was telling me that Santorum internal polling had it much closer.  Was this just Republican spin, or is it actually closer than we think?

Hmmm... Interesting the TD should show up, cause this gives gives me a chance to come up with an absolutley obvious answer to your question, since you can't seem to understand the one that I have provided.

When TD was running for the CDP nomination and and I was his campign manager, TD was concerned about debating, because he thought that his possitions would cost him votes with the party.

I told him that I thought the people had a right to hear his views, as compared to Yates, even if it might cost us.

[Nym90]

If Santorum were as far ahead as Casey is now, he probably wouldn't debate, either.

I think Casey should debate, definitely. I support debates in all elections and campaigns regardless of the margin in the polls. But looking at it from strictly a political standpoint, he shouldn't debate, as not debating will hurt him a lot less than if he debated and got his butt kicked. When you have the lead, it makes sense to not take risks.

Santorum is certainly free to make an issue out of Casey's refusal to debate, and if the voters really want a debate, they'll convince Casey to debate by abandoning support of him over this issue.

[Wakie]

Well Soulty, I don't think you've got a very long career in politics then.  Casey and Santorum are scheduled for 1 debate (before Labor Day).  The Santorum people will whine and cry that this isn't enough.

[12th Doctor]

Well Soulty, I don't think you've got a very long career in politics then.  

Well, good.  I would rather go down in a blaze of glory doing the right thing than be President of the World simply because I lied, cheated, stole and pussed my way out, to the top.

And another thing... your question is totally irrelivant for the reason you obviously couldn't figure out, which is that I would never be manger to, nor would I ever be the candidate who was so wanting of a spine that he could be bent with a pair of tweasers.

[Wakie]

Well Soulty, I don't think you've got a very long career in politics then.  

Well, good.  I would rather go down in a blaze of glory doing the right thing than be President of the World simply because I lied, cheated, stole and pussed my way out, to the top.

And another thing... your question is totally irrelivant for the reason you obviously couldn't figure out, which is that I would never be manger to, nor would I ever be the candidate who was so wanting of a spine that he could be bent with a pair of tweasers.

Well then how do you support Rick Santorum?

In '94 his people refused to debate Wofford more than once.  Funny that you (and his people) are critical of Casey for doing the same.

When he first came into Congress Santorum was part of the famous "Gang of 7" who were so critical Congressional perks from lobbyists.  But now he's under investigation for receiving some of these same perks from his work with Jack Abramoff.

In 1990 he attacked Doug Walgren for maintaining a residence in Washington (arguing he was out of touch w/ voters) while Congress was in session.  But now that he does the same thing (not even maintaining a mailing address in PA) it is ok.  Yeah, that's not hypocrisy.

Tricky Ricky flip flops on issues.  In a 2002 Washington Times op-ed article Santorum wrote that intelligent design "is a legitimate scientific theory that should be taught in science classes."  But during an interview with National Public Radio in 2005, Santorum stated "I'm not comfortable with intelligent design being taught in the science classroom."

[12th Doctor]

In '94 his people refused to debate Wofford more than once.  Funny that you (and his people) are critical of Casey for doing the same.

What in the Hell are you talkign about?  Santorum's debate with Wofford was on the the key moments of that camapaign.

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Under investigation does not mean indicted.  Nor is this nessesarily contradictory, because Santorum spear-headed piles of reform legislation that has since been passed.  Fact is, it is a much less corrupt culture now.

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No, it isn't.  The major difference is not only between House and Senate, but also now and then.  First off, it is expected of House members to constantly be in touch with their districts, and it is easy because the average House member serves of one committee, only.  Constitutionally speaking, the founders had intended the House to be the responsive branch.  Santorum is in the Senate now.  His job entails a lot more.  He serves on serveral committees and has to be in Washington more.  Also, back then, technology did not allow for the opportunites to keep in touch over distances, like we have now.  Unlike back in 1990, Santorum can easily get news papers from PA, hear voters concerns, conduct conference calls and go vote all before brunch.

Another concern is that Santorum has a rather large family that, for obvious reasons, he wants to be around for.  Walren did not.

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Maybe he just had a change of heart.  It does happen to people from time-to-time.  Or, possibly, there was some confusion on meaning.  To Catholics, intellegent design is the idea that science is correct, but God is the ultimate creator.  To fundamentalists and most Protestants, it means strict Biblical teaching.  Anyway, I highly doubt Santorum woudl support the later, because that is absolutely opposed to Catholic teaching.

I'm kinda disappointed that that was the best you could do.  Least you could have done was brought up Amtrack, or something.

[Ebowed]

I hadn't heard of this corpse issue before but I can't believe it's been turned into a political issue.  That's just sick!  He lost a child, and while what he did was very strange you have to realize that people react in different ways to death and was merely his way of bring a sort closure to the death of his son.

[DarthKosh]

I hadn't heard of this corpse issue before but I can't believe it's been turned into a political issue.  That's just sick!  He lost a child, and while what he did was very strange you have to realize that people react in different ways to death and was merely his way of bring a sort closure to the death of his son.

What Santorum did was sick.  It was not grieving.  If anything it might have been a stunt.

[Wakie]

Soulty, your bias is so ridiculously blatant.  Seriously man, you've gone to blind partisianship.


DEBATES
You started this thread complaining that Casey "won't debate".  But the reality is that there is a debate scheduled for right before Labor Day.  Personally I think this is an unnecessary risk by the Casey camp, but hey, I'm not the one calling the shots.  Is it just that you feel one debate isn't enough?  If so then why didn't Santorum and Wofford debate more than once?


RESIDENCY ISSUES
You defend Santorum's residency hypocrisy by saying the difference is Senate vs House and Now vs Then.  That is totally ridiculous.

Number 1, PA is literally a 2 hr drive from DC.  Joe Biden commutes every day from Delaware on the train.  Pittsburgh is 4 hrs from Leesburg, VA.  I'm not saying Santorum should be in PA every night, but he could certainly spend a little time there when Congress is out (and not just on election years).

Number 2, Senators should be just as receptive to their states as House members should be to their districts.  If Santorum didn't feel he was up to the task then he shouldn't have run for office.

Number 3, 1990 was not the dark ages.  It was possible to get newspapers from out of state.  It was possible to do conference calls.  It was possible to hear voters concerns.

Number 4, it is HIGHLY hypocritical for Santorum to make a plank of his first campaign an attack on a politician for maintaining a residence in Washington while Congress is in session AND THEN for him (Santorum) to literally move to Washington full time!

Number 5, don't give me this BS about Santorum having a "large family".  That was a decision he and his wife made.  If it prevents him from doing his job then he either (A) shouldn't have had so many kids or (B) shouldn't have pursued a career inconsistent with his family plans.  Aren't Republicans usually the ones who argue that a poor person with many kids is personally at fault?  Well, a Senator with many kids is ALSO personally at fault.


ABRAMOFF-SANTORUM TIES
The relationship between Jack Abramoff and the Republican leadership is very well documented.  But only a few members of Congress have been identified as having been close enough to him to have actually been aware of his illicit dealings.  Tricky Ricky has been named as one of those.  Quite ironic considering the rhetoric from his early days in Washington.


FLIP-FLOPS
I think this is hilarious.  During the Presidential campaign Republicans refused to accept that Kerry could change his mind on an issue.  But right now that is your excuse for Santorum???  Come on.


BRING A CORPSE HOME
I love the defense of this action.  If you want to argue if this is ok or not that is up to you, but this IS what he did.  His wife wrote about it in her book.  They brought a corpse home and introduced it to their children.  Then they slept with it in the home.  At best this is pretty darn gruesome and well beyond normal behavior.


WHINING ABOUT TOUGH CAMPAIGNING
I love hearing the complaints about Casey running a tough campaign.  Isn't that what GW Bush has done in 2000 and 2004??  You guys were ok with him attacking his opponents through proxy, why is it wrong in a Senate race?  Also, wasn't it Rick Santorum who defended his attacks on Ron Klink by saying "politics in this state is a contact sport"?


Hold both sides to the same standards Soulty.  Enough blind partisanship.  Casey is a moderate, pro-life Dem.  Santorum is an extremist and mildly insane.

[??????????]

Progress and Darth Kosh proving themselves to be idiots again and not understanding mourning rituals.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

Man, this thread is hilarious.

Guess what, it really doesn't matter. Most people only watch presidential debates. And even those don't effect votes that much. Rememeber how much of a disaster Bush was in the first debate? If he could win after that, Santorum is not going to get a 10+ point boost due to one debate that maybe 2% of voters will watch.

Probably just Republicans setting themselves up for whine mode when Santorum loses. "Oh he would've won if this had happened, had this, blah blah blah." It doesn't matter, and if you think Casey refusing to debate is going to bother me or any Democrat one bit when he's sworn in, you're wrong.

[12th Doctor]

DEBATES
You started this thread complaining that Casey "won't debate".  But the reality is that there is a debate scheduled for right before Labor Day.  Personally I think this is an unnecessary risk by the Casey camp, but hey, I'm not the one calling the shots.  Is it just that you feel one debate isn't enough?  If so then why didn't Santorum and Wofford debate more than once?

It was because they couldn't agree on debate rules.  Anyway....

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Hey, guess what?  Do you know how many times my friend, who is chairman of the Santorum campaign here has seen Santorum in the past two years?  I assure you, many, many, many, many times.  You know why?  Because Santorum spends almost every weekend in some part of this state, whether it is Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Harrisburg, Erie, Altoona, Scranton, whereever.  He just prefers to have his family in the place he is the other 4-5 days a week, so he can be a father and his time home can be spent working with constituents.

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Read the Federalist Papers.

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I'm simply saying that all this stuff is far easier now.

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Don't say Congress as though the House and Senate are the same exact thing.  They aren't.  They are two vastly different bodies and have two vastly different functions and have vastly different responsibilities.  He was running for a House seat.  He now has a Senate seat.  There is a difference.

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This is just flat out too stupid to deserve a serious response.

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Well, hey.  At least they he hasn't taken millions from the people like the Democrats did in the House Banking Scandal, and a lot of those guys are guys you love, like Teddy Kennedy.  Whatever Santorum's relationship with Abramoff, I am sure that he has never gotten cars, or houses, or had family members palces on prominent boards in exchange for votes, which is what he was opposed to back in the old days when that kinda abuse was par for the course.

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Big difference between changing your mind on an issue about what shoudl be taught in schools, esspecially when the definitions are not clear, as I pointed out, and changing your mind on supplying US troops in Iraq during an election season.

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You and everyone else can shut the f**k up about this.  The guy lost his new born baby.  And instead of throwing it in a dumpser, they had an emotional attachment to it and decided not to totally disregard it.  I know that liberals can't imagine having an emotional attachment to a baby, since they are barely human, anyway, and not human, certainly, before they cross that arbeitrary threshhold of being out of the womb... but some people, you know, acctually care about their kids, and some people get emotionally distressed when a baby dies, and back in the day (about 50 years ago, not even 100) practices like this were not in the least bit uncommon, esspecially among Catholics.

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The problem is that Casey isn't running a tough campaign.  I tough camapign is when the candidate goes out there and says "Here is what I think.  And now I am going ot talk about my opponents."

Casey's cmapaign, if he shows up at all is, "You remember who my daddy is, and if you think I am my daddy, because of the name, then I am not gonna try to change you mind.  Anyway, my opponents is a bad, bad man... and here is a special interest group that is gonna tell you all about it."

Santorum did not hide in a bunker and let other peopel do his work for him.  Not ever.  Which is why he has a reputation for being a good campaigner.

And your point about Bush is idiotic, because Bush also put himself out there and never ran as "GHW Bush's kid" when he was going for President.

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I am holding both sides to the same standards.  I would ask you and your whole little ultra-angry wing of your party to acctually develop some standards, because, guess what, attacking one Senator because he did something "odd" when a child died and another for being too liked by the otherside is not going to help you guys in the long run.

[12th Doctor]

Progress and Darth Kosh proving themselves to be idiots again and not understanding mourning rituals.

Ding Ding Ding


As I said, this kinda thing was not at all uncommon in the Catholic community not ever 50 years ago.  Anyone here ever heard of a wake?

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I have never heard of anyone other than Santorum doing something like that.

[12th Doctor]

I have never heard of anyone other than Santorum doing something like that.

Well, something called a "wake" is pretty common custom in most Irish and Italian, and some Polish, Catholic communities.  Though it isn't normally done anymore, because everyone has been so dreadfully "Americanized".

Anyway, what they used to do when someone died was take em to be embaled, put in a coffin, then the corpse woudl immediatly be brought back to the house and set in a room, with the casket open, and there it would stay for up to a week.  Family members woudl talk to it.  Touch it.  Leave food for it.  Sometimes they would even do stuff like bring it out and dance with it, or put it on the couch, or put hats on it, and such.  And yes, this practice was very common.

When a baby died in a home, before hospital births were common, it was not at all uncommon to keep the child for a day or two.  The mother and other family member woudl hold it... etc.

Psychologists acctually theorize that this was healthy for the seperation process, as studies done among Irish and Italian communities say a much healthier veiw taken of both death and the loss of a loved one.

[I spent the winter writing songs about getting better]

I'm pretty sure even my relatives on the Catholic side of my family haven't done such a thing. I should ask.

[NewFederalist]

 I would rather go down in a blaze of glory doing the right thing than be President of the World simply because I lied, cheated, stole and pussed my way out, to the top.

Chris, if you really feel that way why are you a Republican? (Or a Democrat for that matter.) The two dominant political parties both suck and are filled with unprincipled people who are more concerned with the next election than the next generation. There are a few exceptions but they are very rare.

[12th Doctor]

 I would rather go down in a blaze of glory doing the right thing than be President of the World simply because I lied, cheated, stole and pussed my way out, to the top.

Chris, if you really feel that way why are you a Republican? (Or a Democrat for that matter.) The two dominant political parties both suck and are filled with unprincipled people who are more concerned with the next election than the next generation. There are a few exceptions but they are very rare.

Because the Republican Party is honestly the closest outfit to what my views are, inspite of its problems.

[Wakie]

It was because they couldn't agree on debate rules.  Anyway....

Uh huh ... sure ... right ... yep.

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1- Is it shocking you have close ties to the Santorum campaign?  Not at all.  This explaining the extreme partisanship.

2- Is it shocking that Santorum's campaign chairman has seen him?  Not at all.  It is totally ridiculous that you seem to think having a campaign chairman see a candidate in an election year means that the candidate is "in touch".

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Read the Federalist Papers.
[/quote]
If you feel Senators shouldn't listen to their constituents then this might explain your support of Santorum.

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I'm simply saying that all this stuff is far easier now.
[/quote]

It is also easier and safer to travel now than it was 16 years ago.

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BS.  This isn't about job responsibilities.  This is about travel time.  The travel time is the same.

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This is just flat out too stupid to deserve a serious response.
[/quote]

No, it is just that your argument that Santorum has a big family was idiotic.

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I'm not even going to bother to quote your response because it amounts to "you have some guys who are worse".  Yeah, that's the standard by which we should evaluate Senators ... just don't be the worst one.

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There's a big difference between doing what Santorum did and Kerry did.  Santorum totally changed his tune on an issue.  Kerry voted against a bill because he felt it needed to be reworked (there were too many non-defense pork barrell spending things tied to the bill).

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You and everyone else can shut the f**k up about this.  The guy lost his new born baby.  And instead of throwing it in a dumpser, they had an emotional attachment to it and decided not to totally disregard it.  I know that liberals can't imagine having an emotional attachment to a baby, since they are barely human, anyway, and not human, certainly, before they cross that arbeitrary threshhold of being out of the womb... but some people, you know, acctually care about their kids, and some people get emotionally distressed when a baby dies, and back in the day (about 50 years ago, not even 100) practices like this were not in the least bit uncommon, esspecially among Catholics.
[/quote]

1- I'm a Catholic.  Have been my entire life.  Father is Polish, mother is part Irish.  Grew up part of my life in Bloomfield (the major Italian neighborhood of Pittsburgh).  I have NEVER heard of someone bringing a corpse home for the night.  I've been to more than a few wakes in my life.  The body is always left in the funeral home.

2- When did I, or anyone, suggest a dumpster?  Never.  All we're saying is that bringing a corpse home for the night is, at best, creepy and weird.

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Sorry, I've been to many Casey events and I've never heard him mention his father.  He doesn't have to because the Republicans are reminding everyone who his father is when they whine about it.

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He most certainly DID run as GHW's kid in 2000.  Otherwise what was he known for being?  2 term Gov of Texas?  A state with a weak executive branch?  Owner of a baseball team?  No, he was only a candidate for President because of his last name.

And if you want to talk about letting someone else fighting dirty, how about his people's attacks on McCain's family?  Or the BS Swift Boat group?  All the while Bush pretended he was 'above it all'.

Casey is running an excellent campaign.  He's a moderate who offers a vision consistent with the values of PA voters.  Is it surprising he's kicking Santorum's butt?

[12th Doctor]

Most of this isn't worth answering, but I'll just swing at a few things here.

1- Is it shocking you have close ties to the Santorum campaign?  Not at all.  This explaining the extreme partisanship.

Are you suprised that someone who is young, connected and politically interested would know other people who are young, connected and politically interested?

Not only that, but I wasn't indoctrinated into the thing.  I support Santorum, because I support him, and that is why I am involved.  Where as you seem to indicate that my connection is the cause of my "extreme partisanship".  Sorry, I have a brain, and that brain led me to make the discision of being involved.  I didn't just knee jerk into it, the way that you and your rabid partisan friends are knee jerk attacking Santorum on any straw that you can grasp at.

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Hey, dipsh**t... did it occure to you that he was not always the chairman of the campaign?  He only got the job about a month ago, and he got it due to the fact that he attended my of the events where the Senator was present and established connections with him.  Once again, you label the effect as the cause.  Didn't they teach you anything in elementary science class?

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Hmmm... no I didn't say that.  I think what I was saying earlier was that House members are supposed to be constantly connected with their constituents, because the is the institutional role of the House.  I'm going to use a lovely little analogy that most people who have taken a basic government class have heard of.

You see, as Hamilton described, Congress is a lot like tea.  The cup is like the House, where everything is hot and energized, and all the brewing and mixing takes place.  The saucer is like the Senate, where the tea is allowed to spill over and gather, so that it might cool and be drank.

The point is, the House is responsive to the immediate concerns of the people.  It is the demogougic (not sure if that is a word, but) body.  The Senate, on the other hand, is the thinking body.  It is the body that is meant to be removed, partially, from the sphere of public influence.

It is a real shame that this, for a large part, no longer holds as true, because the government worked a lot better when more Senators knew their rule as statemen and not demogouges.

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But it doesn't take any less time, does it?

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Ummm... yeah it is, since the fact remains that Santorums job responsibilities are much more demanding as a Senator than as a House members.

[Wakie]

I didn't just knee jerk into it, the way that you and your rabid partisan friends are knee jerk attacking Santorum on any straw that you can grasp at.

I've had 12 years of Santorum to decide he doesn't represent my views as a PA voter.  I also believe he doesn't represent most PA voters.  If I really wanted to attack EVERY thing about Santorum we'd be talking about his defense of steroid usage.

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Such a pleasant and intellectual response from the Santorum camp.  Come on, lets keep it civil.  The name calling is silly and fails to promote any rational dialogue.

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I would like the entire government to act in the best interest of the people ... all the people.  But that isn't how it happens.  Senators are given more responsibilities than members of the House but they are not EXCLUDED from their responsibilities as representatives of their respective states.

The fact remains, Santorum criticized Walgren for maintaining a 2nd home.  But now he refuses to hold himself to the same standard to which he held Walgren.  You argue that increased responsibilities excuse him.  I disagree.  Either you are capable of doing your job or you're not.  In life you make decisions and trade offs.  If Santorum didn't feel he was up to the task of being a Senator he shouldn't have run for office.

[GOP = Terrorists]

As I said, this kinda thing was not at all uncommon in the Catholic community not ever 50 years ago.  Anyone here ever heard of a wake?

Rofl yes tons of wakes start with sleeping with the dead corpse in your bed and are continued at home by bringing the corpse home to play with it.  Catholics don't bring corpses home to play with any more tnan any other religious group.  Why?  Cause most Catholics are not bat sh*t insane like Santorum.

[12th Doctor]

I've had 12 years of Santorum to decide he doesn't represent my views as a PA voter.  I also believe he doesn't represent most PA voters.  If I really wanted to attack EVERY thing about Santorum we'd be talking about his defense of steroid usage.

Way to attack without sounding as though you were doing it.  A slightly less intellegent person might not have been able to pick up on that.  Slighly less intellegent than a dog, that is.

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Nice way to skirt around what I was acctually saying.  Guess I have only myself to blame for that, for giving you the oppotunity.  Anyway, dodge the issue, typical respnse from the Casey camp.

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Bt being less engaged he is living up to his responsibilities as a Senator.  And all I have to say to your idea abotu what a Senator shoudl be is that I am glad you weren't one of the founders.

[DarthKosh]

Progress and Darth Kosh proving themselves to be idiots again and not understanding mourning rituals.

Ding Ding Ding


As I said, this kinda thing was not at all uncommon in the Catholic community not ever 50 years ago.  Anyone here ever heard of a wake?

I am catholic and I have never heard of bringing a dead baby home and doing stuff with it.