DC Unrest Megathread
       |           

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?
May 29, 2024, 12:04:45 AM
News: Election Simulator 2.0 Released. Senate/Gubernatorial maps, proportional electoral votes, and more - Read more

  Talk Elections
  General Politics
  U.S. General Discussion (Moderators: The Dowager Mod, Chancellor Tanterterg)
  DC Unrest Megathread
« previous next »
Pages: 1 ... 131 132 133 134 135 [136] 137 138 139 140 141 ... 197
Author Topic: DC Unrest Megathread  (Read 274647 times)
TiltsAreUnderrated
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 9,776


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3375 on: January 08, 2021, 09:59:28 PM »

Reminder that many people on this very forum cited that poll earlier about how 45% or so of Republicans seemingly supported the attacks, and in the process acted prematurely before things settled.

Using this poll is also "premature." Recall how opinion shifted in the weeks after the Floyd killing - what matters far more than where public opinion stands is (a)how salient an issue is and (b)how easy it is to change the stance held by a critical mass.

If an initial putsch had somehow succeeded, or otherwise played out differently, I do wonder how many people would have ultimately accepted it as just. I still wouldn't rule out partisans increasingly backing the protesters as polarisation sets in, especially if Trump et al. choose to dig their heels in over it.

As with the rest of this presidency, it is crappy execution providing a useful learning experience for future, competent authoritarians.
Logged
emailking
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,765
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3376 on: January 08, 2021, 10:03:28 PM »

I have to say I'm pretty uncomfortable with Google / Apple play store removing Parler from their downloads (in Apple's case, threatening removal in 24 hours). I think these tech companies may be flexing their muscles too much here.

Free market. Let the rednecks learn to code and build their own platform to spout bullsh**t from. It's all feeding this conspiracy nonsense. They use out of context memes as "I'd die for this" evidence and I'm over it.


I'm not a huge fan of the free market, but even taking into account that bad faith argument: Google is a huge monopoly and has almost total control over their market. How the hell is anything supposed to compete with Apple or Google?

And the problem is not even that Google is a business monopoly either. It would be one thing if they had a monopoly in wheat or Christmas trees, but their monopoly allows them to control how people think and behave.

Which is strange to me. Who uses google for anything other than as a shortcut to find a Wikipedia article? Even youtube, who actually clicks on ads or video recommendations?

Like hundreds of millions of people.
Logged
SevenEleven
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,603


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3377 on: January 08, 2021, 10:04:32 PM »

I have to say I'm pretty uncomfortable with Google / Apple play store removing Parler from their downloads (in Apple's case, threatening removal in 24 hours). I think these tech companies may be flexing their muscles too much here.

Free market. Let the rednecks learn to code and build their own platform to spout bullsh**t from. It's all feeding this conspiracy nonsense. They use out of context memes as "I'd die for this" evidence and I'm over it.


I'm not a huge fan of the free market, but even taking into account that bad faith argument: Google is a huge monopoly and has almost total control over their market. How the hell is anything supposed to compete with Apple or Google?

And the problem is not even that Google is a business monopoly either. It would be one thing if they had a monopoly in wheat or Christmas trees, but their monopoly allows them to control how people think and behave.

Which is strange to me. Who uses google for anything other than as a shortcut to find a Wikipedia article? Even youtube, who actually clicks on ads or video recommendations?

Like hundreds of millions of people.

Probably the same subset of people who don't have an avatar. 🤷
Logged
Unconditional Surrender Truman
Harry S Truman
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,139


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3378 on: January 08, 2021, 10:06:25 PM »

Problem with the QAnon polls is that there were numerous overanalysis problems with them, even if the wording was well-done (frequently it wasn't). A ton of Republicans never really knew what QAnon actually truly was deep down either, and polls I believe generally showed awareness of QAnon to be highest among Democrats.
Well, not exactly.

Quote from: USA Today
A new poll finds that half of President Donald Trump's supporters believe in QAnon, a baseless conspiracy theory that has been repeatedly disproven and deemed by the FBI as an extremist threat, even if they do not know it by name.

[...]

The level of support increases when questions were phrased based on the conspiracy theory's core beliefs.

When posed as individual parts of the conspiracy — namely, that Democrats run an elite child sex-trafficking "cabal" and that President Trump is making efforts to dismantle it — about half of Trump supporters, whether they'd heard of QAnon or not, said they believe in both parts.

Quote from: YouGov poll
Do you believe that top Democrats are involved in elite child sex-trafficking rings?

Donald Trump supporters
50% - Yes
12% - No

Of course, these numbers might be off to a degree, and the wording is somewhat vague —but it is clear that a large number of Republicans, by all accounts a plurality, believe national Democratic leaders are involved in some kind of conspiracy revolving around child sex trafficking.


I do think it's worth pointing that the numbers are lower in percentage than most polls that began on the 6th show it, but also that is kind of besides the point, because this is still a huge number.
Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.
Logged
Frodo
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 24,674
United States


WWW Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3379 on: January 08, 2021, 10:07:35 PM »




Capitol Police officer who died when mob stormed the Capitol was proud to serve his nation, family said.
Click here to read article ... https://us.cnn.com/2021/01/08/us/brian-sicknick-death/index.html

Rest in Peace.

I hope the MAGA movement understands that from this point onward, law enforcement is going to treat them as brutally and ruthlessly as it does Black Lives Matter protesters and Antifa.  Blood calls for blood.  What a way to alienate a powerful ally.  
Logged
Buffalo Mayor Young Kim
LVScreenssuck
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,449


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3380 on: January 08, 2021, 10:08:22 PM »

Problem with the QAnon polls is that there were numerous overanalysis problems with them, even if the wording was well-done (frequently it wasn't). A ton of Republicans never really knew what QAnon actually truly was deep down either, and polls I believe generally showed awareness of QAnon to be highest among Democrats.
Well, not exactly.

Quote from: USA Today
A new poll finds that half of President Donald Trump's supporters believe in QAnon, a baseless conspiracy theory that has been repeatedly disproven and deemed by the FBI as an extremist threat, even if they do not know it by name.

[...]

The level of support increases when questions were phrased based on the conspiracy theory's core beliefs.

When posed as individual parts of the conspiracy — namely, that Democrats run an elite child sex-trafficking "cabal" and that President Trump is making efforts to dismantle it — about half of Trump supporters, whether they'd heard of QAnon or not, said they believe in both parts.

Quote from: YouGov poll
Do you believe that top Democrats are involved in elite child sex-trafficking rings?

Donald Trump supporters
50% - Yes
12% - No

Of course, these numbers might be off to a degree, and the wording is somewhat vague —but it is clear that a large number of Republicans, by all accounts a plurality, believe national Democratic leaders are involved in some kind of conspiracy revolving around child sex trafficking.

Well the issue is not so much the people who literally believe this, which I think is rather small, as those who say this as a tribal marker and go along with the cosplay revolutionaries.
Logged
Alben Barkley
KYWildman
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 19,284
United States


Political Matrix
E: -2.97, S: -5.74

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3381 on: January 08, 2021, 10:10:10 PM »

We had people with Nazi and Confederate symbols storm the Capitol, something the actual Nazis and Confederates were never able to do. It’s just crazy.
Logged
emailking
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,765
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3382 on: January 08, 2021, 10:12:36 PM »

Probably the same subset of people who don't have an avatar. 🤷

Independent as I've said. Dig into my history if you want to see where I've from. I've given it away before. Check how long I've been on the site while you're at it. Wink
Logged
Gass3268
Moderators
Atlas Star
*****
Posts: 27,545
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3383 on: January 08, 2021, 10:19:44 PM »

Logged
emailking
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 14,765
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3384 on: January 08, 2021, 10:24:27 PM »

Maybe he changed the name. It would say suspended if he was.
Logged
President Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
Atlas Politician
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 41,788
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3385 on: January 08, 2021, 10:24:28 PM »

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.
If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.
Logged
Former President tack50
tack50
Atlas Politician
Atlas Icon
*****
Posts: 11,882
Spain


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3386 on: January 08, 2021, 10:27:10 PM »
« Edited: January 08, 2021, 10:36:45 PM by Senator tack50 (Lab-Lincoln) »



Most Android phones can easily be configured to install non Play Store apps, so while a blow, it is far from a death sentence. It's just a checkbox in the phone settings, I've even done it myself.

Apple removing it from their store would do much more harm given jailbreaking your iPhone is much harder though. Also if I am not mistaken Apple holds a huge portion of the US market, certainly more than in most European countries; so Apple banning it would do a lot more

You think tech-illiterate boomers can do this? Although TBF they can just access Parler through the phone's browser, unless Parler's ISP stops carrying it.

I think some people underestimate the tech literacy rate of the average boomer. Remember the average QAnon cultist is a person probably in their 50s or 60s. That means they were born anywhere from 1952 to 1970. The younger group, especially those that are just a tiny bit younger than the ones I described, would have grown up in the 80s as kids.

Those "Younger QAnon" definitely used up a computer at school and later when they entered the job market. Computers that mind you, were a lot more user unfriendly than they are now.

I've certainly seen some takes that the group with "peak tech literacy" isn't actually the super young like you might expect, but rather the slightly older group of people who was born in the mid-late 80s and grew up in the late 90s, early 2000s. Young enough that computers were everywhere, old enough that tech still made you think a little

But for the illiterates yeah there is always the phone browser
Logged
tjstarling
Rookie
**
Posts: 196


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3387 on: January 08, 2021, 10:28:41 PM »

Reminder that many people on this very forum cited that poll earlier about how 45% or so of Republicans seemingly supported the attacks, and in the process acted prematurely before things settled.

Using this poll is also "premature." Recall how opinion shifted in the weeks after the Floyd killing - what matters far more than where public opinion stands is (a)how salient an issue is and (b)how easy it is to change the stance held by a critical mass.

If an initial putsch had somehow succeeded, or otherwise played out differently, I do wonder how many people would have ultimately accepted it as just. I still wouldn't rule out partisans increasingly backing the protesters as polarisation sets in, especially if Trump et al. choose to dig their heels in over it.

As with the rest of this presidency, it is crappy execution providing a useful learning experience for future, competent authoritarians.

And just like after the Floyd killing the media and other forces have once again taken a moment where there is (mostly) a consensus of outrage and a recognition that a system or a current way of doing things is broken and has, instead, turned it into a situation where they chose to paint with too broad a brush in an attempt to paint those who don’t fit into their cultural or ideological bubble as degenerate enablers.

Before we saw the case where the recognition that police reform and racial injustice was a problem that we as a nation either ignored or swept under a rug. That wasn’t good enough. In the weeks after it became silly season where wearing certain sneakers meant you failed to acknowledge your white privilege. And, once again, the media folks overplayed their hand and people went back to their tribal holes.

Now, instead of focusing on the events of Wednesday and the troubling words those who instigated the acts, we once again have a situation where certain actors and institutions want to shame everyone they can tangentially associate with those responsible. Instead of encouraging and welcoming the evolution of people who were perhaps once supportive of Trump or the GOP who now say “you know what, this is it for me, this isn’t what I want and things do need to be different”, I’ve seen a lot of shaming of these people with “why now? Where have you been for four years?”. While it may have a basis in truth, it’s unhelpful. And, once again, I’ve already started to see people slink back to their traditional partisan posture.

Logged
Buffalo Mayor Young Kim
LVScreenssuck
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,449


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3388 on: January 08, 2021, 10:29:52 PM »

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.
If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.
They’ve already escalated well past the point of trying not to provoke them. If you want them to back down now, swift and decisive force is the only way to go.
Logged
Obama-Biden Democrat
Zyzz
Junior Chimp
*****
Posts: 5,825


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3389 on: January 08, 2021, 10:32:02 PM »

The MAGA seditious riot incited by Trump is like Mussolini's march on Rome which led to a successful fascist coup in 1922. Mussolini's black shirt thugs were just like the MAGA traitors of today.



Logged
President Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
Atlas Politician
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 41,788
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3390 on: January 08, 2021, 10:32:14 PM »

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.
If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.
They’ve already escalated well past the point of trying not to provoke them. If you want them to back down now, swift and decisive force is the only way to go.
It could get worse. It could absolutely get worse.
One thing I've gotten sick of hearing since Trump rode that escalator and personally despise is "no downsides to doing x, other side is already maximum x".
Logged
Buffalo Mayor Young Kim
LVScreenssuck
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,449


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3391 on: January 08, 2021, 10:35:13 PM »

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.
If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.
They’ve already escalated well past the point of trying not to provoke them. If you want them to back down now, swift and decisive force is the only way to go.
It could get worse. It could absolutely get worse.
They just stormed the Capitol in a plot to decapitate legislative leadership. The bleeding edge has already reached the point of war, we need to hit back as hard as possible, mass arrest of those involved and throw the damn book at them, so separate the vanguard from the rest.
Logged
President Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
Atlas Politician
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 41,788
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3392 on: January 08, 2021, 10:39:23 PM »

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.
If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.
They’ve already escalated well past the point of trying not to provoke them. If you want them to back down now, swift and decisive force is the only way to go.
It could get worse. It could absolutely get worse.
They just stormed the Capitol in a plot to decapitate legislative leadership. The bleeding edge has already reached the point of war, we need to hit back as hard as possible, mass arrest of those involved and throw the damn book at them, so separate the vanguard from the rest.

If you make decisions that conciously create the impression people are being silenced and/or locked up because they support Trump regardless of what happened on Capitol Hill, then that's such an efficient way of generating more incidents of this kind in the future. Whatever the proportion is who might support that now, it'll grow.
I could hardly think of a more counterproductive idea.
Logged
Rand
YaBB God
*****
Posts: 4,226
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3393 on: January 08, 2021, 10:40:31 PM »

Is Trump legally liable for the death of that cop? I’d say he should be. He has blood on his hands.

Blood on his hands, blood coming from his eyes. Blood coming from...wherever.

Do you have to make a sexual joke out of everything? Even over a matter as sensitive as someone's death? Particularly someone who died in the line of duty against these extremists?

Please explain how that was sexual. I’ll wait.
Logged
Buffalo Mayor Young Kim
LVScreenssuck
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,449


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3394 on: January 08, 2021, 10:46:02 PM »

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.
If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.
They’ve already escalated well past the point of trying not to provoke them. If you want them to back down now, swift and decisive force is the only way to go.
It could get worse. It could absolutely get worse.
They just stormed the Capitol in a plot to decapitate legislative leadership. The bleeding edge has already reached the point of war, we need to hit back as hard as possible, mass arrest of those involved and throw the damn book at them, so separate the vanguard from the rest.

If you make decisions that conciously create the impression people are being silenced and/or locked up because they support Trump regardless of what happened on Capitol Hill, then that's such an efficient way of generating more incidents of this kind in the future. Whatever the proportion is who might support that now, it'll grow.
I could hardly think of a more counterproductive idea.
Letting them walk or going with misdemeanors so now this is just politics as normal seems like it beats it pretty cleanly as bad ideas go
Logged
President Punxsutawney Phil
TimTurner
Atlas Politician
Atlas Legend
*****
Posts: 41,788
United States


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3395 on: January 08, 2021, 10:51:20 PM »
« Edited: January 08, 2021, 10:55:56 PM by Southern Governor Punxsutawney Phil »

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.
If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.
They’ve already escalated well past the point of trying not to provoke them. If you want them to back down now, swift and decisive force is the only way to go.
It could get worse. It could absolutely get worse.
They just stormed the Capitol in a plot to decapitate legislative leadership. The bleeding edge has already reached the point of war, we need to hit back as hard as possible, mass arrest of those involved and throw the damn book at them, so separate the vanguard from the rest.

If you make decisions that conciously create the impression people are being silenced and/or locked up because they support Trump regardless of what happened on Capitol Hill, then that's such an efficient way of generating more incidents of this kind in the future. Whatever the proportion is who might support that now, it'll grow.
I could hardly think of a more counterproductive idea.
Letting them walk or going with misdemeanors so now this is just politics as normal seems like it beats it pretty cleanly as bad ideas go
My proposition is charging the rioters involved in what happened for actions they actually did, and more or less stopping there*. If that means individual rioter X gets 10 years in prison due to a Trump EO, then so be it.
Regardless though, we need to continue protect legitimate activism on both the left and right and stand by our Bill of Rights. And at no point whatsoever should we give off the impression that the mere act of being a Trump supporter is being penalized.
*=Trump aides involved can also be sued and charged no problem
Logged
The Undefeatable Debbie Stabenow
slightlyburnttoast
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 2,049
United States


Political Matrix
E: -5.42, S: -5.43

P P
Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3396 on: January 08, 2021, 10:51:50 PM »

Is it just me, or is the very real possibility that Trump's crimes go well beyond incitement being criminally ignored? European security officials are suspecting that federal law enforcement was directed to enable or assist the attempt coup: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1

Certainly would explain some of the gross misconduct of Capitol Police, and Trump's refusal to activate the National Guard.
Logged
walleye26
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,418


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3397 on: January 08, 2021, 10:54:25 PM »

https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/08/us/online-extremism-inauguration-capitol-invs/index.html

Looks like there’s some more online right-wing chatter about the inauguration.
Logged
compucomp
Jr. Member
***
Posts: 1,587


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3398 on: January 08, 2021, 10:57:06 PM »

Is it just me, or is the very real possibility that Trump's crimes go well beyond incitement being criminally ignored? European security officials are suspecting that federal law enforcement was directed to enable or assist the attempt coup: https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-attempted-coup-federal-law-enforcement-capitol-police-2021-1

Certainly would explain some of the gross misconduct of Capitol Police, and Trump's refusal to activate the National Guard.

I've believed this since the revelation that Trump had blocked the DC National Guard from being deployed. The media has not really gone at the "Trump tried to overthrow the government" angle, and I agree with you, that's a big disservice.
Logged
Buffalo Mayor Young Kim
LVScreenssuck
Sr. Member
****
Posts: 3,449


Show only this user's posts in this thread
« Reply #3399 on: January 08, 2021, 11:01:09 PM »

Indeed. And it's important to note that fascist coups historically have not had the support of a majority of the population. In the last free and fair elections under the Weimar Republic, the NSDAP received roughly a third of the overall popular vote. The fact that anywhere from 10% to 20% of adults nationwide believe a violent assault on the U.S. Capitol was justified is a grave commentary on the state of the republic. That is why I am pushing back so hard against the suggestion that we shouldn't equate Trump's actions with what most Republicans support. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter if Republicans say they support these actions or not. If they are still willing to vote for the perpetrators of Wednesday's attacks, then we have every reason to believe that this will happen again, and next time with better planning and support. We need to take very seriously the reality that a significant number of Americans support a fascist coup against their own government —and we need to do everything in our power to ensure that number does not continue to grow.
If we want to avoid a larger percentage willing to do destructive things, we have to consider how not to act, how not to further radicalize potential stormers of Capitol buildings.
And that's the prism I primarily look at in regards to this.
It's not helpful to unduly give Trump fans reason to feel persecuted to a degree this thing might happen again and the numbers willing to participate grow.
They’ve already escalated well past the point of trying not to provoke them. If you want them to back down now, swift and decisive force is the only way to go.
It could get worse. It could absolutely get worse.
They just stormed the Capitol in a plot to decapitate legislative leadership. The bleeding edge has already reached the point of war, we need to hit back as hard as possible, mass arrest of those involved and throw the damn book at them, so separate the vanguard from the rest.

If you make decisions that conciously create the impression people are being silenced and/or locked up because they support Trump regardless of what happened on Capitol Hill, then that's such an efficient way of generating more incidents of this kind in the future. Whatever the proportion is who might support that now, it'll grow.
I could hardly think of a more counterproductive idea.
Letting them walk or going with misdemeanors so now this is just politics as normal seems like it beats it pretty cleanly as bad ideas go
My proposition is charging the rioters involved in what happened for actions they actually did, and more or less stopping there. If that means individual rioter X gets 10 years in prison due to a Trump EO, then so be it.
Regardless though, we need to continue protect legitimate activism on both the left and right and stand by our Bill of Rights. And at no point whatsoever should we give off the impression that the mere act of being a Trump supporter is being penalized.
What they did was Sedition and it carries a 20 year penalty. Some of them also did Felony Murder with special circumstances, which is a capital crime, but I’d suggest life for pr reasons.

I’m not sure why you are worried legitimate protest given that there was nothing of the sort at play here.
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 131 132 133 134 135 [136] 137 138 139 140 141 ... 197  
« previous next »
Jump to:  


Login with username, password and session length

Terms of Service - DMCA Agent and Policy - Privacy Policy and Cookies

Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines

Page created in 0.082 seconds with 8 queries.